What is Gender? | Philosophy Tube - General

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I think while there is a spectrum of gender identity that most definitely affected by both your brain as well as social constructs, the kinds of people who come up with 4 different types of what it means to be something like Genderfluid are grasping at any and all straws they can to stand out. I don't think someone necessarily needs a label that specific to feel normal and if they do it's probably more than their gender that they have a problem with. Gender is definitely not a binary; however I feel the most progressive thing to do would be to let everyone act as they please without any labeling. The curious thing is that, at least in America, our culture is modeled on genders being grouped together from an early age (boys are friends with boys, girls are friends with girls). It's the one reliable thing a group has in common and can bond over. What would happen if we were all just people?

male = cock and balls female = vagina where cock goes in anythinfg else AND YOURE FUCKING AUTISTIC really [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Big Dumb American))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=_Chewgum;50225099]male = cock and balls female = vagina where cock goes in anythinfg else AND YOURE FUCKING AUTISTIC really[/QUOTE] U keep going like this and your gonna derail the thread into a million posts of transgenders saying the exact same thing.

[QUOTE=_Chewgum;50225099]male = cock and balls female = vagina where cock goes in anythinfg else AND YOURE FUCKING AUTISTIC really[/QUOTE] You're right, that's sex though, gender is whatever you identify as mentally. (like if you "feel" like a female but you are a male it's Gender dysphoria ect) Pretty sure there is science to back this up, although with today's technology there is no way you can "truly" become the other sex, only feel more comfortable with hormones and cosmetic surgery. Therefore you can be male and have your gender identity be female ect ect vice versa. You can form whatever opinions you want on people who have these feelings, but remember a lot of people aren't just snowflakes who make up 346347 genders for attention and actually feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, and respect their struggles.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;50225195]You can form whatever opinions you want on people who have these feelings, but remember a lot of people aren't just snowflakes who make up 346347 genders for attention and actually feel like a woman trapped in a man's body, and respect their struggles.[/QUOTE] I'm still pretty sure Gender dysphoria classifies as a mental illness. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are nutters, like how people with depression or some other mental illness might not be cuh-ray-zee, just that they probably need proffessional help more than validation of their state of mind.

[QUOTE=kattolil;50225242]I'm still pretty sure Gender dysphoria classifies as a mental illness. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying they are nutters, like how people with depression or some other mental illness might not be cuh-ray-zee, just that they probably need proffessional help more than validation of their state of mind.[/QUOTE] Yes, but could you also saying being gay is a mental illness since it's not normal? It's more of a condition or variation within the huge amount of parameters our bodies have, while some people, yes, may have identity struggles due to abuse or other trauma, I feel like for many others this is just the way they are. It's a very confusing topic to think about for me. I'm depressed, I've always been that way. Yet I go to therapy and get medication. Being gay or trans-gendered, people feel they have always been that way, yet the idea of "therapy" doesn't make much sense. They are two different things, yet something people deal with in different ways.

I'll never understand the needing to identify gender unless you're very flamboyant and want everyone to know how much of a special snowflake you are. If you're gay just say you're gay if needed. If you're bi just say you're bi if needed. And be done with it. You don't need to go prancing around telling everyone about how much you want a dick inside of you. Nobody cares. I'm bi, I don't tell anyone about it here every post because nobody would care.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;50225271]Yes, but could you also saying being gay is a mental illness since it's not normal? It's more of a condition or variation within the huge amount of parameters our bodies have, while some people, yes, may have identity struggles due to abuse or other trauma, I feel like for many others this is just the way they are. It's a very confusing topic to think about for me. I'm depressed, I've always been that way. Yet I go to therapy and get medication. Being gay or trans-gendered, people feel they have always been that way, yet the idea of "therapy" doesn't make much sense. They are two different things, yet something people deal with in different ways.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]mental illness noun a condition which causes serious disorder in a person's behavior or thinking.[/QUOTE] I guess being gay or trans gendered is technically a mental illness but that doesn't mean it's wrong in any way, it's just a condition which causes the persons behavior to differ from the norm. It does sound negative and derogatory to me personally though.

