• Why KB+Mouse is superior to a gamepad for FPS
    44 replies, posted
First off, let me say I know this is an age old debate. I made this video to discuss why I believe that a mouse is physically superior to a thumbstick for FPS performance, not to debate which is more fun or comfortable etc. Me and my friend were just having a discussion on kb+mouse vs gamepad, so I decided to do a video which shows exactly why I believe a mouse is superior to a thumbstick for FPS. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LK40SrUOpY[/media] What do you guys think?
How is it even debatable, mice have always been more accurate.
No one worth listening to is going to say a gamepad is better than a mouse at FPS.
Any player worth their salt knows that mice are superior to sticks in just about every aspect; precision, accuracy and reaction speed. I make the distinction between precision and accuracy, because I consider precision to be that which determines the ease of making small adjustments (for headshots) and accuracy to be general aiming mechanics and how easy it is to point something at the enemy's body.
[QUOTE=Anthophobian;42498847]How is it even debatable, mice have always been more accurate.[/QUOTE] From a PC gaming perspective I am sure most would agree with you, but a lot of console players don't recognise the limitations of the thumbstick or the advantages of the mouse. I wanted to make a video for when somebody says it is just preference, and that you can get just as good with either, so I can just say "watch this".
You make a great point concerning the superiority of mouse and keyboard in FPS, although your commentary seemed a little "low energy" if that makes any sense. Also, even though there was a visual description at the end, it did seem a little one-sided in that you didn't show gameplay of a shooter with a gamepad, which would help you hammer home your point better in a visual sense. Otherwise it's an alright video. Also, as a personal query, do you think that character movement in FPS is better on a gamepad or keyboard? Personally I'm wondering if gamepad is better for that kinda thing, since you don't have to press the different direction keys to travel in 8 limited digital directions, with analog sticks allowing for unlimited directional potential and you aren't stuck with a "two-gear diarrhoea" system with the sprint key because you could technically control how fast you move.
[QUOTE=ironman17;42498864]You make a great point concerning the superiority of mouse and keyboard in FPS, although your commentary seemed a little "low energy" if that makes any sense. Also, even though there was a visual description at the end, it did seem a little one-sided in that you didn't show gameplay of a shooter with a gamepad, which would help you hammer home your point better in a visual sense. Otherwise it's an alright video. Also, as a personal query, do you think that character movement in FPS is better on a gamepad or keyboard? Personally I'm wondering if gamepad is better for that kinda thing, since you don't have to press the different direction keys to travel in 8 limited digital directions, with analog sticks allowing for unlimited directional potential and you aren't stuck with a "two-gear diarrhoea" system with the sprint key because you could technically control how fast you move.[/QUOTE] Mmm, yeah I think you are right about including gamepad footage, that would have been good. I personally prefer movement with a keyboard, but I think a thumbstick is probably better for precise movements. The thing with keyboard though is that because your fingers are always on WASD, you can immediately switch direction. There is no having to move the stick from one side to the other, which makes things like dodging and quake / source style bunny hopping easier.
One thing that really bothers me about using controllers is using guns/fps. You have to adjust how sensitive the analog stick is but with a mouse you don't have to adjust anything.
Bullshit kb+mouse is superior to anything.
[QUOTE=spectator1;42499229]Bullshit kb+mouse is superior to anything.[/QUOTE] What about mortal kombat? Metal Gear Rising: Revengance, or any hack n slash or combo beat em up?
it's basically impossible for me to play against people used to a gamepad because if the fact you need [B]practice[/B], but it's down to the brain with mice. With mice it's a matter of your 'natural timing' and 'calibration', with gamepads it's much more. I know though that if they used sticks VS me with a mouse I'd fuck them up, but generally in shooters I break even K/D but then I play any driving - non shooter game and holy fuck is WASD shit for that
[QUOTE=spectator1;42499229]Bullshit kb+mouse is superior to anything.[/QUOTE] Games based on a two dimensional plane are generally more enjoyable + comfortable with a controller, the same applies for racing games
In addition to your argument, I would add that you have more control over your entire arm movement rather than just your thumb.
[QUOTE=spectator1;42499229]Bullshit kb+mouse is superior to anything.[/QUOTE] Literally every 3rd person open world game works best with a controller Playing games like AC on PC with a keyboard just isn't fun at all
[QUOTE=spectator1;42499229]Bullshit kb+mouse is superior to anything.[/QUOTE] Thumbsticks are much better for platformers and driving games. Driving on a PC is just press A or D to turn hard left or right. You have much more control with a thumbstick or joypad, you can control how hard you actually want to turn. Another big drawback to keyboards is that you need to toggle or hold something down in order to differentiate between walking and running. It's not a big deal but it's much less fluid than with a controller. It's also pretty hard to run in a perfect circle without moving the mouse. It's way easier to fine tune your movements in a platformer too, like landing on a really small space. The only finicky thing with controllers is looking around, it's much easier to do with a mouse. Really the only time mouse and keyboard have an advantage is FPS and RTS games. [editline]12th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=ForDaNords;42499603]Literally every 3rd person open world game works best with a controller Playing games like AC on PC with a keyboard just isn't fun at all[/QUOTE] Assassin's creed was fucking terrible on PC, but only after I experienced it with a controller. No comparison. I do prefer playing Dark Souls on PC though, not sure why. I just wish I could get the fluid footwork I could get with a controller but with the benefit of being able to turn really fast like with a mouse.
