How to Make the ATF Hate You - Firearm Company Creates "No-Classification" Firearm - General

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WP5KbWOe64g[/media] I... What? The guy who made this gun, most have the biggest shit-eating grin on his face daily after pulling this. He literally just surfed the grey, and somehow managed to come out on top, while taking the royal piss out of the ATF's classification system.

Good the ATF can go fuck themselves.

Wait, hold on "I'm not shouldering it cause I don't want the ATF pulling our videos off", can you [I]seriously[/I] get in trouble for holding the same exact weapon the wrong way? And I thought the pistol grip stuff was bad, what the fuck is wrong with the ATF.

No need to pay tax or certification fees or any of that crap, just 1500 for a shotgun.

Every form of craft in the world, even gun smithing now, gets sort of things. I love seeing stuff like this, where people create joke items that show off the creator's skill while also being funny and/or exploitive of the rules

It seems like you could conceal it really easily and it's all thanks to the way the barrel is. I also like how small it is, as the guy says in the video it is really practical for home defence.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;49997382]No need to pay tax or certification fees or any of that crap, just 1500 for a shotgun.[/QUOTE] For a "shotgun" :smug:

[QUOTE=KennyAwsum;49997404]It seems like you could conceal it really easily and it's all thanks to the way the barrel is. I also like how small it is, as the guy says in the video it is really practical for home defence.[/QUOTE] Even with the 5 round mag removed, that's hard to hide on your person. The stock eats up a lot of space, so unless you enjoy wearing trench coats 2 sizes too big year round, you're not gonna hide it. On the other hand, you can hide that thing in many other places that a traditional shotgun could not go, even with the barrel removed. You can hide that in a drawer or right over a door frame in your closet. As for home defense, it's not that great. People who use shotguns for home defense prefer a stock that can be shouldered and not turn the gun illegal in the process. You have to shoot it with only your hands on the pistol grip and pump. No shoulder allowed. So you have people sticking with hunting, combat, and NFA shotguns for home defense.

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;49997380]Wait, hold on "I'm not shouldering it cause I don't want the ATF pulling our videos off", can you [I]seriously[/I] get in trouble for holding the same exact weapon the wrong way? And I thought the pistol grip stuff was bad, what the fuck is wrong with the ATF.[/QUOTE] BATFE is the most crooked and corrupt government division out there.

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;49997380]Wait, hold on "I'm not shouldering it cause I don't want the ATF pulling our videos off", can you [I]seriously[/I] get in trouble for holding the same exact weapon the wrong way? And I thought the pistol grip stuff was bad, what the fuck is wrong with the ATF.[/QUOTE] The ATF is known for being fucktarded. They recently [url=http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/09/foghorn/breaking-atf-declares-soda-can-launcher-an-aow-all-owners-now-possibly-felons/]outlawed an AR-15 can launcher[/url], because it may have been possible to modify it into a grenade launcher. They also are the amazing agency which outlawed shoe strings from being used on firearms, outlawed slamfiring to a degree, and went full-retard regarding a weapon brace that was used by disabled people because it could be used for a short barreled rifle/shotgun.

Two agencies in the US desperately need to be completely dismantled and reformed and that's the ATF and the BLM. They're run away agencies that just cause fuck-up after fuck-up, always walk the razors edge of the constitution. In the ATF's case they get to pass all sort of bullshit nonsense legislation that make no sense for the sake of.. I don't honestly know. There is nothing worse than waking up in the morning and finding out you have a couple felonies in your safe because someone decided to make some arbitrary cosmetic feature illegal to make themselves feel safer.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49997955]The ATF is known for being fucktarded. They recently [url=http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/09/foghorn/breaking-atf-declares-soda-can-launcher-an-aow-all-owners-now-possibly-felons/]outlawed an AR-15 can launcher[/url], because it may have been possible to modify it into a grenade launcher. They also are the amazing agency which outlawed shoe strings from being used on firearms, outlawed slamfiring to a degree, and went full-retard regarding a weapon brace that was used by disabled people because it could be used for a short barreled rifle/shotgun.[/QUOTE] Aww what no they banned the can cannon? That sucks! That thing looked fun as shit!

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;49998794]So what makes it so special that it's counted as a firearm and not anything else. Talk to me like I'm stupid and know nothing about guns.[/QUOTE] You could try watching the video, he explains it in the first five minutes.

