• Game Makers Toolkit - Should Dark Souls have an Easy Mode?
    57 replies, posted
[video=youtube;K5tPJDZv_VE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5tPJDZv_VE[/video]
It already has one anyway. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbR7MYGPR6c[/media]
[QUOTE=mooman1080;50198324]It already has one anyway.[/QUOTE] I wonder, did you watch the video at all? [editline]25th April 2016[/editline] Do people who post on video threads ever take the time to actually watch the videos in question? Sometimes it feels like they make assumptions purely based on the video title.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50198386]I wonder, did you watch the video at all? [editline]25th April 2016[/editline] Do people who post on video threads ever take the time to actually watch the videos in question? Sometimes it feels like they make assumptions purely based on the video title.[/QUOTE] I did watch the video, as an invader though I get sour about phantoms and feel the need to post that when ever the easy mode discussion gets brought up.
[QUOTE=StrawberryClock;50198386]I wonder, did you watch the video at all? [/QUOTE] What do you mean? It shows people complaining how it should have an easy mode then it shows every boss killed by phantoms while the player just walks around. I think that's what he means by "easy mode" in this case.
I sort of get the backlash, Dark Souls being difficult is a huge part of the game and it truly enhances the mechanics. Buuut, they're not taking anything away, just pick the harder difficulty mode if you want the true Dark Souls experience. Plus "hiding" a lower difficulty mode inside the game is kind of an oxymoron isn't it?
I wouldn't mind a slightly easier mode in the original but that's because I'm shit at coordinating myself in this game... And I can understand some other people having issues with it. It's pretty unrelenting and at times kinda feels overly so? Advancing doesn't always feel that fun, more like a "what kinda bullshit is it gonna throw at me now" kinda thing. Keep in mind that I literally just started playing this game yesterday and am not really an avid action rpg(???) player but I can appreciate how it is now. Just gonna take me a while to beat it. Easy mode doesn't necessarily mean make it a cake-walk, but little things like slightly more health or less health on the bosses might make it a little less exhausting to try and get through.
[QUOTE=SgtTupelo;50198423]What do you mean? It shows people complaining how it should have an easy mode then it shows every boss killed by phantoms while the player just walks around. I think that's what he means by "easy mode" in this case.[/QUOTE] I was referring to the video in the OP. It's in the latter portion of the video but he already mentions that it may not be necessary to have a difficulty slider when a game already has built-in mechanics to make it easier, such as phantoms and exploiting certain builds and mechanics. Basically the fact that his post is redundant makes it seem like he hasn't watched the video.
I seriously doubt that anyone who rated the video so far has actually watched the video. :v: To recap the video for anyone who got triggered by the title: If the difficulty gets lowered, it would ruin the experience and the vision of the developers; there is an "easy mode" already in the game, it requires the players to find and master their own playstyle and uncover the mechanics that make the game easier.
If you had asked me the same question just after finishing Dark Souls 2, I'd say that having an easy mode would detract from the experience and remove the unique and rewarding aspects of Dark Souls. After having finished Dark Souls 3 however, I feel that maybe difficulty levels are warranted in some ways as I believe many veterans at this point steamrolled the game. I'm not sure I'd like a mode that is easier than what was established in previous games, but if the difficulty is to be tuned up to challenge veteran players, then maybe a distinction in difficulties needs to be made. And no, NG+ is not the same as playing on another difficulty(my NG+ run was both faster and easier than my NG run in DS3 as I already knew all the mob patterns, locations, bosses).
[QUOTE=DMGaina;50198496]I seriously doubt that anyone who rated the video so far has actually watched the video. :v: To recap the video for anyone who got triggered by the title: If the difficulty gets lowered, it would ruin the experience and the vision of the developers; there is an "easy mode" already in the game, it requires the players to find and master their own playstyle and uncover the mechanics that make the game easier.[/QUOTE] Do you expect different ratings when the title of a video is the qeustion it self "should the game have an easy mode?" Regardless of what conclusion the video makes the ratings are gonna be about the initial qeustion most of the time.