[QUOTE=Mobon1;50225072]I think while there is a spectrum of gender identity that most definitely affected by both your brain as well as social constructs, the kinds of people who come up with 4 different types of what it means to be something like Genderfluid are grasping at any and all straws they can to stand out. I don't think someone necessarily needs a label that specific to feel normal and if they do it's probably more than their gender that they have a problem with. Gender is definitely not a binary; however I feel the most progressive thing to do would be to let everyone act as they please without any labeling. The curious thing is that, at least in America, our culture is modeled on genders being grouped together from an early age (boys are friends with boys, girls are friends with girls). It's the one reliable thing a group has in common and can bond over. What would happen if we were all just people?[/QUOTE] As I see it, gender issues are just one of today's hotbutton issues, so it's not surprising that teenagers and adolescents - many of which are going through an experimental phase in their life during which they reevaluate their identity - have strong opinions on the matter, of various levels of informed. IMO it's just like what we had with hipsters and emos and punks and hippies before, and blogging about your opinions isn't really that different from cluttering your school bag in pins, hanging up band posters in your room or clothing yourself in a certain fashion style or brands that supposedly reflect who you are. And it can be just as obnoxious and pushy as the counter-cultures these things usually create in their wake. It's the same stuff every generation, just the topics vary.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;50225299]I'll never understand the needing to identify gender unless you're very flamboyant and want everyone to know how much of a special snowflake you are. If you're gay just say you're gay if needed. If you're bi just say you're bi if needed. And be done with it. You don't need to go prancing around telling everyone about how much you want a dick inside of you. Nobody cares. I'm bi, I don't tell anyone about it here every post because nobody would care.[/QUOTE] You're confusing sexuality and gender. Gay and bi are sexualities. Gender is a mental/social identity. The point isn't that they want to be able to go "prancing telling everyone they like dick." The main point is that they want the freedom to identify as the gender they see themselves as without being degraded or attacked.

i'm fine if you're a: male with a penis male with a vagina female with a vagina female with a penis now if you're genderqueer or genderfluid or whatever the hell else you call yourself you are full on autismo and you need to stop making things up and enter the real world it's LGBTQ not LGBTQLKJSDHKURHGLHGSRG [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Craptasket))[/highlight]

The thing that bothers me is that it's as if sex-surgery is almost promoted and praised for for and by transgender people. It is a very very serious thing to be cutting of a part of your body, especially genitalia. Now i dont know too much about what exactly is going on in this field but how much focus is being put in trying to persuade transgender people to not go through surgery and maybe get some therapy instead to get rid of the 'need' for having your genitalia cut?

[QUOTE=meppers;50225702]i'm fine if you're a: male with a penis male with a vagina female with a vagina female with a penis now if you're genderqueer or genderfluid or whatever the hell else you call yourself you are full on autismo and you need to stop making up things and enter the real world it's LGBTQ not LGBTQLKJSDHKURHGLHGSRG[/QUOTE] Personally I see nothing wrong with genderqueer or genderfluid. Some people just don't heavily identify with either gender, being genderqueer/fluid is basically saying "I dunno, somewhere inbetween I guess" [editline]29th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Xephio;50225706]The thing that bothers me is that it's as if sex-surgery is almost promoted and praised for for and by transgender people. It is a very very serious thing to be cutting of a part of your body, especially genitalia. Now i dont know too much about what exactly is going on in this field but how much focus is being put in trying to persuade transgender people to not go through surgery and maybe get some therapy instead to get rid of the 'need' for having your genitalia cut?[/QUOTE] Sexual reassignment is quite a lot more advanced than simply cutting off male genitalia. The vagina you get doesn't self lubricate, and there's no womb attatched to allow pregnancy, but you can use it for sex and get pleasure from it. (Almost) every trans person gets therapy, too. Nobody is going to allow you to get sexual reassignment without it. Whether or not you want the surgery is entirely up to you, too; I don't think I've ever seen a trans person arguing that trans people [I]need[/I] sexual reassignment. The reason it's promoted and praised is because for many trans women, it's what finally completes them. A lot of trans women suffer severe body dysphoria from having male genitals and it can cause depression, even suicidal depression in some. Other people may not care, or even enjoy being a lady with a dick.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;50225299]I'll never understand the needing to identify gender unless you're very flamboyant and want everyone to know how much of a special snowflake you are. If you're gay just say you're gay if needed. If you're bi just say you're bi if needed. And be done with it. You don't need to go prancing around telling everyone about how much you want a dick inside of you. Nobody cares. I'm bi, I don't tell anyone about it here every post because nobody would care.[/QUOTE] I...think you're confusing gender and sexuality. In any case, transgendered people don't have a need to identify their gender as like something different so they can be special, they already have a gender that they feel the need to match their body to. Like being gay, it's not something you choose, more just something you're stuck with. Otherwise, there'd be no trans people. And it's far from being about being a special snowflake or having everyone know your gender identity; away from the internet (where it's safe to talk about whatever you want with some degree of anonymity), most trans people do not want anyone to know they're trans and prefer to live life with everyone assuming they are a cis person of the gender they're living as, hence why you've probably seen a few trans people in your life and never known it, and why the idea of 'passing' exists. [QUOTE=Xephio;50225706]The thing that bothers me is that it's as if sex-surgery is almost promoted and praised for for and by transgender people. It is a very very serious thing to be cutting of a part of your body, especially genitalia. Now i dont know too much about what exactly is going on in this field but how much focus is being put in trying to persuade transgender people to not go through surgery and maybe get some therapy instead to get rid of the 'need' for having your genitalia cut?[/QUOTE] Yes, the process for doing this is very rigorous. It requires years of therapy, hormone treatment, and living life as the opposite gender before you can be considered for sex reassignment surgery. The surgery itself is very complex and hardly 'mutilation' or 'just chopping it off' like people think it is.