[QUOTE=ForDaNords;42499603]Literally every 3rd person open world game works best with a controller Playing games like AC on PC with a keyboard just isn't fun at all[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say that every 3rd person open world game is better with a controller. I actually quite like my control scheme for AC with kb+mouse, but I agree that a lot of games are better with a controller, especially driving games. [editline]12th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=FingerSpazem;42499617] [editline]12th October 2013[/editline] Assassin's creed was fucking terrible on PC.[/QUOTE] It's alright if you have a 5 button mouse IMO.
[QUOTE=Jallen;42499643]It's alright if you have a 5 button mouse IMO.[/QUOTE] See that might have helped. [editline]12th October 2013[/editline] idk though, my main issues with playing that on PC was turning
Shoulda shown some gameplay with a controller to further prove the point.
[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;42499815]Shoulda shown some gameplay with a controller to further prove the point.[/QUOTE] I think that would have been good, but the main target audience are people who use a gamepad and think it's better than kb+mouse. They will already know what it's like to use a gamepad and that they cannot do this. So yeah, I think it would have been good if I included that, but I don't think the point is lost because of it.
I have that same mouse, and I love it. I keep telling my room mates with their fancy razer naga's that this is one of the best mice in my opinion.
[QUOTE=surfur;42500341]I have that same mouse, and I love it. I keep telling my room mates with their fancy razer naga's that this is one of the best mice in my opinion.[/QUOTE] I am super specific about what kind of mouse I use. I used an MS IE 3.0 for ages (preferred mouse of CS and quake pros) which was awesome. Only recently switched to this. The MX518 had angle snapping which was unbearable. Fortunately they got rid of that in the G400, which makes it one of the best optical mice around. The 1000hz built into the driver is especially nice, so I don't have to install an unsigned driver like for the IE. Laser and DPI are both marketing bullshit. I play at 450 DPI, which is the same as the MS IE 3.0. Laser's tracking is awful in comparison to optical. I would recommend the G400 to anyone. I don't know of any mouse, no matter what it costs, that is technically better.
[QUOTE=FingerSpazem;42499617]Assassin's creed was fucking terrible on PC, but only after I experienced it with a controller. No comparison. I do prefer playing Dark Souls on PC though, not sure why. I just wish I could get the fluid footwork I could get with a controller but with the benefit of being able to turn really fast like with a mouse.[/QUOTE] It's funny you should say that; I had an idea for a "hybrid system" that combines analog movement with mouse-based aiming/camera control. Basically it would be a one-handed joystick and a mouse, but both implements would probably have a few more buttons in ergonomic places. Aiming/camera control would be done with the mouse, whilst character movement is controlled by moving the joystick. With the right placement of buttons, and the right number of buttons, my theoretical hybrid system would likely combine the best of both worlds for certain titles. Whilst there might be issues with the system working on the couch since seat cushions are usually uneven, that could probably be solved by having a flat surface on your lap like a dinner tray, then put the mouse and joystick on the surface as if it were a desk. All in all I think that covers it, although twinstick controllers like DualShock still have their place for many types of games, like for twinstick shooters and certain kinds of platformers, the kinds of games that benefit more from stick-based aiming.
It's more or less obvious keys and a mouse are better for FPSs in general, but that being said, I think the people who think that thumbsticks are some foreign, awful to use thing for FPSs like Halo or CoD on a 360 or something are acting a bit silly. I do prefer a gamepad by far for most Third Person Shooters, Games where button combos are a big part of the gameplay, Driving games, and Platformers/games where the limited movement a keyboard provides doesn't cut it. I'd assume they'd be better for fighting games as well, but I don't really play them.
[QUOTE=ironman17;42500601]It's funny you should say that; I had an idea for a "hybrid system" that combines analog movement with mouse-based aiming/camera control. Basically it would be a one-handed joystick and a mouse, but both implements would probably have a few more buttons in ergonomic places. Aiming/camera control would be done with the mouse, whilst character movement is controlled by moving the joystick. With the right placement of buttons, and the right number of buttons, my theoretical hybrid system would likely combine the best of both worlds for certain titles. Whilst there might be issues with the system working on the couch since seat cushions are usually uneven, that could probably be solved by having a flat surface on your lap like a dinner tray, then put the mouse and joystick on the surface as if it were a desk. All in all I think that covers it, although twinstick controllers like DualShock still have their place for many types of games, like for twinstick shooters and certain kinds of platformers, the kinds of games that benefit more from stick-based aiming.[/QUOTE] The Razer nostromo, tartarus, and orbweaver do this, along with the Logitech G13 and others I'm sure.
