[The Pixel Show] Boss Fight Stagnation (are boss fights in games not as good as they used to be?) - General

Hello again! The twentieth episode of TPS is upon us - and in my opinion it's the best episode I've yet done! [video=youtube;K_N_fcKEUz8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_N_fcKEUz8[/video] Hope you enjoy it!

Thanks for reminding me how awesome the Mr. Freeze fight was.

Outro is STILL far too long. What you could do is film one episode without releasing it, then make the next one, and add a "next time" bit at the end during the outro where you show what the episode after it will contain, and then keep doing that, releasing the previous episode when you finish / are finishing one. Then it'd make more sense to have thirty seconds of outro, because the way it is now, that's just thirty seconds where the viewer either stops watching or keeps watching to see if there's anything at the end, and is just left feeling disappointed.

It almost doesn't count because it's a movie-game, but the boss fight in Wolverine: Origins actually made me almost angry at how bad it was. There was 0 difficulty in fighting the boss, it never changed things up. It had one attack, and you dodge that attack and then slash at it's face until it throws you off, and then you repeat. All increasing the difficulty does is increase the health of the boss. It doesn't make it any harder in any way, it makes it much more boring because you have to keep doing the same thing for even longer

Play Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.

[QUOTE=evlbzltyr;36826084]Outro is STILL far too long. What you could do is film one episode without releasing it, then make the next one, and add a "next time" bit at the end during the outro where you show what the episode after it will contain, and then keep doing that, releasing the previous episode when you finish / are finishing one. Then it'd make more sense to have thirty seconds of outro, because the way it is now, that's just thirty seconds where the viewer either stops watching or keeps watching to see if there's anything at the end, and is just left feeling disappointed.[/QUOTE] I suppose that's a fair point. I just like the outro that LilDeuceDeuce made for me; I feel it'd be a little rude to cut it down. Plus, it provides a nice spot to advertise the rest of my channel. I have contemplated putting outtakes/flubbed lines from the episode after the credits, but wasn't sure how they'd go down so left it as one whole. [QUOTE=m0nkey98;36826155]Play Demon's Souls or Dark Souls.[/QUOTE] I have; I would argue that the bosses in those games firmly fall into the "Bullet Sponge" category from the video. With powerful enough weaponry and appropriate stats, it's possible to cut down the bosses in less than ten sword swings - and, given how bosses swiftly return as regular enemies in future levels, the player quickly loses - as I put it - "respect" for the boss as a damaging force. If anything, they're just slightly more difficult regular enemies from the start.

[QUOTE=KitAlexHarrison;36826174]I have; I would argue that the bosses in those games firmly fall into the "Bullet Sponge" category from the video. With powerful enough weaponry and appropriate stats, it's possible to cut down the bosses in less than ten sword swings - and, given how bosses swiftly return as regular enemies in future levels, the player quickly loses - as I put it - "respect" for the boss as a damaging force. If anything, they're just slightly more difficult regular enemies from the start.[/QUOTE] I have to disagree with that. Boss fights in Dark Souls or Demon's Souls rely heavily on choreographed attack patterns. Admittedly almost every enemy in those games relies on patterned attacks that players need to figure out in order to defeat them, but that shouldn't disqualify the bosses. You do have a point in saying that it's possible to cut down bosses in only a few attacks if the player is powerful enough, but that argument doesn't mean they fall into the bullet sponge category since you mentioned in the video that bullet sponges have attacks that serve only as a deterrent to the players. Boss attacks in Dark Souls generally do massive damage if not outright killing players when they're hit. Most boss attacks are unblockable to boot. Saying that they're just slightly more difficult that regular enemies is a massive understatement when you consider that when they're introduced they're significantly more difficult that the enemies players have been fighting previously. The Taurus Demon is introduced early in the game as a boss. Up until this point players have only been fighting a few variants of the basic undead warrior enemy. His attacks generally can't be blocked by the vast majority of players early in the game and many of his stronger attacks can one hit kill a player. He does appear as a regular enemy later in the game, but it's quite a bit later when players are significantly more powerful that when they were first introduced to the Taurus Demon. You'd be right in saying that most of the Dark Souls boss fights don't rely on using skills introduced earlier in their environment. For the most part, bosses in Dark Souls all require the same skills to defeat: precision timing, interpretation of telegraphed attacks, and memorization of attack patterns, but these skills generally have to be partially relearned for each boss. If anything I'd say the bosses of Dark Souls are CLOSER to traditional boss fights than most other games' bosses.

