That fucking ending, dude. How to ace an ending with a history show.
What makes this war such an immense tragedy was that there was so much to learn from it, yet in the end it seems like not a single thing was learned.
It speaks volumes when the second greatest war in human history doesn't even get a remembrance on its centennial. I heard [I]nothing[/I] about the Great War here in America. Not a single speech. Not a single minute of airtime devoted to one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Not even a single word.
To think that 14 million people died for us to learn exactly nothing. We should take away the message of greed, empiricism, and self-serving diplomacy that led us to war. We should remember how, for 4 brief years, the greatest of man's creations were brought low by the one creation that overshadows all; war. We should remember what great suffering was wrought, such that shook heaven and earth, just for the ambition of a few powerful men in a few powerful nations on a world that proved to be to small for them.
Yet, with the Second World War, with Korea and Vietnam, with the Persian Gulf War and all other subconflicts of the Cold War, with Russia reviving its old empiricism now and the US fighting to maintain its own hegemony, it is clear that we have learned no lesson. we refuse to be taught. Humans are too stubborn to learn so easily.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46210861]Yet, with the Second World War, with Korea and Vietnam, with the Persian Gulf War and all other subconflicts of the Cold War, with Russia reviving its old empiricism now and the US fighting to maintain its own hegemony, it is clear that we have learned no lesson. we refuse to be taught. Humans are too stubborn to learn so easily.[/QUOTE]
Funny thing is that pretty much all of those can be looked on as a consequence of the first world war.
I guess the worst, and in my opinion also the funniest thing is how many coincidences and impulsive decisions that caused that war. Just think that if only the leaders of the countries involved could only realize what was actually going on or if that one thing didn't happen at the wrong place right at that exact time, we'd live in a completely different world. Still, I'd say it's important that it actually happened just so we can learn from it, but the tragic thing is that so many people had to die because of it.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46210861] Not a single minute of airtime devoted to one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Not even a single word.
[/QUOTE]
Because we didn't contribute as much. This was mostly a European War, and we only got involved in 1917, during the ass end.
Americans care more about WWII because that's the one we were involved in most. Especially with Pearl Harbor.
Remember the Lusitania didn't have as much power as "Remember the Alamo!" or "Remember the Arizona" or today "Remember 9/11!" American War cries. We definantly have sympathy, we just go with WWII since that was the war we had a bigger part in.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
Also there's the matter that we didn't learn from WWI, simply because WWII came along and grabbed more attention.
You had a cartoon of a leader we all know to this day. Along with his allies, a mad Italian who had his face on his headquarters, and an Asian Empire that brought upon harsh cruelty upon their neighbors, then directly attacked the US, that would shock the nation into joining the war in full force.
Then come the ludicrous battles, the Battle of Stalingrad where Russians and Germans fought like cats and nice in the skeleton buildings of the city. The Battle of Kursk that currently hold the record for most tanks used in that battle.
The Normandy Landings, and the paradrops from the 82nd and 101st, whose stories we still tell to this day out of amazement.
The failure of Market Garden, and the Russian sacking of Berlin.
Or in the Pacific, The Naval battles; The Battle of Midway, the death of the Yamato, Guadalcanal, the liberation of The Philippines, The raising of the American flag at Iwo Jima is the most iconic American monument in Americana history.
The Atomic Bomb. The weapon that would drive the world, like the ending of WWI, into a completely new era of ideas, dreams, and nightmares of the future.
WWI is a tragedy.
WWII is a spectacle.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46210861]What makes this war such an immense tragedy was that there was so much to learn from it, yet in the end it seems like not a single thing was learned.
It speaks volumes when the second greatest war in human history doesn't even get a remembrance on its centennial. I heard [I]nothing[/I] about the Great War here in America. Not a single speech. Not a single minute of airtime devoted to one of the greatest tragedies in human history. Not even a single word.
To think that 14 million people died for us to learn exactly nothing. We should take away the message of greed, empiricism, and self-serving diplomacy that led us to war. We should remember how, for 4 brief years, the greatest of man's creations were brought low by the one creation that overshadows all; war. We should remember what great suffering was wrought, such that shook heaven and earth, just for the ambition of a few powerful men in a few powerful nations on a world that proved to be to small for them.
