I don't know about Finland but in Norway you'd be put on the first plane home where you would be met with a hefty fine / prison sentence and a lifetime ban from the army.
[QUOTE=farmatyr;40853068]I don't know about Finland but in Norway you'd be put on the first plane home where you would be met with a hefty fine / prison sentence and a lifetime ban from the army.[/QUOTE]
Well, finnish army has never been too strict with rules and protocols :v:
OP, what is going on here? And how does it have relevance to a corporal's grandfather?
[QUOTE=Ricool06;40853194]OP, what is going on here? And how does it have relevance to a corporal's grandfather?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=booster;40853190]Crazed corporal shooting blanks at his comrades.[/QUOTE]
the title was supposed to be a joke because all finnish folks had grandfathers that were in the winter war and/or continuation war.
meaning that their grandfathers dealed a lot with soviet human-wave doctrine.
[QUOTE=farmatyr;40853068]I don't know about Finland but in Norway you'd be put on the first plane home where you would be met with a hefty fine / prison sentence and a lifetime ban from the army.[/QUOTE]
It probably happens a couple of times, except it's not filmed.
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;40853241]the title was supposed to be a joke because all finnish folks had grandfathers that were in the winter war and/or continuation war.
meaning that their grandfathers dealed a lot with soviet human-wave doctrine.[/QUOTE]
Is this one of those jokes that you have to be finnish to understand?
I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;40866043]I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.[/QUOTE]
it wears off as they grow older
Man, if you did that in the US Army or Marines... pheewww
Then again we do have those trusty ol' caps on the ends
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;40866043]I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.[/QUOTE]
Because Sweden sucks.
Den glider in 6-1
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9aOSFf98wg[/media]
[QUOTE=Chris220;40865949]Is this one of those jokes that you have to be finnish to understand?[/QUOTE]no Raiskauskone is just really bad at summing up, explaining and making titles out of things
[QUOTE=Joazzz;40866851]no Raiskauskone is just really bad at summing up, explaining and making titles out of things[/QUOTE]
This
people somehow were upset by this, what with the boxes and that.
[QUOTE=Retardation;40866422]you mean the non-existent doctrine that is often wrongfully portrayed in media?[/QUOTE]
"non-existent"
pfffffft
[QUOTE=Raiskauskone;40867137]"non-existent"
pfffffft[/QUOTE]
He is right you know, the Red Army almost never actually used the infamous human-wave tactics, historians and scholars alike have often misinterpreted various journal testimonies of soldiers to further entertain the myth that the Red Army were a bunch of inexperienced cannon fodder that simply rushed enemy positions en masse, when in fact, little to absolutely no evidence exists of such tactics ever being employed.
Not only is the evidence nonexistent, there is also no rationalization for such tactics. The Soviets relied just as much on cunning diversions, stealth and brilliant use of modernized tactical advances to destroy their enemies as the West have and to fall for the myth that they were all barbaric and ruthless is to fall for blatant fascist World War 2 propaganda that attempted to portray the Soviets as violent murderers and rapists with absolutely no regard for their own.
I can surprise you further and tell you that commissars have also rarely shot their own men in the back. Although such things happened much more frequently than human waves.
[QUOTE=Melnek;40867418]He is right you know, the Red Army almost never actually used the infamous human-wave tactics, historians and scholars alike have often misinterpreted various journal testimonies of soldiers to further entertain the myth that the Red Army were a bunch of inexperienced cannon fodder that simply rushed enemy positions en masse, when in fact, little to absolutely no evidence exists of such tactics ever being employed.
Not only is the evidence nonexistent, there is also no rationalization for such tactics. The Soviets relied just as much on cunning diversions, stealth and brilliant use of modernized tactical advances to destroy their enemies as the West have and to fall for the myth that they were all barbaric and ruthless is to fall for blatant fascist World War 2 propaganda that attempted to portray the Soviets as violent murderers and rapists with absolutely no regard for their own.
I can surprise you further and tell you that commissars have also rarely shot their own men in the back. Although such things happened much more frequently than human waves.[/QUOTE]
Idk, I don't want to belittle the achievements of our grandfathers when it comes to defending the country during the winter war, but I highly doubt that the Soviets were very cunning or organized when it turned out like this:
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14597902/FP%20uploads/sovietfail.png[/img]
I was referring to the Eastern Front, rather than the Winter War. I strayed a little from the subject at hand.
The Soviets prepared insufficient number of troops for the Winter War. The Soviets prepared almost the same amount of infantry as for the winter war as the Finns themselves, partially because of belief in the unbeatable might of Soviet army, partially because of gross estimation of number of Finnish forces. The troops managed to break through when the correlation finally reached the logical 3:1, which is a "must-have" for any assault on such a well-prepared defense line.
Neither the Soviet tanks nor most of the Soviet artillery could break the the defense of Finnish pillboxes. The only artillery pieces that could do that were 203mm howitzers and the number of them wasn't too rich (12 pieces for the WHOLE FRONT). And guess who was responsible for an archaic state of Soviet artillery when every schoolboy knows that it takes strong artillery support to even consider a breakthrough of a powerful defense line?