[QUOTE=Dark Kite;36827372][post][/QUOTE] That's actually a fair point, I'll bow to that. They're still a little distanced from the traditional, mind - and Phalanx from Demon's Souls definitely remains an outright bullet sponge, crossed with the Lackey type in spades.

If you plan on making the show partnered, avoid what you did in the beginning unless you're positive of fairuse. [QUOTE=evlbzltyr;36826084]Outro is STILL far too long.[/QUOTE] I entirely disagree. But I do think it's being used wrong. [QUOTE=evlbzltyr;36826084] What you could do is film one episode without releasing it, then make the next one, and add a "next time" bit at the end during the outro where you show what the episode after it will contain, and then keep doing that, releasing the previous episode when you finish / are finishing one. Then it'd make more sense to have thirty seconds of outro, because the way it is now, that's just thirty seconds where the viewer either stops watching or keeps watching to see if there's anything at the end, and is just left feeling disappointed.[/QUOTE] However, this is much better. The outro of a show, especially on youtube, should be used to bring people in to your circle of content. I suggest keeping your 20-30 second end-video, but place boxes of other videos, info about show schedule, links to other people you worked with, etc. It needs to be a page where people can click and go to other content, but importantly, YOUR content. Keeping viewers inside of your channel is important for bouncing traffic around.

The thing you mention about boss-fights having health and ammo in the room before has always been true about shooters. And having boss fights be predictable isn't an awful thing; some games like the Zelda series make it very clear when you're about to enter the "boss door". And to say that boss fights have become more predictable is a bit strange. I've seen the "reflect projectiles back at the enemy" or "kite them into the environment" in 3D platformers far too many times.

[QUOTE=KitAlexHarrison;36827729]That's actually a fair point, I'll bow to that. They're still a little distanced from the traditional, mind - and Phalanx from Demon's Souls definitely remains an outright bullet sponge, crossed with the Lackey type in spades.[/QUOTE] I'll give you that without begrudging you. I'll admit that my knowledge of Demons' Souls is fairly limited compared to Dark Souls since I could never progress much farther than the Phalanx demon. I think the argument could be made that these bosses (apart from the Phalanx) are actually closer to traditional bosses than the bosses mentioned in the video. I grew up playing games on the NES. Games like Super Mario Bros./Duck Hunt, Mega Man, and Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the original that makes so many angry game reviewers upset and the second/third that was an awesome side scrolling beat'em'up to play with a friend.) Bosses in these games were basically the same as those in Dark Souls. They had more health than other enemies, unique attacks, attack patterns that were sometimes telegraphed, and none of them really had any unique methods to killing them that were introduced as game mechanics earlier in their home stages. I also think it could be argued that the boss fight from Crash mentioned in the video should actually be dropped in the set piece boss category if you consider my other argument in this post legitimate. Our difference of opinion may however just be because our definition of traditional games are different since I seem to cite games that are a few years older than the games the video cites.

[QUOTE=Brt5470;36828013]If you plan on making the show partnered, avoid what you did in the beginning unless you're positive of fairuse.[/QUOTE] Indeed - YouTube has significantly altered what it "means" to be a Partner (for example, I have the ability to edit my videos' thumbnails but not any of the banners or other such stuff), but I always try to keep use of non-free music to a minimum/don't use it. The use of the Safety Dance in this episode is brief and in reference to this video which uses the song in its entirety - so I should be good, though I can always reupload the video with different music if problems arise. [QUOTE=Brt5470;36828013]The outro of a show, especially on youtube, should be used to bring people in to your circle of content. I suggest keeping your 20-30 second end-video, but place boxes of other videos, info about show schedule, links to other people you worked with, etc. It needs to be a page where people can click and go to other content, but importantly, YOUR content. Keeping viewers inside of your channel is important for bouncing traffic around.[/QUOTE] That's a very good idea! I'll amend future episodes with some links to people I work with/think traffic should be sent to (LilDeuceDeuce, Dan Bull, BrutalMoose etc).

I always enjoy your videos, Kit. This episode was fantastic by the way, and I like how you're beginning to develop your own style. I hope to see more from you like this in future.

