[video=youtube;UKolzHWc-Pc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKolzHWc-Pc[/video]
video is somewhat long, but he talks a lot about cooldowns vs. resources and player depth
I agree with everything here. I got Overwatch when it first came out, played it for about half a month, then haven't touched it since. Too many annoying things to deal with IMO
[QUOTE=Demolitions2;51737968]I agree with everything here. I got Overwatch when it first came out, played it for about half a month, then haven't touched it since. Too many annoying things to deal with IMO[/QUOTE]
That's the problem with games that try too hard to be over the top. With over the top design, you bring in design choices that are obnoxious for the sake of being over the top. That's why I really enjoy games like Rainbow Six Siege, and even to some degree TF2 (even though I stopped playing TF2 years ago), because the game still tries to keep its basic gameplay mechanics to a standard, thus causing opponents to be much less frustrating to play against. Both games have their reasonable "over the top" mechanics, but they are really tame compared to anything you'd find in Overwatch.
Look! This game has a really cool jetpack rocketlauncher character, and another character that can constantly dash and warp through time. Once you get past that "woah!" factor, these characters are really just nothing more than frustrating gimmicks. Other games that try to mimic Overwatch like Paladins suffer from this too. But even then, they still don't do it as badly as Overwatch.
Only near the beginning, and I think he's [B]way[/B] overvaluing the effect limited ammo has in TF2. It's been a long time since I played, but I don't think I ever went, "Oh no, if I only I had more ammo" very often at all.
He says there is no rocket jumping but as Pharrah you can totally rocket jump without using the specials, granted it doesn't get you far like in TF2, and it also drains your health, but eitherway it still exists.
Also there is a way to move faster, but it depends on if your team has Lucio, as Lucio you can give the entire team a speed boost assuming they are close to Lucio.
As for the skill ceiling, I think it'd be better to say it has low skill rafters. There's plenty of ways to be very effective with very little skill, but you still have the potential to do amazing things with enough skill. I think one of the double-edged swords of Overwatch is that you have plenty of opportunities to feel more powerful than you would in most any other FPS, but you also run into way more enraging nullshit.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;51738050]Only near the beginning, and I think he's [B]way[/B] overvaluing the effect limited ammo has in TF2. It's been a long time since I played, but I don't think I ever went, "Oh no, if I only I had more ammo" very often at all.[/QUOTE]
Although that was the specific point he was making, I think it's better applied to the weapons' magazines. As an example, soldier has to think about how many rockets he shoots. He could wait until there's a better shot to maximize damage, consider whether or not to use one to rocket jump into an enemy, whether to keep one to escape with, either rocket jumping or juggling an enemy out of your face. And you need to weigh all that with your own skill, like if you can use the slower projectile to hit at just the right spot at their feet to stop their momentum or whether you can pull off the jump.
This still happens in Overwatch, but the rockets are much faster, you have a bigger clip and you reload very quickly. I think the fact that Pharah can reload 6 rockets in the time soldier can almost reload two sums up my feelings about the game pretty well.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;51738050]Only near the beginning, and I think he's [B]way[/B] overvaluing the effect limited ammo has in TF2. It's been a long time since I played, but I don't think I ever went, "Oh no, if I only I had more ammo" very often at all.[/QUOTE]
Ammo severely limits both Demoman and Soldier in the game. (Heavy and Pyro as well)
Soldier is nowhere near as scary if he's running low on rockets and only has 1 in the chamber.
He's also nowhere near as mobile.
Overwatch's system pretty much rewards 24/7 choke spamming.
ESPECIALLY with Junkrat.
I don't understand why TF2 players use such a huge FOV. It's visually sickening.
[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;51738191]I don't understand why TF2 players use such a huge FOV. It's visually sickening.[/QUOTE]
Overwatch actually runs at a higher fov.
Tf2 is 90
Overwatch is 103(?) I think
[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;51738191]I don't understand why TF2 players use such a huge FOV. It's visually sickening.[/QUOTE]
It's so you have more of the map in your vision. It's an old Arena shooter thing where reaction time and situational awareness was more important than sick headshots.
[QUOTE=Alxnotorious;51738191]I don't understand why TF2 players use such a huge FOV. It's visually sickening.[/QUOTE]
...that's not really just a TF2 thing
[QUOTE=Mingebox;51738050]Only near the beginning, and I think he's [B]way[/B] overvaluing the effect limited ammo has in TF2. It's been a long time since I played, but I don't think I ever went, "Oh no, if I only I had more ammo" very often at all.[/QUOTE]
in tf2 you have characters who rely heavily on resources and how you spend them. heavy, pyro, engineer and even medic put you in a position where knowing when to use your resources and how much of them you should have at any time is th difference between going 1v1 unnarmed and survival.
Overwatch is decent fun with some friends but it's post launch support has been dismal at best.