I had no idea such things even existed. They look pretty handy, and seem to fill the niche that the joystick would in the "hybrid system", without needing an actual joystick. However Nostromo, Tartarus and Orbweaver seem to still have a digital 8-way in terms of it's thumbstick, so that's not ideal for the hybrid system. But all in all, to perfect the system, I'd say have one of those gaming keypads, but make the thumbstick an analog to allow the same "fluid footwork" that you'd get from a gamepad. 8-way directional was cool back in the olden days when the D-pad was still the big thing, but in this day and age 8-way is still too restrictive, and smooth analog is vital for precision footplay.
[QUOTE=ironman17;42500601]It's funny you should say that; I had an idea for a "hybrid system" that combines analog movement with mouse-based aiming/camera control. Basically it would be a one-handed joystick and a mouse, but both implements would probably have a few more buttons in ergonomic places. Aiming/camera control would be done with the mouse, whilst character movement is controlled by moving the joystick. With the right placement of buttons, and the right number of buttons, my theoretical hybrid system would likely combine the best of both worlds for certain titles. Whilst there might be issues with the system working on the couch since seat cushions are usually uneven, that could probably be solved by having a flat surface on your lap like a dinner tray, then put the mouse and joystick on the surface as if it were a desk. All in all I think that covers it, although twinstick controllers like DualShock still have their place for many types of games, like for twinstick shooters and certain kinds of platformers, the kinds of games that benefit more from stick-based aiming.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=ironman17;42501115]I had no idea such things even existed. They look pretty handy, and seem to fill the niche that the joystick would in the "hybrid system", without needing an actual joystick. However Nostromo, Tartarus and Orbweaver seem to still have a digital 8-way in terms of it's thumbstick, so that's not ideal for the hybrid system. But all in all, to perfect the system, I'd say have one of those gaming keypads, but make the thumbstick an analog to allow the same "fluid footwork" that you'd get from a gamepad. 8-way directional was cool back in the olden days when the D-pad was still the big thing, but in this day and age 8-way is still too restrictive, and smooth analog is vital for precision footplay.[/QUOTE] I think when it comes to joystick movement Shooters work best with 4 + 1 to 3 controls (WASD + jump, duck, sprint) WASD allows for constant quick control of the moves you make, you don't need precision movement so simplicity shits om controllers in this case, especially since you can duck, jump, and duck jump at a moments notice + have duck+jump combined. never in my life have I needed to walk on the fly except when I use movement to aim but I only needed to move to aim when I use controllers. In fact, in games like Mirrors Edge, Dishonored, outlast, etc, I've even used my main mouse buttons for sprinting to FURTHER make the movement simple. now when it comes to having the joystick on a gamepad. UP = machine gun, left = Shitty, down = explosive, right = sniper, and click = super / other / etc. This is hyper useful. The only place a hybrid Joystick and mouse system has place in is a game like GTA. Where you have both a gamepad and a dedicated 1 handed joystick for the right hand, both separate, and mouse for the other for aiming. [QUOTE=Jallen;42500474]I am super specific about what kind of mouse I use. I used an MS IE 3.0 for ages (preferred mouse of CS and quake pros) which was awesome. Only recently switched to this. The MX518 had angle snapping which was unbearable. Fortunately they got rid of that in the G400, which makes it one of the best optical mice around. The 1000hz built into the driver is especially nice, so I don't have to install an unsigned driver like for the IE. Laser and DPI are both marketing bullshit. I play at 450 DPI, which is the same as the MS IE 3.0. Laser's tracking is awful in comparison to optical. I would recommend the G400 to anyone. I don't know of any mouse, no matter what it costs, that is technically better.[/QUOTE] I use a g600 and will never change out of it some people like a numberpad at their thumb and speed shift some people don't even want to think about that and would rather "Hey look 2 buttons none of that extra useless bullshit"
I use the same mouse as him and have been banned for using flick shot technique on tf2 before.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;42502134]I use the same mouse as him and have been banned for using flick shot technique on tf2 before.[/QUOTE] It's an honour to be banned because people think you are hacking :v: It's only ever happened to me once. I was playing CSS and through absolute fluke, 3 people lined up for a headshot as I fired the scout. Immediately banned from my favorite server.
[QUOTE=Jallen;42502347]It's an honour to be banned because people think you are hacking :v: It's only ever happened to me once. I was playing CSS and through absolute fluke, 3 people lined up for a headshot as I fired the scout. Immediately banned from my favorite server.[/QUOTE] I would love for this to happen BF3 for me is using a scopeless sniper rifle :v:
I hate using thumb sticks, I always find that they always go either to fast and go off the target or too slow and thus I can't turn quick enough.
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