Yet, with the Second World War, with Korea and Vietnam, with the Persian Gulf War and all other subconflicts of the Cold War, with Russia reviving its old empiricism now and the US fighting to maintain its own hegemony, it is clear that we have learned no lesson. we refuse to be taught. Humans are too stubborn to learn so easily.[/QUOTE]
The European Union exists only because of the wars. Still think nothing was learned?
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211125]Because we didn't contribute as much. This was mostly a European War, and we only got involved in 1917, during the ass end.
Americans care more about WWII because that's the one we were involved in most. Especially with Pearl Harbor.
Remember the Lusitania didn't have as much power as "Remember the Alamo!" or "Remember the Arizona" or today "Remember 9/11!" American War cries. We definantly have sympathy, we just go with WWII since that was the war we had a bigger part in.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
Also there's the matter that we didn't learn from WWI, simply because WWII came along and grabbed more attention.
You had a cartoon of a leader we all know to this day. Along with his allies, a mad Italian who had his face on his headquarters, and an Asian Empire that brought upon harsh cruelty upon their neighbors, then directly attacked the US, that would shock the nation into joining the war in full force.
Then come the ludicrous battles, the Battle of Stalingrad where Russians and Germans fought like cats and nice in the skeleton buildings of the city. The Battle of Kursk that currently hold the record for most tanks used in that battle.
The Normandy Landings, and the paradrops from the 82nd and 101st, whose stories we still tell to this day out of amazement.
The failure of Market Garden, and the Russian sacking of Berlin.
Or in the Pacific, The Naval battles; The Battle of Midway, the death of the Yamato, Guadalcanal, the liberation of The Philippines, The raising of the American flag at Iwo Jima is the most iconic American monument in Americana history.
The Atomic Bomb. The weapon that would drive the world, like the ending of WWI, into a completely new era of ideas, dreams, and nightmares of the future.
WWI is a tragedy.
WWII is a spectacle.[/QUOTE]
Well said. I understand your points, but it reflects the arrogance of this country and pretty much all countries. Why is something unimportant just because we did not play a large role in it? It still shaped this country and the world in major ways.
That question could be asked in any country, and the answers are never good enough. Should we forget Cannae, Pharsalus, Chalons, or Passchendale, simply because no Americans ever fought in them? Every one of those battles has affected our country in some way, and that is why we can't forget them. There is no such thing as a lesson lost, only a lesson unlearned. If we ignore the past because we can't see by our own eclipsing narcissism than we are doomed to repeat it.
[QUOTE=Swineflu;46211362]The European Union exists only because of the wars. Still think nothing was learned?[/QUOTE]
Just because Europe has essentially confederated doesn't mean we have learned anything. That is taking the war at the most basic, simple, face-value. My point was that the circumstances that led to World War One could have happened to [I]anybody.[/I] The war was inevitable from the day the first modern man set foot on this earth, and all wars since are inevitable. Man is unlikely to ever throw away the idea of war. It is the most simplistic mean of reaching a goal; simply take it. Because of that, even 500 years from now we will still use war as a tool, and we will have learned nothing.
Europe may have learned its lesson (somewhat) for the time being, but now other parts of the world will step in to fill the void. I accuse my own country, the United States, as being the worst about it. While I don't want to throw around the term "imperialistic", the truth is that this country is still very much an empire practicing imperialism. It isn't as overt as the "divide and conquer" type that we saw building up to World War One, but to this day we still exert our own political and economic influence across the world. We forcefully remove, through proxy wars, rebellions, or straight up invasions those who are liabilities to our hegemony, and we do our best to keep many places (Including your country, if flagdog is to be believed) under that net so as to keep away the opposition. The EU doesn't exist because of World War One or World War Two. If that were true, the League of Nations (and arguably the UN) wouldn't be such a joke. The EU has spawned from mutual fear. The nations of Europe cooperate not to end all wars; merely to be more powerful when the next war arrives. It strengthens the bonds of those nations economically and militarily, but ask yourself, if there was no fear of external threats, then why unify? Why would you need to be stronger than an opponent if you do not fear them?