Half a year and only 2 new maps and 2 new heros. Mostly lackluster holiday content with a vast majority (pretty much 99%) of cosmetics being holiday locked. So basically if you buy the game after this most recent event, you'll be stuck with all the cosmetics and content from the base game.
In the beginning TF2 updated at a very similar pace as Overwatch does now, but it's support skyrocketed after the first Goldrush update. Not to mention that TF2, unlike Overwatch, supported community servers. So if you got bored with the maps in the base game, there were TONS of custom maps to choose from.
While the two games clearly have similarities, they are both vastly different games. I just think Overwatch is suffering from very poor and lackluster post-launch content. Nothing truly inspiring or innovative came out of any update.
Team Fortress 2 is a dying game, and it's popularity has diminished. But its affect has already been made on myself and countless other players. Overwatch has definitely been vastly more popular, but TF2 was by far the better game in all aspects. Don't think Overwatch will steal as many hours from my life as TF2 has.
Yes, TF2 did have Halloween locked content, but it's not the same when you have so many more options that aren't locked. Plus, it makes those items even more special when you can only enable them during full moon and halloween itself.
[QUOTE=Mingebox;51738050]Only near the beginning, and I think he's [B]way[/B] overvaluing the effect limited ammo has in TF2. It's been a long time since I played, but I don't think I ever went, "Oh no, if I only I had more ammo" very often at all.[/QUOTE]
Because the game has ingrained into you to top off. Engineers in particular, heavily rely on ammo. Same with Heavy and Pyro.
Running for resources is more of a subconscious thing than something you have to think. There are also many ways to resupply ammo in tf2 other than just running for the nearest ammo pack. One being dispensers, another being weapons from fallen players. It's still very actively important, and requires players to sometimes make a retreat to top off.
[QUOTE=Oizen;51738208]Overwatch actually runs at a higher fov.
Tf2 is 90
Overwatch is 103(?) I think[/QUOTE]
Source FoV is calcuated in 4:3. So if you play at 16:9 90 is actually closer to 106
tf2 is such a better game it's ridiculous. you can actually outskill somebody 1 on 1, instead of the clusterfuck going on in overwatch that is the least personal pvp i've played to date. everyone's focusing on too much at any given time that you'll constantly be killing people who didn't even know you where there or vice versa
only thing i really agree on is the shit map design that forces teams to go through one chokepoint.
cooldowns are a resource on their own, his argument that it's either on or off while ammo is more dynamic doesn't really hold much water because OW abilities are usually powerful like Roadhog hook, Zarya shields (Makes you immune to a lot of effects like hooks/mei freezing you), knowing Soldier burned his heal means that he can't heal, knowing mcree threw down his flash means you dont have to worry about being stunned etc. There is nothing wrong with cooldowns, it's just a different design thing.
also tf2 has dispensers and it's very common for ammo boxes to be half or full refills.
ults could be more unique but it's more of a moba thing again where taking a certain hero makes both teams play around them. While ana is really good right now, mercy's ult is a big game changer. You cannot trivialize them by saying "just use them in big crowds!!!". This ties in again with cooldowns which he fails to understand. Mercy needs to consider if it's worth rezing her team or not. Rezzing different people at different times have trade offs because if you make a bad decision then your ult is gone and you may have wasted it. Of course if you can ressurect your entire team then that's a no brainer but this almost never happens, and even if it does you somehow have to be in range to resurrect everyone and expose yourself to danger. Or do you want to be safe and not take the risk and only rez some of your team?
The only resource management I could ever remember in TF2 was building stuff as Engineer. Otherwise dispensers gave you ammo, carts gave you ammo, there was usually to always a ammo box near a health kit if you went that way.
Sure Overwatch is a lot more spammy in regards of its guns, but a lot what he explained for what he enjoyed about TF2 is present at high level Overwatch play. You won't find that depth in a community TF2 server as matchmaking in Overwatch will always pair you with people closest to your skill. Fuck I remember my old server, people ranged from the most casual players (including myself) to regulars that also played at competitive levels. Those guys are still my friends, including an FPer simzboy .
[editline]27th January 2017[/editline]
I'm not saying Overwatch is perfect either. Every control point map needs to burn in hell, and Eichenwalde needs to fix its first and last points to include more paths for those not able to use their movement abilities to circle around. My most favorite maps of all the FPSs I've ever played include Badlands and Granary, and that's because of the amount of variety and paths those maps have.
12v12 and 6v6 is totally different
there's going to be way more weapons from dead players, and resource management isn't going to matter as much
along with that, people don't play engineer as much, so there's a lower chance of there being a dispenser up at all times
I think Overwatch has way too much CC and disables though.
I think his point about the maps being too linear compared to TF2 doesn't stand, TF2 is designed to support (on average) 12v12 players while Overwatch only supports 6v6.