[QUOTE=Zadrave;50225299]I'll never understand the needing to identify gender unless you're very flamboyant and want everyone to know how much of a special snowflake you are. If you're gay just say you're gay if needed. If you're bi just say you're bi if needed. And be done with it. You don't need to go prancing around telling everyone about how much you want a dick inside of you. Nobody cares. I'm bi, I don't tell anyone about it here every post because nobody would care.[/QUOTE] hahah did you just equate sexual preference to gender? it's far from the same thing jfc imagine someone took you for a boy for a majority of your life, every day you don't feel as if you belong in your own body. when you realize you identify as something else, you [I]need[/I] validation from everyone else - we are social creatures that seek confirmation all the time from peers around us, we're not robots [editline]29th April 2016[/editline] And who gives a fuck if anyone wants to be a "special snowflake" anyway. as if it concerns you in the slightest? why does it matter to everyone else how it affects [I]you [/I] personally?

[QUOTE=Zadrave;50225299]I'll never understand the needing to identify gender unless you're very flamboyant and want everyone to know how much of a special snowflake you are. If you're gay just say you're gay if needed. If you're bi just say you're bi if needed. And be done with it. You don't need to go prancing around telling everyone about how much you want a dick inside of you. Nobody cares. I'm bi, I don't tell anyone about it here every post because nobody would care.[/QUOTE] The feeling of gender dysphoria is an actual psychological phenomenon that causes severe depression and anxiety. It's a personality disorder that is corrected most easily by aligning oneself with the gender they are psychologically aligned to. I'm calling it a personality disorder because the feeling of dysphoria (depression and anxiety related to gender) is very much a disorder of the mind in that they are the symptoms of not being aligned with your perceived gender. When the person suffering from dysphoria transitions successfully, the mental symptoms of dysphoria seem to go away. It's a constant feeling. It's not really something the person has a control over.

[QUOTE=Starlight 456;50225712]Personally I see nothing wrong with genderqueer or genderfluid. Some people just don't heavily identify with either gender, being genderqueer/fluid is basically saying "I dunno, somewhere inbetween I guess"[/QUOTE] what is the difference between that and being bisexual? this stuff is just so confusing.

[QUOTE=meppers;50226481]what is the difference between that and being bisexual? this stuff is just so confusing.[/QUOTE] [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_scale[/URL] a lot of research has shown that people aren't exactly black and white when it comes to sexuality. some people are extremely predominantly straight, while others are very homosexual, and then a lot of people end up falling into various shades of both(ie, "i think some men are handsome but i'd never be romantically attracted to them" from a male) additionally, gender is the word you -- ideally -- use to identify yourself as how you feel regarding your attraction to others from your own body. people are born with penises or vaginas(sometimes both), but not everyone necessarily feels like being assigned a gender based on their genitalia.

