[video=youtube;7TJOjAKL7Qs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7TJOjAKL7Qs[/video]
tl;dw stop falling for media misdirections when it comes to protests and riots
Remember how the media concentrated on the whole torch thing and the whole car thing and the whole "jews will not replace us" when they covered Charlottesville? I don't remember anyone complaining about media bias then. Because it wasn't bias, it actually showed you everything that you needed to know about the Charlottesville nazis. It's what I wanted to know, I didn't care about the peaceful protesters defending their free speech right to be racist.
The lengths leftist media like Vox goes to to defend Antifa is ridiculous.
Also, what do you expect reporting on shit like this to look like? "Look at all these peaceful anti-racism protesters! Please ignore all the burning shit and the property damage going on around the block"
like I'm going to be listening to what vox has to say anytime soon
Listen and believe.
So if peaceful protesters starts setting fire to cars and destory storefronts, we should NOT focus on it?
Because... why exactly?
[QUOTE=DMGaina;52742682]So if peaceful protesters starts setting fire to cars and destory storefronts, we should NOT focus on it?
Because... why exactly?[/QUOTE]
That's not the point of the video at all.
The point is to stop exaggerating the numbers of those who are causing hell and breaking shit. To stop focusing solely on them and painting the entire counter-protest as a bunch of hooligans out to smash shit up. As that is quite literally all I've ever seen the media for for any left-leaning counter protests (well, up until the Nazis actually fucking killed someone, it took a death for them to stop misrepresenting the counter protests).
The people who take part in these things and start breaking shit are as a rule of thumb a minuscule fraction of the number of people there. Yes, even when Antifa goons show up. People using the situation as an excuse to break stuff, not to further their actual cause. The video brings up the Occupy movements which are a great example of this misreporting. Most of the Occupy movements around the world were peaceful, people just sat there in their pseudo-villages, protested and chanted. It was a super-minority of those who attended that broke shit in the name of the movement, and of everyone who broke shit a good number of them were opportunists who knew it'd be a great excuse to do so. Mob mentality and retardation are not a good combination after all.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52742363]Remember how the media concentrated on the whole torch thing and the whole car thing and the whole "jews will not replace us" when they covered Charlottesville? I don't remember anyone complaining about media bias then. Because it wasn't bias, it actually showed you everything that you needed to know about the Charlottesville nazis. It's what I wanted to know, I didn't care about the peaceful protesters defending their free speech right to be racist.
The lengths leftist media like Vox goes to to defend Antifa is ridiculous.
Also, what do you expect reporting on shit like this to look like? "Look at all these peaceful anti-racism protesters! Please ignore all the burning shit and the property damage going on around the block"[/QUOTE]
It was a non lethal bike lock.
Similar to the other thread about Antifa and the media, this is less an outright defense of Antifa and their tactics (whom the author calls "fringe" while highlighting the peaceful protests) and more about how the media shapes narratives by distorting facts and images. The video also talks about BLM protests and Occupy Wallstreet and I don't really see anything wrong with it other than the casual dismissal of criticism of Antifa's tactics, which I think is shortsighted.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52742363]
The lengths leftist media like Vox goes to to defend Antifa is ridiculous.
[/QUOTE]
Vox's half-hearted attempt to defend Antifa is drastically outnumbered by other leftist media outlets like CNN and WaPo playing host to anti-Antifa opinion pieces and editorials. If you watched the video you would have seen that.
[QUOTE=cheetahben;52742378]like I'm going to be listening to what vox has to say anytime soon[/QUOTE]
Better to listen to the people who can't even pronounce Antifa right. Everyone on FP agrees that the MSM is shit but when someone calls them out on their dishonesty its disregarded because it's about Antifa or Black Lives Matter.
[editline]3rd October 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=DMGaina;52742682]So if peaceful protesters starts setting fire to cars and destory storefronts, we should NOT focus on it?
Because... why exactly?[/QUOTE]
The media should absolutely cover it. And they should absolutely cover the fact that there were thousands of protesters marching and demonstrating peacefully before Antifa showed up. And they shouldn't write misleading headlines about the event to make it seem more violent than it was.