If the maps were too open, you would spend a lot of time either looking for enemies or, as a defender, struggle to hold your front line.
its not about how open it is, its about forking paths and chokeholds
[QUOTE=_FR_Starfox64;51738753]I think his point about the maps being too linear compared to TF2 doesn't stand, TF2 is designed to support (on average) 12v12 players while Overwatch only supports 6v6.
If the maps were too open, you would spend a lot of time either looking for enemies or, as a defender, struggle to hold your front line.[/QUOTE]
I think its perfectly valid.
I mean count how many times you have a choke point with only one altnerante route that leads 3 feet from the main route in overwatch.
Compared to one ofTf2's most infamous 2cp maps, dustbowl, even it has a longer indirect route that you have to physically go out of your way to check on defense.
While in overwatch they seem to really love having a door with a little window raised on a platform 3 feet to the right of said door. Its kinda why Reinhardt is so pivital in these maps, theres really no other route to take.
[QUOTE=BackSapper;51738600]The only resource management I could ever remember in TF2 was building stuff as Engineer. Otherwise dispensers gave you ammo, carts gave you ammo, there was usually to always a ammo box near a health kit if you went that way.
Sure Overwatch is a lot more spammy in regards of its guns, but a lot what he explained for what he enjoyed about TF2 is present at high level Overwatch play. You won't find that depth in a community TF2 server as matchmaking in Overwatch will always pair you with people closest to your skill. Fuck I remember my old server, people ranged from the most casual players (including myself) to regulars that also played at competitive levels. Those guys are still my friends, including an FPer simzboy .
[editline]27th January 2017[/editline]
I'm not saying Overwatch is perfect either. Every control point map needs to burn in hell, and Eichenwalde needs to fix its first and last points to include more paths for those not able to use their movement abilities to circle around. My most favorite maps of all the FPSs I've ever played include Badlands and Granary, and that's because of the amount of variety and paths those maps have.[/QUOTE]
Plenty of stuff gave you ammo in tf2, but usually they require you to be in certain spots. That's what made Engineer a powerful character, as his dispenser could set up a forward base so friendlies didn't have to look for resources.
Also I know for a fact Overwatch doesn't pair you with people closest to your skill. Not that that's something that can be fixed, as accurately measuring skill isn't really possible.
Anyways, his point was cooldowns capped skill in the game. Like making escaping from a firefight no longer possible because of an artificial restriction. That's not something that can be fixed by playing better.
putting a cooldown on a specific mobility option on a certain hero seems now like a rather bad concept.
if we compare this to tf2, most penalties to said mobility options come at the cost of a portion of own health.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51738823]Plenty of stuff gave you ammo in tf2, but usually they require you to be in certain spots. That's what made Engineer a powerful character, as his dispenser could set up a forward base so friendlies didn't have to look for resources.
Also I know for a fact Overwatch doesn't pair you with people closest to your skill. Not that that's something that can be fixed, as accurately measuring skill isn't really possible.
Anyways, his point was cooldowns capped skill in the game. Like making escaping from a firefight no longer possible because of an artificial restriction. That's not something that can be fixed by playing better.[/QUOTE]
More of my point is that Overwatch still has a hidden MMR that puts people with relatively the same MMR as them in the same game. Of course, MMR does not equal skill, but it's not like old TF2 where you can drop in to a random server and there could be the most skilled players and the most casual (as my example of my old server and group of friends).
[editline]27th January 2017[/editline]
And Overwatch is still a FPS at its core, with a critical strike mechanic with headshots. Yes there are cooldowns, but your skill in aiming does make or break fights. All cooldowns do is make it a more accessible game because then shooting isn't the [I]only[/I] way to kill things, and I'm fine with that.
[editline]27th January 2017[/editline]
Honestly, the cooldowns are not the problem. It's the strong ultimate abilities. He touched point on it being that a lot of them are group based and are abused to use them in large clumps. If they lessened the reliance on ultimate abilities, it would be a lot more of a competitive game.
[QUOTE=Stiffy360;51738823]Anyways, his point was cooldowns capped skill in the game. Like making escaping from a firefight no longer possible because of an artificial restriction. That's not something that can be fixed by playing better.[/QUOTE]
And the same can be said with resource capped skill. Oh well, ran out of ammo and now I can't kill this person and have a better chance of escaping, whoops! I feel like the types who make these kinds of videos and go on these kinds of rants are always the ones who overextend, don't possess any situational awareness, are in bad positions 90% of the time, and most important of all, don't understand when they're not doing their job.
I kind of understand where he's coming from, but saying the game has a "lower" skill cap doesn't make much sense. His point that having ability/cooldown based utility makes the game less skillful is the one thing I most strongly disagree with. You can 100% choose when and how you use your ability, it's called...waiting to use it? The cooldown exists for the purpose of balance, and makes it more punishing when you fuck up and use a certain ability at the wrong time. How is this any different than if you relied on resources? I listened to him rant about it for almost 12 minutes and I still don't see how it's any different.