[QUOTE=fenwick;36828114]The thing you mention about boss-fights having health and ammo in the room before has always been true about shooters. And having boss fights be predictable isn't an awful thing; some games like the Zelda series make it very clear when you're about to enter the "boss door". And to say that boss fights have become more predictable is a bit strange. I've seen the "reflect projectiles back at the enemy" or "kite them into the environment" in 3D platformers far too many times.[/QUOTE] That's true, but simultaneously it gets to such an extent that games very rarely veer from that stereotype. In fact, one of the most memorable parts of Bulletstorm, which otherwise employs Bullet Sponge-type (normal) and Lackey-type (final, inexplicably) bosses, is a room filled with toxic waste and health/ammo pickups in a circle around the room. Surprise, surprise! A big enemy bursts in, roars, sprints at you...and hits his head on a metal pipe, trips down the stairs, falls into the toxic waste and dies. One of the funniest parts of the game, because it became an exception to the rule. [QUOTE=Necrotic Fever;36828750]I always enjoy your videos, Kit. This episode was fantastic by the way, and I like how you're beginning to develop your own style. I hope to see more from you like this in future.[/QUOTE] Thank you! I have added a subscription to your own tally - I look forward to not only providing you and the rest of YouTube with more videos, but seeing what you produce!

I gotta give you credit for finding things that most other vloggers don't talk about. Pretty interesting episode.

Why are you screaming in every shot, and you speak too fast; mixed with your lisp is very unappealing. If you were to slow it down a bit, and lowered your voice it would make it come together a lot smoother.

How about the big monsters in Monster Hunter? Not sure if you've played that game, but a lot of the fights are about predicting boss patterns, using positioning to manipulate the AI, avoiding death dealing blows, and choosing the right weapon to enter the fight with.

[QUOTE=Protocol7;36828866]I gotta give you credit for finding things that most other vloggers don't talk about. Pretty interesting episode.[/QUOTE] Thank you! Always brings a smile to my face to know that I've brought something fresh to the (overlaid) YouTube table. [QUOTE=DentalDoctor;36828868]Why are you screaming in every shot, and you speak too fast; mixed with your lisp is very unappealing. If you were to slow it down a bit, and lowered your voice it would make it come together a lot smoother.[/QUOTE] Well, I'd be lying if I said that my over-the-top enthusiasm and delivery wasn't the entire point of my on-screen persona. If you go back to Episode 1 of the show, I have a much less enthusiastic delivery and the whole thing just looks boring. Keeping things bright, bubbly and loud is pretty much the only way I can edit these things together without growing bored/hating the sound of my own voice. I'm terribly sorry you don't like it; I hope I can start to grow on you! [B]And is my lisp really that bad?[/B] Everyone keeps bringing it up, and I wasn't sure it was especially terribly bad...

[QUOTE=KitAlexHarrison;36828955][B]And is my lisp really that bad?[/B] Everyone keeps bringing it up, and I wasn't sure it was especially terribly bad...[/QUOTE] I don't think so. It's noticeable, but not detrimental. It doesn't bother me at all to be honest.

The lisp is quite noticeable, but it doesn't make you unintelligible, so it's not a massive problem once you get used to it. Interesting video either way, it's well paced, not too long or too short, a few times you actually had me think of something to mention, just to cover it quickly anyway 9that section after the boss archetypes). I think there are a few more things you could have covered, but then the video would be longer, and probably lose the interest of some people. Though I must say, you are partially right. Boss fights today feel worse than a boss fight of the early and late 90's, but I think that's more to do with how games have changed rather than developers being lazy with bosses. And that we aren't as amazed by them any more. Take an old NES/ SNES era game for example, bosses back then were by and large repeating patterns and bullet sponges, but some of them were incredible to fight because of the scale. Back then seeing a massive enemy that takes up most of the screen was awesome. Today, we are used to seeing massive enemies, so it's not quite as amazing to see now. And as the mechanics of games changed with the advancements in technology and newer genres, bosses kind of got left behind. Gameplay got faster and more paced, bosses on the other hand are usually like roadblocks in the story and action. So I guess more people dislike them and we start to see more set piece "bosses" because of it.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;36829638]Interesting video either way, it's well paced, not too long or too short, a few times you actually had me think of something to mention, just to cover it quickly anyway 9that section after the boss archetypes). I think there are a few more things you could have covered, but then the video would be longer, and probably lose the interest of some people.[/QUOTE] That's exactly my reasoning. I could go very in-depth, but that would be to the detriment of viewer engagement. In an ideal world, each episode can start a discussion in the KitFez "fanbase" that I can them get involved in in more depth. I'd like to think the show conveys a genuine passion and knowledge of gaming, because that's the persona I'd like to give off (though not one of stuffiness and "holier-than-thou" opinions).

The problem with boss fights these days, I think, is that a lot of games don't include them because they're tricky to pull off right and you'll get some serious shit for it if it isn't. Deus Ex: Human Revolution is a good example of this. Yeah, it's a good game but there were considerable complaints about the boss fights. In fact, besides Arkham City, I can't even remember the last time I heard someone talking about a game having good boss fights. So yeah, too difficult to do them right so better leave them out rather than face criticism for poorly done bosses.