If it were not for their symbol bearing such a resemblance to the anarcho-communist flag, I would be willing to believe that their main cause is to fight fascism.
This isn't defending Antifa, it's defending the peaceful protesters who have their cause hijacked by a fringe group and their message ignored by the media in favour of violent spectacle.
[QUOTE=squids_eye;52743372]This isn't defending Antifa, it's defending the peaceful protesters who have their cause hijacked by a fringe group and their message ignored by the media in favour of violent spectacle.[/QUOTE]
The cause wouldn't be hijacked by a fringe group if peaceful protesters didn't coddle the said fringe group.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52743712]The cause wouldn't be hijacked by a fringe group if peaceful protesters didn't coddle the said fringe group.[/QUOTE]
...are you even remotely aware of what you're talking about? Most of the peaceful protesters at these things are not fans of Antifa goons who break shit. The only real benefit they bring is that you get a (angry) meat-shield between you and the neo-nazis you're likely counter protesting.
The counter-protestors are not "coddling" Antifa, they're kinda busy counter-protesting and being lumped in with Antifa by the police when the water cannons come out because "fuck it lol who cares".
[QUOTE=hexpunK;52743724]...are you even remotely aware of what you're talking about? Most of the peaceful protesters at these things are not fans of Antifa goons who break shit. The only real benefit they bring is that you get a (angry) meat-shield between you and the neo-nazis you're likely counter protesting.
The counter-protestors are not "coddling" Antifa, they're kinda busy counter-protesting and being lumped in with Antifa by the police when the water cannons come out because "fuck it lol who cares".[/QUOTE]
It's pretty hard for me to believe that when most leftists struggle to even denounce antifa.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52743712]The cause wouldn't be hijacked by a fringe group if peaceful protesters didn't coddle the said fringe group.[/QUOTE]
This claim doesn't make much sense since peaceful protesters want their protest to remain well... peaceful because
1) for their own safety
2) to get their message across
Why would they work against their own interest?
[QUOTE=Coolboy;52743779]This claim doesn't make much sense since peaceful protesters want their protest to remain well... peaceful because
1) for their own safety
2) to get their message across
Why would they work against their interest?[/QUOTE]
Maybe because antifa has the same goals that the peaceful protesters do?
The only solution to fix this problem is that the nazis are going to need their own Fringe group.
Bring in the KKK with their white outfits so the anti-fa fringe can have their brawls.
While the others are tearing eachother apart the peaceful protestors can protest normally.
But in all seriousness Anti-Fa should shun and kick out the fringe group, Hell even kick their ass.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52743791]Maybe because antifa has the same goals that the peaceful protesters do?[/QUOTE]
Obviously not, since as I described above, it would jeopardize the entire point of a peaceful protest, don't tell me you don't see the paradox that arises with your argument.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52743767]It's pretty hard for me to believe that when most leftists struggle to even denounce antifa.[/QUOTE]
Denouncing fascism and denouncing violence are not mutually exclusive, but since you seem to use the label 'leftists' in a very broad, oversimplifeing manner makes me think you choose to believe what you laid out as it better fits your worldview.
Did you actually see the part of the video where the mention of the violence shuts down any positive effect the protest might have had.
[QUOTE=Coolboy;52743875]Obviously not, since as I described above, it would jeopardize the entire point of a peaceful protest, don't tell me you don't see the paradox that arises with your argument.
Denouncing fascism and denouncing violence are not mutually exclusive, but since you seem to use the label 'leftists' in a very broad, oversimplifeing manner makes me think you choose to believe what you laid out as it better fits your worldview.
Did you actually see the part of the video where the mention of the violence shuts down any positive effect the protest might have had.[/QUOTE]
You're going to go pedantic on me because of my use of the word leftist?
You're not denouncing antifa yourself right now, you're denouncing "violence". No shit you don't like violence, nobody likes violence, it's both easy and meaningless to say that you don't like violence.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52743930]You're going to go pedantic on me because of my use of the word leftist?
You're not denouncing antifa yourself right now, you're denouncing "violence". No shit you don't like violence, nobody likes violence, it's both easy and meaningless to say that you don't like violence.[/QUOTE]
Sure I am denouncing violence and anyone using it, implying antifa.