I'm sure you disagree, and in the end it is good that there isn't an end-all discussion to this topic. I just disagree on principal. I don't think humans really have the capacity for peace in any measure. Hell, the only thing that has kept us from waging war after World War Two wasn't the idea of mutual cooperation, it was that war would inevitably end in complete annihilation. And even in that case, crazy bastards during the Cuban Missile Crisis still advised Kennedy and Kruschev both to launch the missiles. For those people, everybody losing was better than somebody winning, and that is why we haven't learned anything.
[QUOTE=Swineflu;46211362]The European Union exists only because of the wars. Still think nothing was learned?[/QUOTE]
Britain always remembers with their red poppies flooding out of the Tower of London.
And there is always a remembrance of some sort in France.
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46211497]Well said. I understand your points, but it reflects the arrogance of this country and pretty much all countries. Why is something unimportant just because we did not play a large role in it? It still shaped this country and the world in major ways.
That question could be asked in any country, and the answers are never good enough. Should we forget Cannae, Pharsalus, Chalons, or Passchendale, simply because no Americans ever fought in them? Every one of those battles has affected our country in some way, and that is why we can't forget them. There is no such thing as a lesson lost, only a lesson unlearned. If we ignore the past because we can't see by our own eclipsing narcissism than we are doomed to repeat it.
[/QUOTE]
What Arrogance? America had voulenteers that wanted to fight and they did.
How is it arrogant that we didn't want to take part in what we saw as a clusterfuck of wars and alliances?
Why the literal fuck do you think that once WWI ended we rose our flag as "Isolationist", i.e. we didn't want to join in any more crazy wars we wanted no part it.
And of course we don't forget other historical events because America wasn't a part of it :v:
That's like saying "HEY GUYS, LET'S FORGET ALL ABOUT ROMAN HISTORY BECAUSE THE ENGLISH EMPIRE WASN'T AROUND TO BIRTH AMERICA YET!".
Let's just forget about Prehistoric History because Dinosaurs weren't singing Yankee Doodle :v:
[editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
And what narcissism?
I smell an undertone of "Fuck America" in your argument.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46211497]We forcefully remove, through proxy wars, rebellions, or straight up invasions those who are liabilities to our hegemony, and we do our best to keep many places (Including your country, if flagdog is to be believed) under that net so as to keep away the opposition.[/QUOTE]
I suppose by keeping under a net you mean having a military presence here right? Well in that case Romania wanted you americans to come here and make bases.
If all supowerpowers were like America then I'd have no problems with them. You guys might invade a lot of countries, but you do your best after that to help the country rebuild, you do your best to have as many friends as possible. Russia? It would invade the whole world if it could. China also hates a lot of it's neighbors.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211567]
What Arrogance? America had voulenteers that wanted to fight and they did.[/QUOTE]
I think you are missing the point. I am not even sure what the hell you are on about? I know American soldiers were volunteers who wanted to fight. I didn't dispute that point anywhere. I am talking about people [I]today[/I] in this country blindly ignoring world events just because they "didn't involve us". I really don't know how you took that as a slight against our troops in World War One or whatever point you are trying to make.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211567]How is it arrogant that we didn't want to take part in what we saw as a clusterfuck of wars and alliances?[/QUOTE]
It isn't. I agree with the isolationist attitude. I think avoiding wars unless directly threatened is a good policy. I wasn't saying that is was arrogant. Once again, read above, I was criticizing people today for not really remembering the past simply because it didn't really include America. That is self-centered and quite frankly stupid.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211567]Why the literal fuck do you think that once WWI ended we rose our flag as "Isolationist", i.e. we didn't want to join in any more crazy wars we wanted no part it. [/QUOTE]
And then after the even worse war following it we proceeded to reverse that isolationist policy completely and decided that we needed to play an active, aggressive, almost overlord-like stance in world politics simply on the ideological principle that "communism is EVIL". We then got ourselves involved in every corner of the globe to jostle influence with the Soviet Union (who was also at fault) and intervene in several destructive wars simply to stop communism. Yeah, I'd say we forgot WWI pretty fast.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211567]And of course we don't forget other historical events because America wasn't a part of it :v:
That's like saying "HEY GUYS, LET'S FORGET ALL ABOUT ROMAN HISTORY BECAUSE THE ENGLISH EMPIRE WASN'T AROUND TO BIRTH AMERICA YET!".