Okay, so you use an ability at one time and it works out fine, and then later you are stuck with your ass in the wind because you didn't have that one ability and it was still on cooldown. Once again, how is that ANY different with a resource system? What if you ran out of ammo or used too much earlier and now don't have enough to survive? It can easily go both ways, 100% of the time. And it's not just about abilities. He talks about cooldowns for almost half the video. Having good aim is definitely important, there have been SO MANY times where a Reinhardt has pinned a teammate and the Rein is almost dead but I miss all my shots and the teammate dies. There have been MANY times where I can smell an incoming Pharah ult but I miss all my shots and low and behold, justice rains from above. There have been COUNTLESS times where I could have saved a single teammate or multiple teammates from dying if I had just a smidge better aim. Being good at FPS plays a huge role in this, it's not just "pressing buttons until you can't anymore".
If you're Tracer and you burn all your blinks and still end up not being able to escape, that's on you for blinking to bad spots to begin with and not having any good map or situational awareness. Get killed in a fight because you entered without any blinks? That's on you because you didn't wait for them to replenish, which you can 100% do. It's called waiting. Stay behind your Reinhardt. Go behind a fucking wall. It's not that hard. It's absolutely no different than waiting in cover to reload in a "resource" based system or leaving the fight to top up.
Of course with other abilities that have much longer cooldowns, it is a bit different but still largely the same. If you're playing as Reinhardt and you charge into a bad spot, that's on you. It's all about communication and if you aren't communicating to your team with what you're about to do, and they aren't there to push with you to back you up, then that's on YOU.
You know what's funny? I've had a much easier time with Overwatch when I started doing this thing called "counting". Every weapon has infinite ammo, but pretty much every single gun in the game has to be reloaded at some point. Character knowledge. Count the shots. Want to go up against a Reaper who's out of position? If you were paying attention to him earlier, you could have figured out how many shots he has left and whether or not he reloaded. I've found the game to be SO MUCH easier after doing this. If I'm going after a specific enemy, I only engage when I know they are about to reload or are even in the middle of reloading. And you should only ever engage enemies you know you can deal with. Once again, going completely back to character knowledge. This is something easier said than done, but goes back to proper communication and working as a unit.
The same of course applies to paying attention to ability uses. Something I've become very good at is predicting when and where an enemy ult might occur and so far I've been right about 75% of the time. It's all based on character knowledge and awareness. Being able to predict and outplay is what Overwatch is about, and in my opinion that is what makes it really good.
As far as one player not being able to "do much", complete and 100% bullshit. A single player's decision has easily far more impact in the progress of a match than anything ever did in TF2. I poured a ton of time into that game too and not once did I ever feel like a "one man army" or ever particularly useful to the team. It was mostly a lot of running around and a lot of dying. Maybe I was just absolutely shit at it. Who knows.
On the flip side with Overwatch, I've had many moments where me deciding when to act has turned the tables of a match. And not just with abilities. Just general shit, like choosing when to come out of cover and attempt to make a push. When to start shooting at someone and who to shoot at. When and where to move to in an effort to distract the enemy team so my team can move in. There's a lot more in there than what this guy is talking about, and it's only something that I've experienced when I'm playing with people who are equally competent (which let's face it, is few and far between if you solo).
Overwatch is 100% a team-centric game, and as such boils down to working together. And not just in coordinating abilities and all that shit. Specifically in awareness and watching each others backs. That existed in TF2 as well but the game hinged much less on it.
When it comes to map design he is absolutely right though. I don't know what it is with Blizzard and loving those choke points, I'm really sick of them and they devolve into very boring fights that almost feel like stalemates in some cases.
One of my biggest gripes about Overwatch is how there are large portions of the maps where there's little to no fighting occuring. (Most notably in the 2CP maps). Defending isn't exciting, since you can't effectively push back attackers past your choke point. There's only ever 2 or 3 major combat areas, and they're all at chokes.
In TF2, it's an ebb and flow of each side making ground over the other. We've all had games on Dustbowl or Gorge where the defenders pushed back to the first point or even the attackers spawn. It gives the game much more variety, and makes matches more 'worth it' afterwards.
Whereas with Overwatch, it's usually about who can use their ultimate to clear the point/choke while the rest of the team tries to get kill any stragglers
I feel like the gameplay of TF2 is timeless, but the game itself isn't. If that makes sense. I'm glad that in the end its inspirations are so clear in Overwatch because it makes me optimistic for a future where developers will reference what Valve did right in TF2 and implement those ideas into their own team based shooters while adding additional influences and changes like Overwatch did.
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