And it is not meaningless, far from it, be the portion of the people named the black block, antifa, or even unnamed. It makes the message of the peaceful protest center, not those that commit violence under the guise of one.
You brushed over a part of the poltical spectrum, I am pointing out that I find you point even less convincing because of it. Not that it matters much to be of any political affiliation to peacefully protest.
You have not addressed even my main point, why go out and peacefully protest but "coddle" with violent groups that just leads to corrupting the message, turning away potential listeners and sympathizers and escalating even more violence from counter protestors and attention from law enforcement, putting yourself in danger for a lost message that now falls on shut ears.
It just doesn't make sense.
comrade vox
Oh hey its Vox, the ones that called the Google memo "Anti Diversity", well at least it was not as bad as the Gizmodo article
Antifa is a mess, just causing more problems than solutions, where they put black clad and mask so they can do what they want whether its legal or not, interrupting the actual peaceful protesters from the left who want nothing of that shit
Cracked did a way better job with the "How to actually cover stories about Antifa" video
And I cant fucking believe im giving the praise to Cracked
James Damore called himself @firedfortruth and toured the dumbest right wing talk shows while citing the red pill documentary after being fired so I think they might have been on to something.
There are justifications for antifa.
1. They stand in front of the peaceful protest.
Why is this good? They protect the protesters, ideally not getting baited. Bait response and PR is probably their weakest point and unlikely to change due to not being a real organization.
2. If there wasn't a protest, there would still be a protest.
How would people react if nazis were marching down the street? They'll either be scared into their homes (successful march showing the power of white supremacy) or some of them will come out, get the shit beat out of them by nazis if they're black or if they tell the nazis they suck (successful march).
3. Property damage can be good for social change.
This one is REALLY context dependent. Its purpose is to give a $$$ cost to the government for doing something bad. It's hard to justify in most cases that aren't BLM saying "killing an innocent black person without punishing the officer will cost your city a few million $" but if the cost of a rally is high then the nazis can say bye bye to other rally permits.
4. Fighting nazis is self defense.
Nazis wants to kill me. I'm thankful that someone wants to risk their lives to keep them down. Even wrecking the place and getting a "both sides" narrative harms the nazis more than say: "the left" or "the communists" or whatever you want thanks to the plausible deniability that any member of antifa is a commie unless they're holding a banner or it's just so disorganized, decentralized and unified only in opposition to one thing that it's not a representative sample of any ideology.
Overall debatable don't throw them under the bus because your availability heuristics are skewed by the news we get here on fp.
[editline]4th October 2017[/editline]
Also the masks are so that nazis don't come to their houses and kill them later.
I was not referring to James Damore Himself, I know the guy has said some really dumb shit.
I was referring to the Memo itself, which i would still not call antidiversity at all
Even with these justifications I think Antifa is doing a mistake, if they keep fighting the nazis with violence then the later ones will use this to their advantage to make them look like the victims, a pretty cowardly move that sadly tends to work surprisingly well, and the media takes advantage of it
And yeah I should have said both sides rathern than the left, but I was not referring to the communists, I was mostly referring to the liberals, whose are usually left winged
And no, i dont think they put masks so the nazis can't come to their and kill them, at least not all of antifa, I think they have them so they can cause property damage and not be caught by cameras,
And if the nazis ever did that, I think it would be a really self destructive move.
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]1. They stand in front of the peaceful protest.
Why is this good? They protect the protesters, ideally not getting baited. Bait response and PR is probably their weakest point and unlikely to change due to not being a real organization. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, cause the police totally don't lock down an entire city block and march in with tear gas and riot gear when people start rioting.
Inciting violence results in escalating force from law enforcement. To say otherwise is simply objectively wrong.
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]3. Property damage can be good for social change.
This one is REALLY context dependent. Its purpose is to give a $$$ cost to the government for doing something bad. It's hard to justify in most cases that aren't BLM saying "killing an innocent black person without punishing the officer will cost your city a few million $" but if the cost of a rally is high then the nazis can say bye bye to other rally permits.