Great as always, don't know what's up with all the dumb people can't seem to get over the lisp in your voice and just enjoy your interesting discussion.

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;36831581]Great as always, don't know what's up with all the dumb people can't seem to get over the lisp in your voice and just enjoy your interesting discussion.[/QUOTE] Thank you very much! It's always good to hear that the show is interesting - and isn't awful!

The Metroid bosses are pretty good , great example of avoid, figure out movements, use tactic, rinse & repeat. Sure Ridley was just a pain in the ass bullet-sponge, but you still had to avoid his attacks. Same with Kraid, all you have to do is shoot his head and fill his mouth with lead, but you still have to dodge his... fingers... and the massive spikes that appear to launch out of his stomach. The prime games had some good examples of bosses that you had to learn their styles; the boost guardian would only become vunerable if you bombed the pile of goop he turned into; but until you could do that you had to avoid his fucking annoying and constant boost attacks which killed you 50% of the time. This boss was infamous for being a massive pain in the ass and actually had to be made a tonne easier for the Metroid prime Trilogy release. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgDUj4Uc2LM[/media] There's some other good examples like thardus , Mogenar , Quadraxis...

[QUOTE=Drax-Quin;36831581]Great as always, don't know what's up with all the dumb people can't seem to get over the lisp in your voice and just enjoy your interesting discussion.[/QUOTE] When you combine a quite noticeable lisp with fast-paced speaking, it's kinda hard not to wound up about it.

[QUOTE=Instant Mix;36836831]The Metroid bosses are pretty good , great example of avoid, figure out movements, use tactic, rinse & repeat. Sure Ridley was just a pain in the ass bullet-sponge, but you still had to avoid his attacks. Same with Kraid, all you have to do is shoot his head and fill his mouth with lead, but you still have to dodge his... fingers... and the massive spikes that appear to launch out of his stomach. The prime games had some good examples of bosses that you had to learn their styles; the boost guardian would only become vunerable if you bombed the pile of goop he turned into; but until you could do that you had to avoid his fucking annoying and constant boost attacks which killed you 50% of the time. This boss was infamous for being a massive pain in the ass and actually had to be made a tonne easier for the Metroid prime Trilogy release. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NgDUj4Uc2LM[/media] There's some other good examples like thardus , Mogenar , Quadraxis...[/QUOTE] That's a good one, actually. I forgot all about Metroid Prime's bosses (for shame, me! For shame!) I really enjoyed the Thardus boss fight as well (the big golem), except when he turned into a huge rolling rock and you had to boost away in Morph Ball mode (and because of the atrocious camera in that section, you were often unsure of where exactly you were going and where he was relative to you) - but that boss also made effective use of the Thermal Visor to judge where the best place to attack him was. However, the Phazon Mines are such a massive pain that I would argue the[I] level itself [/I]qualifies as a Lackey-type boss on its own. Over half an hour with no save point, damaging enemies, [I]two[/I] mini-boss fights, one against an Elite Pirate and one against a Drone that your regular lock-on doesn't work on, forcing you to pull a brand new way to play the game out of your backside to beat him. After that, you have to go through an electrified maze to get the Power Bomb upgrade, which you can then use to blast away the debris either side of the room. One door leads to your much-needed, now-mythical Save Station. The other is the way you go to continue. And if you go the former way first? Four pirates spawn in the room on your way back.

I've not seen that many FPS games which have imaginative bosses. The only one I can think of is the final boss in Serious Sam where you have to lure him into the middle for him to get killed - but that's pushing it. Third person games tend to have more imaginative posses, games like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden had bosses that used invincibility timers, attacks you either dodge or get killed by, phases that got more dramatic as you went along and more of what he spoke about.

[QUOTE=ChaosUnleash;36837827]I've not seen that many FPS games which have imaginative bosses. The only one I can think of is the final boss in Serious Sam where you have to lure him into the middle for him to get killed - but that's pushing it. Third person games tend to have more imaginative posses, games like Devil May Cry or Ninja Gaiden had bosses that used invincibility timers, attacks you either dodge or get killed by, phases that got more dramatic as you went along and more of what he spoke about.[/QUOTE] That's true. I recall the game Area 51 having a fair few decent boss battles, but off the top of my head that's about it. Did you ever play Transformers on PS2 (the one based on Armada, not the movies)? That actually had some pretty involved boss fights and an ambitious open-world setup for the console; I'm surprised it's not more well-known.