[video=youtube;1d3aTkt6YaY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1d3aTkt6YaY[/video]
Obviously you can't just watch this video and call the argument over this done, but I feel it's a good counterpoint to the incredibly out of place "preview" of Hotline Miami 2 in the indie issue of PC Gamer, where Cara Ellison states that "The sexual violence at the end of [the] tutorial will single out a fifth of the female audience who have experienced sexual violence." Obviously under other circumstances she may have had a better point but the sexual violence is revealed moments later to just be part of a film recording, which according to Ellison "comes too late." I believe that this smearing of developers who want to get a story across and use sexual violence as a device in doing so is nothing good, and will just end in unneeded censorship of artists who choose to use computer games as their artistic medium.
You can read the original article here.
[URL]http://www.pcgamer.com/previews/hotline-miami-2-wrong-number/[/URL]
The biggest issue I have with his criticism is that he keeps saying shit like "THOSE people are delusional and are trying to censor everything."
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;41857200]The biggest issue I have with his criticism is that he keeps saying shit like "THOSE people are delusional and are trying to censor everything."[/QUOTE]
But he's right.
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;41857200]The biggest issue I have with his criticism is that he keeps saying shit like "THOSE people are delusional and are trying to censor everything."[/QUOTE]
What do you want him to say?
This entire issue is entirely fabricated by a bunch of no named websites trying to get some page views online. As stated in the video, why is it okay to brutally execute hundreds upon hundreds of gangsters but when rape comes up, it's such a controversy?
Is rape worse than murder? I'd argue that it isn't but that's another debate entirely.
but games like Hotline Miami are supposed to be pastiches of ultra-violence
the same way Clockwork Orange was supposed to be as a book.
saying something sucks does not mean you don't want it to exist. this guy blows shit so far out of proportion and speaks an opinion that seems to be a large consensus. not only that but it is perfectly fair to say you should warn people when you're going to have depictions of rape. no matter how funny "trigger warnings" are as a concept to most people on FP, being triggered by [b]depictions[/b] of rape, even in sprite art, more importantly with the context given in the game, is a very real thing, and I think it is totally fair to say there should be at least be some sort of disclaimer or warning in the game regarding that.
to say "thinking someone can be harmed by a depiction of rape is comparable to saying depictions of violence are harmful to society" is incredibly off the mark.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;41857292]This entire issue is entirely fabricated by a bunch of no named websites trying to get some page views online. As stated in the video, why is it okay to brutally execute hundreds upon hundreds of gangsters but when rape comes up, it's such a controversy?
Is rape worse than murder? I'd argue that it isn't but that's another debate entirely.[/QUOTE]
the obvious difference here is that people who have been murdered aren't alive to play a video game in which murder occurs...
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857405]saying something sucks does not mean you don't want it to exist. this guy blows shit so far out of proportion and speaks an opinion that seems to be a large consensus. not only that but it is perfectly fair to say you should warn people when you're going to have depictions of rape. no matter how funny "trigger warnings" are as a concept to most people on FP, being triggered by [b]depictions[/b] of rape, even in sprite art, more importantly with the context given in the game, is a very real thing, and I think it is totally fair to say there should be at least be some sort of disclaimer or warning in the game regarding that.
to say "thinking someone can be harmed by a depiction of rape is comparable to saying depictions of violence are harmful to society" is incredibly off the mark.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
the obvious difference here is that people who have been murdered aren't alive to play a video game in which murder occurs...[/QUOTE]
Game ratings are there for a reason. Sexual Violence is a tag given to M rated games. No doubt Hotline Miami 2 is an M rated game and while I can't actually find any ESRB review on it, I'm sure it has an appropriate one. Ratings aren't just for children.
well i can perfectly understand feeling very uneasy and freaked out about that scene, since that's probably exactly what they were going for. really, the whole point of Hotline Miami is feeling manipulated, so obviously you're going to come away from it feeling bad.
of course, given that women [I]are[/I] usually reduced to being completely helpless in games, it's perfectly natural to think of this as being another example of it when it's largely more of a deconstruction. and that's fine with me, although imho they should still put some sort of warning though, just to be on the safe side.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857405]saying something sucks does not mean you don't want it to exist. this guy blows shit so far out of proportion and speaks an opinion that seems to be a large consensus. not only that but it is perfectly fair to say you should warn people when you're going to have depictions of rape. no matter how funny "trigger warnings" are as a concept to most people on FP, being triggered by [b]depictions[/b] of rape, even in sprite art, more importantly with the context given in the game, is a very real thing, and I think it is totally fair to say there should be at least be some sort of disclaimer or warning in the game regarding that.