[QUOTE=simkas;49998979]You could try watching the video, he explains it in the first five minutes.[/QUOTE] If you watch it and still don't understand, don't feel bad. It doesn't make sense to us either.

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;49997380]Wait, hold on "I'm not shouldering it cause I don't want the ATF pulling our videos off", can you [I]seriously[/I] get in trouble for holding the same exact weapon the wrong way? And I thought the pistol grip stuff was bad, what the fuck is wrong with the ATF.[/QUOTE] The ATF is basically what you get when you mix incompetent bureaucracy with an anti-gun agenda and give them regulatory powers over firearms. They're the biggest joke in Federal Law Enforcement.

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;49998794]So what makes it so special that it's counted as a firearm and not anything else. Talk to me like I'm stupid and know nothing about guns.[/QUOTE] There are special rules about buying/transferring guns based on whether they're a "pistol", "short barreled rifle", or whatever. This is designed such that (as per the current ATF classifications), it falls in to none of those categories and so is classified as just a "firearm".

[QUOTE=Teddybeer;49998794]So what makes it so special that it's counted as a firearm and not anything else. Talk to me like I'm stupid and know nothing about guns.[/QUOTE] It's to do with the requirements for the ATF's various categories of firearms. To wit: A shotgun or short barreled shotgun must be manufactured with a stock, this uses the SIG brace which is legally not a stock therefore it can't be a shotgun. A handgun must not have a second forward grip, this needs a vertical grip to operate therefore it can't be a handgun. An AOW (Any other weapon) must be shorter than 26 inches long overall, this is 26.5" with the SIG brace fully extended therefore it can't be an AOW. So to the ATF, it's just a "Firearm", a catch-all non-NFA category for any weapon that can't be put in any other category.

Modern art..

[QUOTE=Thunderbolt;49997380]Wait, hold on "I'm not shouldering it cause I don't want the ATF pulling our videos off", can you [I]seriously[/I] get in trouble for holding the same exact weapon the wrong way? And I thought the pistol grip stuff was bad, what the fuck is wrong with the ATF.[/QUOTE] The only thing keeping this from being a "shotgun" is that it is using a "brace", which is meant to be strapped to the forearm, and not a "stock" which is meant to be held against the shoulder. [url=https://www.atf.gov/file/11816/download]This letter from the ATF describes the situation[/url]. The whole law is kind of a mess, both because it didn't care about a lot of things (a Luger with a stock is somehow more restricted than an AR-15), and because its definitions aren't based on what the law actually cares about. The [url=https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921]definitions[/url] are based on things like "intended to be fired from the shoulder", not things like "of a size which can be readily concealed", which is the main [I]functional[/I] difference between a handgun and a long gun (rifle/shotgun). Obviously you'd need a more stringent definition, but it shouldn't be one that can be gamed easily. Defining it by use like that is too easy to game. Because of the way the law is written, the common-language interpretation makes a brace [I]not[/I] a stock when used as directed. The blame should rightfully fall on Congress for writing such a poorly-worded law, not on the ATF for interpreting it logically. If the ATF did the common-sense thing and said "this is clearly usable as a stock with no physical modifications, any weapon using it counts as a rifle or shotgun", they could get slapped down by the courts for trying to invent their own laws.

Why do I feel like I've been put on a watchlist somewhere just for watching this video

Um, isn't this an AOW? Don't they have to pay a $5 tax stamp for this?

"hey guys we made a shitty gun to be spiteful to the ATF so you can sell it to anyone!" [editline]24th March 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=gman003-main;50001231] Because of the way the law is written, the common-language interpretation makes a brace [I]not[/I] a stock when used as directed. [B]The blame should rightfully fall on Congress for writing such a poorly-worded law[/B], not on the ATF for interpreting it logically. If the ATF did the common-sense thing and said "this is clearly usable as a stock with no physical modifications, any weapon using it counts as a rifle or shotgun", they could get slapped down by the courts for trying to invent their own laws.[/QUOTE] hey the NRA payed alot for those shitty written laws!

[QUOTE=TacticalBacon;50000650]It's to do with the requirements for the ATF's various categories of firearms. To wit: A shotgun or short barreled shotgun must be manufactured with a stock, this uses the SIG brace which is legally not a stock therefore it can't be a shotgun. A handgun must not have a second forward grip, this needs a vertical grip to operate therefore it can't be a handgun. An AOW (Any other weapon) must be shorter than 26 inches long overall, this is 26.5" with the SIG brace fully extended therefore it can't be an AOW. So to the ATF, it's just a "Firearm", a catch-all non-NFA category for any weapon that can't be put in any other category.[/QUOTE] What about classifications as a rifle? Likely the dumbest question in the thread, but I know zero about gun classifications. Can't it be a rifle, as rifles seem to be a good length and be able to have a grip? Not sure about the stock, though.