Kinda makes me wonder if AI Directors are ever gonna be a thing that catches on. Basically a small AI that interprets how stressed-out and hardworking you are and based on that adjusts enemy difficulty and loot probability to make sure you're neither frustrated nor bored. Tho in Dark Soul's case specifically that probably wouldn't work as learning patterns is a huge part of what makes Dark Souls manageable even if you're a bad player. As long as you can keep yourself motivated anyway. [QUOTE=mooman1080;50198510]Do you expect different ratings when the title of a video is the qeustion it self "should the game have an easy mode?" Regardless of what conclusion the video makes the ratings are gonna be about the initial qeustion most of the time.[/QUOTE] Which I find kinda silly considering it's a rhetorical question for the audience that's just supposed to introduce the examination of difficulty modes affecting narrative, and organic gameplay alternatives to the difficulty modes you'd select in a menu. I mean, it's not like this is an actual person asking a question or someone polling Facepunch, it's just a headline.
[QUOTE=momoiro;50198509]If you had asked me the same question just after finishing Dark Souls 2, I'd say that having an easy mode would detract from the experience and remove the unique and rewarding aspects of Dark Souls. After having finished Dark Souls 3 however, I feel that maybe difficulty levels are warranted in some ways as I believe many veterans at this point steamrolled the game. I'm not sure I'd like a mode that is easier than what was established in previous games, but if the difficulty is to be tuned up to challenge veteran players, then maybe a distinction in difficulties needs to be made. And no, NG+ is not the same as playing on another difficulty(my NG+ run was both faster and easier than my NG run in DS3 as I already knew all the mob patterns, locations, bosses).[/QUOTE] now try NG+7 it keeps increasing every NG Granted, I think the NG+ kind of difficulty is largely bullshit. I haven't gotten around Dark Souls 3 yet, but at least in 2 there were some new enemies here and there in NG+, mostly phantoms that don't respawn though. Although I suppose they'd at least need to scale up the earlier enemies to match the late game difficulty, just adding more health and damage every NG is the worst kind of difficulty.
but getting good at the game is what makes it fun imo
Why is this even a question honestly. Dark Souls main appeal is that it is difficult. And "git gud" memes aside, really no game has to cater to casual players. The minority of casual players shouldn't dictate how a game should be when the majority of buyers already like how it is.
[QUOTE=Pascall;50198449]I wouldn't mind a slightly easier mode in the original but that's because I'm shit at coordinating myself in this game... And I can understand some other people having issues with it. It's pretty unrelenting and at times kinda feels overly so? Advancing doesn't always feel that fun, more like a "what kinda bullshit is it gonna throw at me now" kinda thing. Keep in mind that I literally just started playing this game yesterday and am not really an avid action rpg(???) player but I can appreciate how it is now. Just gonna take me a while to beat it. Easy mode doesn't necessarily mean make it a cake-walk, but little things like slightly more health or less health on the bosses might make it a little less exhausting to try and get through.[/QUOTE] You might want to look into mechanics like kindling bonfires or summoning buddies, they're kind of vaguely explained in the game but they're hidden enough that new players generally wont rely on them unless they are looking up how to make the game easier or if they've spent a while experimenting with the game's systems.
In my (brief twenty hour) experience with DS1 I was bothered more by the lack of convenience features than the difficulty of combat itself, e.g. the game not letting you pause properly or setting you back five minutes and making you fight through the same group of grunts you already have learned to efficiently fight, everytime you die while attempting to learn a boss' aggressive attack pattern, which doesn't make it hard or difficult, but tedious and longer than it has to be if it's supposed to be about learning mechanics well. Why should I not be able to enjoy Dark Souls' combat without the unnecessarily sadistic bullshit that atleast imo doesn't really add anything to the game?
[QUOTE=Mezzokoko;50198719]e.g. the game not letting you pause properly or setting you back five minutes and making you fight through the same group of grunts you already have learned to efficiently fight, everytime you die while attempting to learn a boss' aggressive attack pattern, which doesn't make it hard or difficult, but tedious and longer than it has to be if it's supposed to be about learning mechanics well. [/QUOTE] Dark Souls 2 and 3 are a lot more convenient with more bonfires, shortcuts, bonfire warping etc.
the reason souls got popular is because it caters to an overlooked market that [I]wants[/I] hard games to invest themselves into, and adding an 'easy mode' would devalue the experience of the core fanbase. [QUOTE=Mezzokoko;50198719]In my (brief twenty hour) experience with DS1 I was bothered more by the lack of convenience features than the difficulty of combat itself, e.g. the game not letting you pause properly or setting you back five minutes and making you fight through the same group of grunts you already have learned to efficiently fight, everytime you die while attempting to learn a boss' aggressive attack pattern, which doesn't make it hard or difficult, but tedious and longer than it has to be if it's supposed to be about learning mechanics well. Why should I not be able to enjoy Dark Souls' combat without the unnecessarily sadistic bullshit that atleast imo doesn't really add anything to the game?[/QUOTE] you can usually just run past them to the fog gate.