[/quote]
It's a mature rated game. They'll definitely get the "sexual content" classification when it's sent to PEGI/ESRB. If people can't handle the subject matter, why are they playing a mature rated title? I don't see banners on films with sexual assault content. Neither do the hundreds of television shows with similar subject matter. Novels don't have it either. Why should a video "game" be the exception? I hate the word game because it gives off the wrong impression and trivializes the medium for a lot of people.
[/quote]
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857405]
the obvious difference here is that people who have been murdered aren't alive to play a video game in which murder occurs...[/QUOTE]
I'm willing to bet there was a victim of attempted murder out there that enjoyed Hotline Miami. Is that not traumatizing in the same way? Same for people who were closed with a murdered relative/friend/spouse. What about the friends and families of murder victims? I never hear anyone complaining about the violence in these games.
Why is this game's content such an issue meanwhile no one has said a word about *insert book/television show/film* where rape is depicted or heavily implied?
[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;41857456]It's a mature rated game. They'll definitely get the "sexual content" classification when it's sent to PEGI/ESRB. If people can't handle the subject matter, why are they playing a mature rated title? I don't see banners on films with sexual assault content. Neither do the hundreds of television shows with similar subject matter. Novels don't have it either. Why should a video "game" be the exception? I hate the word game because it gives off the wrong impression and trivializes the medium for a lot of people.
[/quote]
[quote]I'm willing to bet there was a victim of attempted murder out there that enjoyed Hotline Miami. Is that not traumatizing in the same way? Same for people who were closed with a murdered relative/friend/spouse. What about the friends and families of murder victims? I never hear anyone complaining about the violence in these games.
Why is this game's content such an issue meanwhile no one has said a word about *insert book/television show/film* where rape is depicted or heavily implied?[/QUOTE]
there may be one but also understand it's a game ABOUT violence. that is extremely clear. there are near no games that have rape in them, and hotline miami clearly is not based around rape, and the original did not have it either, at that, so it would not be expected from a player.
and using other media which don't have warnings is not an excuse for another to get away with it.
i don't think you understand how traumatizing rape can be and the long lasting psychological effects.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857493]there may be one but also understand it's a game ABOUT violence. that is extremely clear. there are near no games that have rape in them, and hotline miami clearly is not based around rape, and the original did not have it either, at that, so it would not be expected from a player.
and using other media which don't have warnings is not an excuse for another to get away with it.
i don't think you understand how traumatizing rape can be and the long lasting psychological effects.[/QUOTE]
You're supposed to be shocked by it. You're supposed to be horrified by it. It isn't "fuck the girl bleeding out on the floor for bonus points". It isn't being "edgy" for the sake of being edgy. Hotline Miami has always been a pretty violent series.
I just don't believe a creator should HAVE to put a warning up on their game saying "this game has illustrations of sexual assault". When you buy a mature rated game, you should assume the worst and if you can't handle it, you shouldn't be playing Hotline Miami because rape is the least disgusting act committed in that game.
Also it was heavily implied that the drugged up "girlfriend" was being used by men at the club.
you're completely ignoring the part about rape survivors. we are not talking about shock, we are talking about severe mental trauma, we are talking about PTSD.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857493]
i don't think you understand how traumatizing rape can be and the long lasting psychological effects.[/QUOTE]
All acts of violence can be traumatizing and leave long lasting psychological effects. What is your argument? That because this one act is rarely portrayed in videogames, it makes it all the worse when it is? When you buy an M-rated game, you SHOULD expect the worst as Alex has said.
Such a shocking event can further the emotion or intensity of the story. There will always be those offended by it, it's their job to either get over it or avoid it.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857555]you're completely ignoring the part about rape survivors. we are not talking about shock, we are talking about severe mental trauma, we are talking about PTSD.[/QUOTE]
While I don't want to sounds like I'm making a small deal out of rape victims and the serious effects of it, I don't think that you should remove anything pertaining to rape while allowing massive amounts of gore, murder, and other general violent content because it [I]might[/I] trigger someone. Potentially.
that's a disgusting outlook to take. you really should all 1. consider other's feelings 2. understand what PTSD is.
we are not talking about being offended... and again, the game is about violence. sticking a rape scene, something that has occurred in what... two video games ever? that is not something that is or should be expected from a violent video game.