Let's just forget about Prehistoric History because Dinosaurs weren't singing Yankee Doodle :v:[/QUOTE]
Except the average person does.
That is the problem. People like you and me who are invested in history remember these events, but the common man doesn't seem to care about history very much, especially when it has no direct correlation with his own country. And that, in my eyes, is a huge problem, because it is the common man, the average joe, the majority, that votes and gets sent off to fight wars. We don't seem to remember or care about WWI in this country as any more than a history class lesson or a vaguely interesting thing to make a history channel documentary about. Hell, most people view WWII in the same light. There is way to much focus on the occurrence of a war and not why it happened and what consequences it holds.
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211567][editline]11th October 2014[/editline]
And what narcissism?
I smell an undertone of "Fuck America" in your argument.[/QUOTE]
Uh, no, that's just you being delusional (considering I always see you rabidly post whenever someone dares to criticize this country anyways). I used America as a primary example because we are [I]the[/I] de facto power in this world right now, but I stressed that this kind of arrogance happens in all countries. Brits don't remember or care about the American Civil War because it didn't really involve them. The Chinese don't care about the Thirty Years War because it didn't really involve them. I could keep going, but my point is that we should remember why these wars were fought, and what became of them, regardless of whether they involved us or not. Its the "doomed to repeat history" lesson I was trying to explain, if you would stop being a belligerent dick and actually take the time to read my post instead of just chalking up my arguments to "he hates America so he sucks".
[QUOTE=Swineflu;46211611]I suppose by keeping under a net you mean having a military presence here right? Well in that case Romania wanted you americans to come here and make bases.
If all supowerpowers were like America then I'd have no problems with them. You guys might invade a lot of countries, but you do your best after that to help the country rebuild, you do your best to have as many friends as possible. Russia? It would invade the whole world if it could. China also hates a lot of it's neighbors.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, ideologically I do suppose we are a [I]better[/I] option. It does scare me a bit how our morals are very grey though; we treat you guys in Europe fairly well, but in other places (Iraq and Afghanistan) we tend to do a lot of harm, even when we do good. To many Middle Easterners, we are just the scary, technologically advanced, belligerent nation half a world away, and in some ways that is right, in some ways it is wrong. What gets me is that we still do have an imperialist attitude. We try very hard to secure economic and political ties with, well, everywhere for the benefit of the state. Rebuilding Germany and Japan after World War Two wasn't really done from the kindness of our hearts; it was so we could keep communism out of those regions and gain new political allies. In my mind, that is kind of imperialism because you are doing things for the benefit of the home state. It just so happens that it also benefits the people in question, so it is better.
I'm just arguing the morals of it. I am all for being the big, friendly guys who come in, root out dictatorships, and hand out democracy, freedom, and all that nice shit, but we aren't. We didn't invade Iraq to remove Saddam Hussein because he was oppressive, we did it because we badly needed more political allies in the region besides Israel, to "finish the job" that Bush senior started, and just generally exert our influence in a region in which our influence was dwindling. Saddam Hussein was bad, and (hopefully) Iraq will prove to be better off without him in the long run, so I guess we did a good thing, but it was for the wrong reasons. If we truly cared about being benevolent, we would have removed Assad a long time ago, Qaddafi a long time ago, and Mubarak a long time ago.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46211813]I think you are missing the point. I am not even sure what the hell you are on about? I know American soldiers were volunteers who wanted to fight. I didn't dispute that point anywhere. I am talking about people [I]today[/I] in this country blindly ignoring world events just because they "didn't involve us".[/QUOTE]
Because we don't have to be the World Police :v:
We are in a lose lose, we either help anyone we can with our Power and Money, and get told to stop acting like we have authority over everything.
OR
We choose not to put a hand in something because there are other powerful nations that can help, and we get told "You fucking pigs help us lower countries out."
We can't be a country's mommy and bottle feed them until they smack it away and start to screech about independence and wanting to date that risky bad boy who has the kickass motorcycle, only to come home in tears because the guy was a douche, where upon that country goes back to suckling on American tit for a while until it wants to smack it away AGAIN.