[QUOTE=meppers;50226481]what is the difference between that and being bisexual? this stuff is just so confusing.[/QUOTE] You might only be attracted to women but identify somewhere between male and female.

[QUOTE=meppers;50226481]what is the difference between that and being bisexual? this stuff is just so confusing.[/QUOTE] Ok, to break it down as simply as I can (sorry, human psychology and shit is complicated) Sex - Your physical body you're born with. Genitalia and whatnot. For clinical purposes we'll refer to this as being male or female, and I'll leave out intersex people. Sexuality - Who you are romantically or sexually attracted to. The main ones are being straight, gay, bisexual, pansexual, and asexual. You probably already know the first three, but pansexual basically means you're attracted to trans people as well as regular cis males and females while bisexual just means you're attracted to cis males and females. Asexual means you don't have a sexual attraction to males, females, or trans people. Gender - This is what you are in your mind, and how you want to present yourself. Most people's gender matches their sex, hence why people often lump the two together. When your gender matches your sex, you are a cisgendered person. When your gender doesn't match your sex, you are transgendered, and wish to permanently change your appearance, name, and voice to match that of the opposite sex. The last two kinds are genderfluid, and agender. Genderfluid people feel like their gender changes and they never fully commit to one, bouncing between them as it makes them comfortable. Agender people identify as neither gender and just go by they or it. Genderqueer is an umbrella term referring to any identity like that where it's not really masculine or feminine. Gender is what pronouns are based on. So I would call you 'He' because you identify as a man, not because you have a dick. None of these things are something that you choose. Naturally you have no input on your sex, but your sexuality and gender are also things that are out of your control. Like, if you're transgender, you're just stuck with it. There's more shit out there. People who identify as trigender or otherkin whatever, but you probably will never need to know about any of that. As far as I'm concerned, that's all the concrete, truthful info you'll need and then some.

[QUOTE=Glitchman;50225271]Yes, but could you also saying being gay is a mental illness since it's not normal? It's more of a condition or variation within the huge amount of parameters our bodies have, while some people, yes, may have identity struggles due to abuse or other trauma, I feel like for many others this is just the way they are. It's a very confusing topic to think about for me. I'm depressed, I've always been that way. Yet I go to therapy and get medication. Being gay or trans-gendered, people feel they have always been that way, yet the idea of "therapy" doesn't make much sense. They are two different things, yet something people deal with in different ways.[/QUOTE] Gender dysphoria [URL="http://www.dsm5.org/documents/gender%20dysphoria%20fact%20sheet.pdf"]is considered to be a disorder[/URL]. As the document says: [QUOTE]It is important to note that gender nonconformity is not in itself a mental disorder. The critical element of gender dysphoria is the presence of clinically significant distress associated with the condition.[/QUOTE] Being homosexual [URL="http://www.aglp.org/gap/1_history/#declassification"]was considered a mental disorder until 1973[/URL]. [QUOTE]Alfred Kinsey's and colleagues' study on male and female sexuality marked the beginning of a cultural shift away from the view of homosexuality as pathology and toward viewing it as a normal variant of human sexuality. Kinsey had criticized scientists' tendency to represent homosexuals and heterosexuals as "inherently different types of individuals."[/QUOTE]

Without stepping on people's toes, but is there an "official" list of symbols used for transgender/genderfluid? I saw a pink poster with about 20+ symbols and 80% of them look made up.

IN MY OPINION having more identities than just male and female is silly and is intentionally asking to make things more confusing than it needs to be.

[QUOTE=redBadger;50227918]IN MY OPINION having more identities than just male and female is silly and is intentionally asking to make things more confusing than it needs to be.[/QUOTE] That's why your opinion isn't taken into account when people ask to be respected for the simple choice of following through with the identity they feel attached too. Gender dysphoria is a very real and complex psychological phenomena. Leave it to medical and psychological experts to assess and treat, and you focus on treating people how they hope to be treated. There ya go confusion gone.