[QUOTE=Sableye;50001377]"hey guys we made a shitty gun to be spiteful to the ATF so you can sell it to anyone!" [editline]24th March 2016[/editline] hey the NRA payed alot for those shitty written laws![/QUOTE] The NRA also lobbied against those laws because those laws are some of the worst laws in the modern american world. They're entirely based on bullshit scare tactics, misinformation, and they rely upon those things being bought into without question. Those laws were, and still are, by and large, horseshit.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;50001394]What about classifications as a rifle? Likely the dumbest question in the thread, but I know zero about gun classifications. Can't it be a rifle, as rifles seem to be a good length and be able to have a grip? Not sure about the stock, though.[/QUOTE] Forgot that one, can't be a rifle because it's a smoothbore barrel rather than a rifled one.

[QUOTE=LegndNikko;50001394]What about classifications as a rifle? Likely the dumbest question in the thread, but I know zero about gun classifications. Can't it be a rifle, as rifles seem to be a good length and be able to have a grip? Not sure about the stock, though.[/QUOTE] The definitions work like this: A "firearm" is anything that fires a projectile by explosives, or can be readily modified to do so. For regulatory purposes, a firearm frame, a silencer, or a "destructive device" also qualify as a firearm, while "antique firearms" are exempted. A "destructive device" is any bomb, grenade, or mine; any rocket or missile over a certain size; any weapon firing a projectile greater than half an inch in diameter that is not a shotgun with recognized sporting purpose; or any set of parts that will convert an item into a destructive device. A "shotgun" is a firearm with a smooth bore, fired from the shoulder A "rifle" is a firearm with a rifled bore, fired from the shoulder, that fires only a single projectile at a time. A "handgun" is a firearm designed to be held and fired from a single hand An "antique firearm" is anything made before 1898, any muzzleloading firearm using loose black powder, or any replica firearm that uses ammunition that is no longer manufactured or readily available. This firearm is, for legal purposes, "not intended to be fired from the shoulder", and therefore cannot be a shotgun or rifle. It also cannot be a rifle because it has a smooth bore. Because it requires two hands to operate, it cannot be classified as a handgun. It uses readily available cartridges and is less than a century old, so it's not an antique firearm. And it does not [I]currently[/I] fall under the Destructive Device category, although if they continue to hype up how they're bypassing NFA regulations, they could be. The bore is greater than 0.5", and so the ATF could declare it to have no recognized sporting purpose, and thus be a destructive device. This has been done to other shotguns that in some way angered the powers that be - most notably the Street Sweeper, AKA Striker, which honestly didn't deserve it but the name alone caused enough outrage that the ATF sacrificed it to try to stave off more bad legislation (which happened anyways, eventually, with the Assault Weapons Ban, but that's another story).

Just wait, in 6 months the ATF will individually declare it an illegal weapon. They really need to be torn apart and restructured with less ability to just make shit up as they go.

[QUOTE=zombini;50001567]Just wait, in 6 months the ATF will individually declare it an illegal weapon. They really need to be torn apart and restructured with less ability to just make shit up as they go.[/QUOTE] The problem really isn't the ATF. They're doing the best they can with bad laws on the books, and with a legislature that seems to want to pass even worse laws instead of fix things.

[QUOTE=JoeSkylynx;49997955]The ATF is known for being fucktarded. They recently [url=http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/09/foghorn/breaking-atf-declares-soda-can-launcher-an-aow-all-owners-now-possibly-felons/]outlawed an AR-15 can launcher[/url], because it may have been possible to modify it into a grenade launcher. They also are the amazing agency which outlawed shoe strings from being used on firearms, outlawed slamfiring to a degree, and went full-retard regarding a weapon brace that was used by disabled people because it could be used for a short barreled rifle/shotgun.[/QUOTE] they actually outlawed it because it made the gun into an sbr because it was under 16 inches

The [I]entire[/I] book of federal firearms law needs to be burned and rebuilt from the ground up but frankly I don't trust our government to not make the problem even worse if that were somehow made to happen.