I love this fucking country, we do give a shit about things, we just don't want to be the answer to everyone's fucking problems. Sometimes these nations have to learn to pull themselves by their boot straps in order to get shit done on their own. We're not ignorant rich people pissing on the lowly 3rd world, we just don't want to keep giving $20s to the bum on the corner whose not taking advantage of that to do something for himself, or worse, just taking advantage of us for protection, free stuff, and someone to scare their enemies away.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;46211813] Yeah, ideologically I do suppose we are a [I]better[/I] option. It does scare me a bit how our morals are very grey though; we treat you guys in Europe fairly well, but in other places (Iraq and Afghanistan) we tend to do a lot of harm, even when we do good. To many Middle Easterners, we are just the scary, technologically advanced, belligerent nation half a world away, and in some ways that is right, in some ways it is wrong. What gets me is that we still do have an imperialist attitude. We try very hard to secure economic and political ties with, well, everywhere for the benefit of the state. Rebuilding Germany and Japan after World War Two wasn't really done from the kindness of our hearts; it was so we could keep communism out of those regions and gain new political allies. In my mind, that is kind of imperialism because you are doing things for the benefit of the home state. It just so happens that it also benefits the people in question, so it is better.[/QUOTE]
Well whatever the actual reason behind the acts was, in the end the countries still benefited from the help. Meanwhile us behind the Iron Curtain were getting treated like Russia's bitches.
You americans were so important to us that our resistance fighters (which were all killed by the communists eventually) literally made their whole plans around putting up a resistance until the inevitable american liberation will come.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin_americanii[/url]!
[QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;46211835]Because we don't have to be the World Police :v:
We are in a lose lose, we either help anyone we can with our Power and Money, and get told to stop acting like we have authority over everything.
OR
We choose not to put a hand in something because there are other powerful nations that can help, and we get told "You fucking pigs help us lower countries out."
We can't be a country's mommy and bottle feed them until they smack it away and start to screech about independence and wanting to date that risky bad boy who has the kickass motorcycle, only to come home in tears because the guy was a douche, where upon that country goes back to suckling on American tit for a while until it wants to smack it away AGAIN.
I love this fucking country, we do give a shit about things, we just don't want to be the answer to everyone's fucking problems. Sometimes these nations have to learn to pull themselves by their boot straps in order to get shit done on their own. We're not ignorant rich people pissing on the lowly 3rd world, we just don't want to keep giving $20s to the bum on the corner whose not taking advantage of that to do something for himself, or worse, just taking advantage of us for protection, free stuff, and someone to scare their enemies away.[/QUOTE]
I'm not arguing that we should be world police, I am arguing the opposite.
In fact, I completely agree with your last paragraph. That was my point all along, not only pertaining to us, but to all countries, that we should mind our own business and, if we do decide to intervene, it should be as a group of nations collectively deciding to improve the world, not just for America's/China's/Russia's personal gain.
My point was that World War One taught us the lesson that we [I]should[/I] be minding our own business, and I mean that mostly in reference to the political posturing, imperialism, and colonialism that was done by the European powers that eventually led them to war. And yet it is a lesson we, as the dominant power in the world, seem to have forgotten, since we still commit these imperialistic actions all the time.
[QUOTE=Swineflu;46211984]Well whatever the actual reason behind the acts was, in the end the countries still benefited from the help. Meanwhile us behind the Iron Curtain were getting treated like Russia's bitches.
You americans were so important to us that our resistance fighters (which were all killed by the communists eventually) literally made their whole plans around putting up a resistance until the inevitable american liberation will come.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vin_americanii[/url]![/QUOTE]
Just fucking reading this post is ripping me apart in side, I know it's not much, but I'm sorry that we didn't come.
[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;46213510]Just fucking reading this post is ripping me apart in side, I know it's not much, but I'm sorry that we didn't come.[/QUOTE]
Better late than never, with the missile shield that's been installed now we're sure that if we're ever going to be attacked we will get help. So thanks.
While this may seem rather unrelated, I found that the crumble of the Tsars and his family was terrible. His whole fucking family got killed when they all thought they were going to take a family photo. Just makes me feel sad, those kids didn't even did shit.
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