Tukhachevsky who was so obsessed with production of tanks (Soviet T-26's couldn't overcome the Finnish pillboxes either) that he completely ignored the production and upgrade of artillery. Moreover, he was such a genius that believed that tanks would simply roll by themselves, without the support from infantry and without adequate development of motorized infantry and supplementary brigades to service the tanks.
Furthermore, Voroshilov, who was an awful tactician during the war (often sending in troops to attack fortified Finnish strongholds with no tank support, no air support and no artillery support), was later on replaced by Timoshenko - who has turned the tides of the war, ending the Red Army's streak of strategic failure and heavy casualties. Under Timoshenko's leadership, the Soviets succeeded in breaking through the Finnish Mannerheim Line on the Karelian Isthmus, prompting Finland to sue for peace in March.
[QUOTE=RautaPalli;40868192]Idk, I don't want to belittle the achievements of our grandfathers when it comes to defending the country during the winter war, but I highly doubt that the Soviets were very cunning or organized when it turned out like this:
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/14597902/FP%20uploads/sovietfail.png[/img][/QUOTE]
Throughout the entire two wars, wasn't it only like, 300k Finnish and German casualties to 1.2 million soviet ones?
Stalins purges also wouldn't have helped, considering pretty much all of the good generals were killed, plus the armies moral would've been destroyed.
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;40866043]I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.[/QUOTE]
Because people from Sweden think they're viewed as vikings and get all aspergers about it. Its quite common seeing other Swedes do it on this forum.
[QUOTE=Melnek;40868369]I was referring to the Eastern Front, rather than the Winter War. I strayed a little from the subject at hand.
The Soviets prepared insufficient number of troops for the Winter War. The Soviets prepared almost the same amount of infantry as for the winter war as the Finns themselves, partially because of belief in the unbeatable might of Soviet army, partially because of gross estimation of number of Finnish forces. The troops managed to break through when the correlation finally reached the logical 3:1, which is a "must-have" for any assault on such a well-prepared defense line.
Neither the Soviet tanks nor most of the Soviet artillery could break the the defense of Finnish pillboxes. The only artillery pieces that could do that were 203mm howitzers and the number of them wasn't too rich (12 pieces for the WHOLE FRONT). And guess who was responsible for an archaic state of Soviet artillery when every schoolboy knows that it takes strong artillery support to even consider a breakthrough of a powerful defense line?
Tukhachevsky who was so obsessed with production of tanks (Soviet T-26's couldn't overcome the Finnish pillboxes either) that he completely ignored the production and upgrade of artillery. Moreover, he was such a genius that believed that tanks would simply roll by themselves, without the support from infantry and without adequate development of motorized infantry and supplementary brigades to service the tanks.
Furthermore, Voroshilov, who was an awful tactician during the war (often sending in troops to attack fortified Finnish strongholds with no tank support, no air support and no artillery support), was later on replaced by Timoshenko - who has turned the tides of the war, ending the Red Army's streak of strategic failure and heavy casualties. Under Timoshenko's leadership, the Soviets succeeded in breaking through the Finnish Mannerheim Line on the Karelian Isthmus, prompting Finland to sue for peace in March.[/QUOTE]
Breaking through the Mannerheim line wasn't exactly a great achievement. For the most part, it was poorly prepared trenches and a concrete pillbox for every 1000 (the minimum) to 3000 (maximum) meters with limited fields of fire. I've been to what's left of the Mannerheim line (it isn't much, the Soviets destroyed most of the pillboxes after the Winter War and what remains is concrete shells) and the only explanation as to why the Soviets took so long to break through was the complete incompetence of Soviet military doctrine. Eventually they did break through, with support by heavy artillery and large quantities of armor supported by infantry after weeks of waiting for the temperature to rise.
To compare, the Mannerheim Line had only 101 concrete pillboxes. The Red Army claimed the Mannerheim line was stronger than the Maginot line, which had [b]5,600 concrete pillboxes.[/b] To add to that, the Mannerheim line was constructed out of 14,520 cubic meters of concrete and other building materials, which puts the amount of concrete used at less than what was used to build the Helsinki opera house. On top of that, the Mannerheim line had hardly any artillery beyond anti tank gun caliber.
Human wave attacks happened all the time during the Winter War, there are several documented ones, such as at the battle of Kollaa where Finnish machine gunners became mentally unstable after mowing down rank after rank of Soviet infantry that took cover behind their own frozen dead to advance. At Summa and Taipale as well, the Soviet policy was to attack Finnish defensive positions frontally, resulting in hundreds of dead and maimed troops. The Soviet policy for the entirety of the Winter War was to grossly underestimate the strength of Finnish positions and exaggerate the effectiveness of their frontal attacks, so for a long time Soviet military command actually believed that their attacks were being successful at causing casualties when in reality, they inflicted very little damage to Finnish positions while suffering massively by themselves. The situation within the Soviet army reached criticality shortly before the end of the war when numerous Soviet troop formations actually refused orders to continue with the attacks and insisted that a new form of attack operations be introduced.
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;40866043]I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.[/QUOTE]
more like americans
[QUOTE=FreddiRox!;40866043]I know this is irrelevant, but how come Scandinavians are the most patriotic people on the internet? Especially Swedes.[/QUOTE]
you mean finns
Melnek, the breakthrough at Mannerheim line was contained and portions of the line under soviet control even recaptured before the war ended.
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