[QUOTE=luverofJ!93;50229073]That's why your opinion isn't taken into account when people ask to be respected for the simple choice of following through with the identity they feel attached too. Gender dysphoria is a very real and complex psychological phenomena. Leave it to medical and psychological experts to assess and treat, and you focus on treating people how they hope to be treated. There ya go confusion gone.[/QUOTE] Tbh i might just be a bit thick, but I really see no difference between Genderqueers/fluids, Pansexuals, Two-Spirited people, and asexuals, all of them to me are just "not really male nor female," and hence atleast to me, they sound more like meaningless buzzwords used to make yourself standout then actual terms.

one thing i always wonder is if people who consider themselves genderfluid would have ever given those feelings much thought if they didn't have the word for it. i know I hadn't felt the strange feeling of occasional intense want to be the opposite gender between when i was very young and recently when i began to learn about gender identites and such.

[QUOTE=Toro;50229110]Tbh i might just be a bit thick, but I really see no difference between Genderqueers/fluids, Pansexuals, Two-Spirited people, and asexuals, all of them to me are just "not really male nor female," and hence atleast to me, they sound more like meaningless buzzwords used to make yourself standout then actual terms.[/QUOTE] You are again confusing gender and sexuality, I don't know if you understand any of the terms you just used but they're definitely not similar Genderqueer is a gender; it simply means a person who doesn't believe themself to be exclusively male or female, meaning they could identify as both or neither or between the two or more. You can identify as whatever you like but that's unrelated to who you're attracted to (your sexuality) A pansexual would be a person who can be attracted to anyone, regardless of their sex or gender. It's considered different from bisexuality as bisexuality implies "attracted to either male or female people" whereas pansexuality drops those barriers completely. It's a sexuality, which is different from gender - you can be a male pansexual, a female pansexual, or a genderqueer pansexual (hey look at that) Asexuality is simply not being sexually attracted to anyone or anything. It's not really a sexuality, rather the lack of one. Because it's also a sexuality, you can still identify as a male or female or what have you and still not feel sexual attraction.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;50229154]one thing i always wonder is if people who consider themselves genderfluid would have ever given those feelings much thought if they didn't have the word for it. i know I hadn't felt the strange feeling of occasional intense want to be the opposite gender between when i was very young and recently when i began to learn about gender identites and such.[/QUOTE] I've been in counseling for gender dysphoria for around 6 months. I go through intense periods of periodically feeling the opposite gender to the point where occasionally I've researched and planned transitioning. I've been going through this since I was like 8. The most recent one lasted from last September till a month ago and during this period the thought of being male actually drove me into a suicidal episode that luckily a friend of mine called me and talked me down from. I went to gender counseling and took a hiatus from Spring semester do deal with it. Within the last few weeks the level of dysphoria suddenly fell sharply down and I'm relatively comfortable as my current gender at the moment. I can't explain to you why this happens or why it feels necessary to be a different gender, it's just a feeling. A feeling that I've had long before I researched any terminology. If my anatomy wasn't completely masculine and I was a very androgynous person I'm sure I would probably express myself during these episodes as a female to allieviate my dysphoria but because any amount of alignment with female gender would require way too much effort and be too permanent for something that waxes and wanes I just deal with it. I've never used the term genderfluid to describe my experience but I'm sure it falls in that category. I think the reason you probably haven't heard of things like this until it became more prominent is because of the taboo nature of talking about gender issues. That and the fact that many people in my situation simply kill themselves.

Genderqueer (and maybe Two-Spirited, don't personally have much experience with that label) is the only one on your short list that actually has to do with gender, so that's fun. The variety of human experiences is almost mind-boggingly huge, but most people are quick to just shunt them into one of two categories and go "that's it, that's all there is to it and anything else is either an aberration or made up" Like for instance, I'm Pansexual. It's basically like being bisexual, but it feels like it fits better since it doesn't feel as limiting/binary as bisexual does to me; I don't give two shits whether someone has so-and-so primary or secondary sex characteristics, it doesn't matter to me. And to go another layer down I'm also Panromantic, which I bet you can figure out what that is, after hearing about the first one. I guess my point is that people are really complex, and this stigma around people putting names to how they feel is unwarranted. We should let children (and people in general) figure themselves out, put names to their experiences, and let them change if they start to feel differently. Having no introspection is a lot worse than having an abundance of it, I think.