Dark Souls is my favourite game because theres no beating that feeling you get after destroying a boss that has been wrecking your shit 10 times over. Dark Souls 1 started with a boss like 5 minutes in, and that was an amazing design decision, because it's an instant hook if you struggled with it to begin with, but beat it later.
Dark Souls is an incredibly rewarding game in terms of self-accomplishment. No other game so far I've gotten me on the edge of my seat until "VICTORY" appeared on screen. I feel more confident after every tough battle and the game becomes less scary. Sometimes, some enemies are more bark then bite really. And other times, it's the other way around.
[QUOTE=Tovip;50198655]You might want to look into mechanics like kindling bonfires or summoning buddies, they're kind of vaguely explained in the game but they're hidden enough that new players generally wont rely on them unless they are looking up how to make the game easier or if they've spent a while experimenting with the game's systems.[/QUOTE] Yeah I mean I've had to actually go and look this stuff up which kinda sucks because I was hoping it'd be a little better explained lol. I'm getting steadily better but damn if the learning curve isn't steep as all hell. I'm still not entirely sure how to summon tbh I gotta check into that. I've been stuck on the arduous journey from Undead Burg to the bonfire in the Undead Parish which I almost got to had I turned right instead of left at the church...
[QUOTE=Yahnich;50198980]i'm pretty sure solaire outright tells you what to do for summoning[/QUOTE] Yeah he did. I had to go back and look at his dialogue.
I thought Dark Souls 3 was a little easier and more forgiving than the previous ones because the abundance of bonfires. I mean shit, there's literally 2 right next to each other in one of the endgame areas Your still going to die a lot though and get salty. I know I did
Having replayed through a bit of DS1 recently, it really doesn't. However, the game being "hard" isn't an excuse for some cheap set-up/layouts the game occasionally uses and the playerbase often writes off as "well it's hard so that's ok!!!!" When it gets down to borderline AI exploitation to pass by, that's not the right kind of difficulty. But it doesn't make that mistake all too much. [sp]fuccccccckkkkk those anti-dragon bowmen in Anor Londo[/sp]
For me the Souls games aren't really hard. They're just different in the sense that they heavily encourage you to think before you act. I mean, once you understand what sorts of things to look for when traveling through areas, or what things to keep in mind of when fighting enemies the difficulty gets pretty average.
[QUOTE=mooman1080;50198413]I did watch the video, as an invader though I get sour about phantoms and feel the need to post that when ever the easy mode discussion gets brought up.[/QUOTE] You're invading someone else's game by force, not willfully accepting terms of duel dude (This is assuming you're an INVADER, not a red sign summon) if you're invading you better be good and you better be prepared because you're breaking into someones home and they aren't going to appreciate it.
Having an easy mode in a game designed around unforgiving level design and enemy placement seems like completely missing the point. If anything it could hurt the core design if you'd have to account for the easy mode. It's like asking for a bullet hell to have a standard side-scrolling mode. Complete bollocks.
The truth is though, if you're going into dark souls for an easy going experience you're playing the wrong game. This isn't to say only skilled players choose it, I'm not that skilled and I LOVE the series. But I will say that Dark Souls is a game that even though casual gamers can beat it, it's not a casual game. Same goes for the Borderlands series, and Bastion, and under tale, and hundreds of others that don't really have difficulty settings. They're not easy games to beat but casual players could probably get through it. It's still not for them, and they really shouldn't be playing those games if they aren't that serious (Undertale being an exception though, that's very open for everyone.
I don't even know how you'd do an easy mode without redesigning the whole game. So much of the game's balance is in the level design and enemy placement.
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