[QUOTE=Reds;41857571]While I don't want to sounds like I'm making a small deal out of rape victims and the serious effects of it, I don't think that you should remove anything pertaining to rape while allowing massive amounts of gore, murder, and other general violent content because it [I]might[/I] trigger someone. Potentially.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, not trying to downplay rape whatsoever, but it seems like Verdi is trying to downplay everything else and highlight the rape as especially bad when there are way more horrendous things in videogames, such as mass murdering innocents in an airport for literally nothing in the end as you are killed anyway (MW2), fighting ruthlessly for your survival in The Last of Us, ect ect... almost every videogame involves violence of some form, and rape is just another form of violence.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857584]that's a disgusting outlook to take. you really should all 1. consider other's feelings 2. understand what PTSD is.
we are not talking about being offended... and again, the game is about violence. sticking a rape scene, something that has occurred in what... two video games ever? that is not something that is or should be expected from a violent video game.[/QUOTE]
Oh man, that's a great joke about reactions to-wait, you're actually being serious? Wow.
[QUOTE=Reds;41857571]While I don't want to sounds like I'm making a small deal out of rape victims and the serious effects of it, I don't think that you should remove anything pertaining to rape while allowing massive amounts of gore, murder, and other general violent content because it [I]might[/I] trigger someone. Potentially.[/QUOTE]
i did not say anything about removing anything. read my posts. a warning. its as simple as that.
of course you shouldn't remove it, but you should consider the extreme negative effects it could have on someone if they are not aware it is in the game.
and again, rape is vastly different from general violence and extremely rarely depicted even in violent videogames. gore is implied in the mere premise of hotline miami, rape is not.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Reds;41857591]Oh man, that's a great joke about reactions to-wait, you're actually being serious? Wow.[/QUOTE]
yeah wow indeed
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857584]that's a disgusting outlook to take. you really should all 1. consider other's feelings 2. understand what PTSD is.
we are not talking about being offended... and again, the game is about violence. sticking a rape scene, something that has occurred in what... two video games ever? that is not something that is or should be expected from a violent video game.[/QUOTE]
IIRC Pyramid Head rapes one of the nurses in Silent Hill. While obviously there is a disconnect as they aren't even really human, it's way more graphic and real than the 50 pixel counterpart in Hotline Miami 2.
No warning whatsoever, you just peek through a door and get a full view of it.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857555]you're completely ignoring the part about rape survivors. we are not talking about shock, we are talking about severe mental trauma, we are talking about PTSD.[/QUOTE]
And I understand and sympathize with that but a lot of people are calling for the content to be cut and you're asking for the game to have a warning. That's what the rating system is for and that should be enough. Content shouldn't have to be cut. Content shouldn't need an additional warning.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857493]there may be one but also understand it's a game ABOUT violence. that is extremely clear. there are near no games that have rape in them, and hotline miami clearly is not based around rape,[B] and the original did not have it either[/B][/QUOTE]
So did you like, not play the same game as everyone else or what
[QUOTE=Hunterdnrc;41857608]So did you like, not play the same game as everyone else or what[/QUOTE]
It's not in his steam games list so I'd go out on a limb and say he didn't play the second one either.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41857598]IIRC Pyramid Head rapes one of the nurses in Silent Hill. While obviously there is a disconnect as they aren't even really human, it's way more graphic and real than the 50 pixel counterpart in Hotline Miami 2.
No warning whatsoever, you just peek through a door and get a full view of it.[/QUOTE]
that's literally the one example ever.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857594]i did not say anything about removing anything. read my posts. a warning. its as simple as that.
of course you shouldn't remove it, but you should consider the extreme negative effects it could have on someone if they are not aware it is in the game.
and again, rape is vastly different from general violence and extremely rarely depicted even in violent videogames. gore is implied in the mere premise of hotline miami, rape is not.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
yeah wow indeed[/QUOTE]
If people go into Hotline Miami knowing it's about a group of mass murderers, that should give some clue as what to expect when you see "sexual content" in the rating classification of Hotline Miami. I doubt that people will be expecting some sort of love making scene.