4. Fighting nazis is self defense.
Nazis wants to kill me. I'm thankful that someone wants to risk their lives to keep them down. Even wrecking the place and getting a "both sides" narrative harms the nazis more than say: "the left" or "the communists" or whatever you want thanks to the plausible deniability that any member of antifa is a commie unless they're holding a banner or it's just so disorganized, decentralized and unified only in opposition to one thing that it's not a representative sample of any ideology.
[/QUOTE]
You are essentially saying that you think it's perfectly OK to kill anyone that you disagree with. No matter how you splice it you are attempting to justify violence. It's not self defense when you go out and attack someone. It doesn't matter how you try to whitewash it, you are attempting to justify violence against groups that disagree with you.
Of course that's why they should not take the bait as easily.
Charlottesville is a situation that breaks your hypothetical where the police didn't do anything.
If there's police literally standing between them then they're a liability because it's distracting.
[QUOTE=rutolfus;52747322]I was not referring to James Damore Himself, I know the guy has said some really dumb shit.
I was referring to the Memo itself, which i would still not call antidiversity at all
Even with these justifications I think Antifa is doing a mistake, if they keep fighting the nazis with violence then the later ones will use this to their advantage to make them look like the victims, a pretty cowardly move that sadly tends to work surprisingly well, and the media takes advantage of it
And yeah I should have said both sides rathern than the left, but I was not referring to the communists, I was mostly referring to the liberals, whose are usually left winged
And no, i dont think they put masks so the nazis can't come to their and kill them, at least not all of antifa, I think they have them so they can cause property damage and not be caught by cameras,
And if the nazis ever did that, I think it would be a really self destructive move.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Meeting the nazis with violence actually just makes the antifa people look bad.
However, we've also got situations like the one mentioned in the cracked video, i.e. that scene where a neo-nazi sprayed pepper spray into the eyes of the antifa guys and then the antifa guys pushed them back with their shields. It's cases like that where Antifa get blamed for being the "violent black-wearing thugs" even though they were coaxed into violence by the neo-nazi people.
The neo-nazis have a strategy of tempting the antifa into violence, usually by threatening them and sometimes by attacking them first because they know antifa will get the blame regardless.
Imagine you were in that situation, the crowd mentality makes it difficult to sit down and make a rational decision, you have no idea what's going on. People are making threatening gestures towards you, pepper spraying you, waving weapons in your face and basically doing everything they can to provoke you and the people around you. You're the first line of defence, you're protecting the people behind you. At any moment, someone could decide to attack you, or a car could drive through the crowd and run you over.
Inevitably, somebody, either the antifa or the neo-nazis, is going to get too close on one side of the confrontation, somebody else is going to react and then everybody is going to rush forward because you have no choice in the matter. Then you're basically just defending yourself because you have no idea whether somebody is going to physically attack you or not. Somebody may be using the scuffle as an excuse to actually assault somebody and get away with it by claiming it was self-defence.
No matter what happens in this situation the antifa people are going to get blamed for being responsible, regardless of who actually started the fight (which is always really subjective anyway).
As for why the antifa guys wear masks, I suspect it's to avoid being arrested for rioting if they get separated from the group. The neo-nazi guys don't need to wear masks because they don't tend to get caught. They use cowardly tactics, attempting to provoke violence and then running back behind the line, and tend to never leave the group, which means they never get separated.
The police also don't want to intercede when there are two large groups of people standing off against one another, because the protesters usually outnumber the police. The standard procedure is to cordon off the area and contain the violence instead. They only manage to arrest someone when they get separated from one of the two groups, which usually means antifa when they break ranks.
[video=youtube;yT9bit2-1pg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yT9bit2-1pg[/video]
So if it's basically impossible to form a line and confront the neo-nazi group without being tempted into violence, what's the alternative? Well the only real alternative solution is to move backwards when the neo-nazi group makes threatening gestures and moves forward- in order to avoid confrontation. This is what the non-antifa people generally do, because they want to avoid violence.
The problem with this is that you give more and more ground to the neo-nazis until the non-antifa protestors are basically confined into a small area between the police wall and the neo-nazi line. At this point, the protestors are basically forcibly pushed into the police wall and now the police start getting nervous and pushing back. Between the wall of neo-nazis and the police wall, people are now getting pushed back and forth and inevitably things get violent because the protestors get more and more nervous and police think they are being assaulted by the protestors rather than the protestors having nowhere to go. Once again, the protestors will get the blame for instigating the violence.