[QUOTE=Hunterdnrc;41857608]So did you like, not play the same game as everyone else or what[/QUOTE]
show me the rape scene in hotline miami. thanks
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41857614]It's not in his steam games list so I'd go out on a limb and say he didn't play the second one either.[/QUOTE]
i played it, did not enjoy the gameplay.
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Alex_DeLarge;41857606]And I understand and sympathize with that but a lot of people are calling for the content to be cut and you're asking for the game to have a warning. That's what the rating system is for and that should be enough. Content shouldn't have to be cut. Content shouldn't need an additional warning.[/QUOTE]
i dont agree with those people
im not saying content should be cut
so dont argue those points at me
because i am not refuting them
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41857590]Yeah, not trying to downplay rape whatsoever, but it seems like Verdi is trying to downplay everything else and highlight the rape as especially bad when there are way more horrendous things in videogames, such as mass murdering innocents in an airport for literally nothing in the end as you are killed anyway (MW2), fighting ruthlessly for your survival in The Last of Us, ect ect... almost every videogame involves violence of some form, and rape is just another form of violence.[/QUOTE]
again, rape and violence are so far apart. it's so fucking simple. I'll explain it one last time.
you should warn people when there is rape in your game so they know what they are going to see and can at the very least mentally prepare for it, and more importantly choose not to play it because of said rape scene, when they would have otherwise. you KNOW violence is in hotline miami, you do not know rape is. violence is the premise of the game, rape is not.
if someone can be triggered by gore or violence, they will avoid all violent games
if someone can be triggered by rape, they need to know if rape is or is not in a game because again rape has been depicted in videogames all of maybe three times. it is not a genre, it is not something one should expect, it is vastly different from violence in the way people react to it and how it is presented in videogames.
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857619]that's literally the one example ever.[/QUOTE]
While that's obviously wrong, does that change anything? If a game suddenly had a scene involving abortion, castration (I'm sure this one exists), ect other horrible acts?
[editline]16th August 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vedicardi;41857622]
again, rape and violence are so far apart. it's so fucking simple. I'll explain it one last time.
you should warn people when there is rape in your game so they know what they are going to see and can at the very least mentally prepare for it, and more importantly choose not to play it because of said rape scene, when they would have otherwise. you KNOW violence is in hotline miami, you do not know rape is. violence is the premise of the game, rape is not.
if someone can be triggered by gore or violence, they will avoid all violent games
if someone can be triggered by rape, they need to know if rape is or is not in a game because again rape has been depicted in videogames all of maybe three times. it is not a genre, it is not something one should expect, it is vastly different from violence in the way people react to it and how it is presented in videogames.[/QUOTE]
And again, what is ESRB there for? You kind of disregarded that in your post and kept talking about how Hotline Miami 2 is focusing on rape, even though it's not and as far as I know it's a one off scene in the tutorial that lasts for a few seconds.
you don't have to explain to me why there isn't much rape in games, i get that. i am saying in this game, one of the few exceptions to that, there should be a warning so those with PTSD will not be triggered.
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41857590]Yeah, not trying to downplay rape whatsoever, but it seems like Verdi is trying to downplay everything else and highlight the rape as especially bad when there are way more horrendous things in videogames, such as mass murdering innocents in an airport for literally nothing in the end as you are killed anyway (MW2), fighting ruthlessly for your survival in The Last of Us, ect ect... almost every videogame involves violence of some form, and rape is just another form of violence.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that murdering an entire airport with huge assault rifles is really shocking considering that the entire fucking game is about killing people with guns.
I'd agree with you if this was about somebody getting offended about rape in a videogame ENTIRELY about rape, but it's not. Not at all. Adding a disclaimer saying "This game includes shit like shooting guys, torture, RAPE, etc etc" wouldn't detract from the artist's original intent at all.
i have no fucking clue what conclusion you guys are trying to pull from this argument but it shouldn't have gone any further than this post:
[QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;41857433]Game ratings are there for a reason. [B]Sexual Violence is a tag given to M rated games[/B]. No doubt Hotline Miami 2 is an M rated game and while I can't actually find any ESRB review on it, I'm sure it has an appropriate one. Ratings aren't just for children.[/QUOTE]
esrb categories effectively function as trigger warnings so i dont see what the big deal is
no one's getting censored and people who are affected by depictions of rape can do their research before purchasing. everybody wins, or more correctly, everybody's already won
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