Thanks for the info!
Man, I feel like there should be at least one way to solve this problem with the nazies without resorting to violence or retreating
I dont know what this option is, but i know there must be at least one.
Its like rpg games (fallout for example), where sometimes there is that third option that is really hard to get.
And if there's one, I dont know if everyone is going to choose that option, which i dont think so
This year is such a shitshow isn't it?
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]
4. Fighting nazis is self defense.
Nazis wants to kill me.[/QUOTE]
Self defense is only constituted as self defense when someone gets threatened into being attacked or physically attacked, use another word if you may want, but "self defense" as justifications for beating a group may not always apply for those who doesn't always physically attack others (and said kind of people can actually use self-victimization for their ways), it leads to debates that just doesn't resolve, or which people try to use their advantage as they dismantle semantics hard
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]
Also the masks are so that nazis don't come to their houses and kill them later.[/QUOTE]
I mean, they can just easily rip off their mask, in which they actually do, a simple mask as a method of protecting your identity and security in an often violent rally sounds very weak, and probably makes more sense as if they just use it to not be identified in general by people inside and outside the rally
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]There are justifications for antifa.
1. They stand in front of the peaceful protest.
Why is this good? They protect the protesters, ideally not getting baited. Bait response and PR is probably their weakest point and unlikely to change due to not being a real organization. [/QUOTE]
Thanks for being living proof of me being right earlier.
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]2. If there wasn't a protest, there would still be a protest.
How would people react if nazis were marching down the street? They'll either be scared into their homes (successful march showing the power of white supremacy) or some of them will come out, get the shit beat out of them by nazis if they're black or if they tell the nazis they suck (successful march). [/QUOTE]
If nazis are marching down the street, literally everyone tells them that they fucking suck. This isn't a hypothetical situation, that's exactly what happened.
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]3. Property damage can be good for social change.
This one is REALLY context dependent. Its purpose is to give a $$$ cost to the government for doing something bad. It's hard to justify in most cases that aren't BLM saying "killing an innocent black person without punishing the officer will cost your city a few million $" but if the cost of a rally is high then the nazis can say bye bye to other rally permits. [/QUOTE]
What about the people who actually own the destroyed property, though?
[QUOTE=01271;52747089]4. Fighting nazis is self defense.
Nazis wants to kill me. I'm thankful that someone wants to risk their lives to keep them down. Even wrecking the place and getting a "both sides" narrative harms the nazis more than say: "the left" or "the communists" or whatever you want thanks to the plausible deniability that any member of antifa is a commie unless they're holding a banner or it's just so disorganized, decentralized and unified only in opposition to one thing that it's not a representative sample of any ideology.[/QUOTE]
Antifa wants to kill me. wtf i love nazis now
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52747883]Thanks for being living proof of me being right earlier.[/quote]
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52747883]If nazis are marching down the street, literally everyone tells them that they fucking suck. This isn't a hypothetical situation, that's exactly what happened.[/quote]
My example of someone who was opposing the march wasn't good enough. Sorry. The march and the nazis are taunting people to come fight them and it's a win if they do (and they're angry) and if they don't. The nazis will use violence and fear on those who aren't organized enough. They're domestic terrorists that don't earn the title of domestic terrorists because they're white.
They have more coordination than pop-up home defenders.
Also what happened to
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52573264]He's a nazi, it's only a matter of time until they start killing more people if their hate is left ignored. [/QUOTE]
from [url]https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1575058&p=52573264#post52573264[/url]
It's not like anything changed, you still don't like nazis but you should try on the aspect of "this is a part of what opposition to nazis entails, this is what we get for now".
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52747883]What about the people who actually own the destroyed property, though?[/quote]
They lost money and dignity and that's bad. It's extra pressure for the thing not to happen again which is good. Weighing that really depends on what is being protested which is why I picked a specific example.
[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52747883]Antifa wants to kill me. wtf i love nazis now[/QUOTE]
If you weren't just making fun of me and the nazis' purpose was to stop antifa and antifa's goal was to kill you then that would be a good justification.
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