Money as Debt III: Evolution Beyond Money (Paul Gringon) - General

Currently about half way through this, so far it is very much like the preceding ones except it attempts to propose a digital coin based solution a bit different from Bitcoin. Worth a watch I'd say, especially if you haven't seen the other two. [video=youtube;kRLgixzM3LE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRLgixzM3LE[/video]

Stopped the video at "completely freed from every government." Among dozens of other examples, how are you going to deal with CRIME? [editline]30th May 2012[/editline] Video states "obvious problem of our financial system is that it rewards greed and corruption... But are greed and corruption the root causes of the problem or are they the result of the way the system is built?" Greed and corrupting ARE the root cause of the problem. Wanting more than what you have is natural human instinct. That's why people like Mother Teresa are lauded as heroes because they've managed to overcome it. It's not something that's magically created by the governmental and economic systems we have today and unless you force them to play nice by passing laws (something that you need some form of government to do)

I don't remember the "freed from every government part". What type of crime do you refer to? Greed and corruption will continue to exist with government or without and are indeed the main part of the problem. I would say that passing laws doesn't really do a great deal because the corporations that the laws seek to control tend to be the vested interests of members of the government. Off the top of my head an alternative monetary system could have a reputation system to counteract crime somewhat by enabling blacklisting of the serial numbers of stolen currency meaning that places where legitimate transactions occur could reject those holding currency with negative reputation. I'm probably wrong but I'm doing a lot of thinking lately so I'm using writing this as an opportunity to explore my own developing ideas as well as reply to you. Thanks for your input by the way :)

Things with intrinsic value: -Gold -Silver why on earth do they have an 'intrinsic' value? Because they are shiny?

Yeah, yay shiny things Realistically the only reason they're valuable is because of government backing and their perceived value accepted by many of the citizenry. Want to start an economy without precious metals? Watch out for the government and their guns.

You sound paranoid, what connection do you have between money not being tied to precious metals and the government coming at you with guns?

The cameras in the lamp posts!

That is a very tenuous connection

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36141202]Things with intrinsic value: -Gold -Silver why on earth do they have an 'intrinsic' value? Because they are shiny?[/QUOTE] Because they're rare, the rarer something is generally the more it is worth.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36141202]Things with intrinsic value: -Gold -Silver why on earth do they have an 'intrinsic' value? Because they are shiny?[/QUOTE] Well silver is used in a lot of things such as old style cookware and gold I remember is an ingredient in nuclear warheads. So now they do have their uses.

[QUOTE=Hidole555;36144131]Well silver is used in a lot of things such as old style cookware and gold I remember is an ingredient in nuclear warheads. So now they do have their uses.[/QUOTE] So gold and silver have intrinsic value because a) they are rare and b) they are used in cookware and nuclear warheads. Can anyone see why those reasons are terrible?

Yeah. Just because they have those uses doesn't make them worth a great deal. [editline]1st June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Hidole555;36137146] Video states "obvious problem of our financial system is that it rewards greed and corruption... But are greed and corruption the root causes of the problem or are they the result of the way the system is built?" Greed and corrupting ARE the root cause of the problem. Wanting more than what you have is natural human instinct. That's why people like Mother Teresa are lauded as heroes because they've managed to overcome it. It's not something that's magically created by the governmental and economic systems we have today and unless you force them to play nice by passing laws (something that you need some form of government to do)[/QUOTE] Just to expand on my idea in my earlier reply, maybe if there were competing self-issued currencies people could just choose not to use the ones issued or managed by the overly greedy and use others instead in addition to a reputation or feedback system. Perhaps independent dispute resolution offices and watchdogs voluntarily run by consumers too. I'm not so sure wanting more than you have to an excess is a natural human instinct, wanting enough to survive maybe. The current system allows greed and corrupting to happen and laws do little to help as banks are often in bed with governments in more ways than one anyway meaning they can and do bend the rules to do whatever they want.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36149803]So gold and silver have intrinsic value because a) they are rare and b) they are used in cookware and nuclear warheads. Can anyone see why those reasons are terrible?[/QUOTE] Gold is also used a lot in electronics, aka one of the biggest industries on the planet.

I really suggest that people look into the negative impact inflation as it necessarily has a beneficial impact on the rich and connected, and quite a negative impact in the lower class, on fixed incomes, or who belong to fields with sticky wages. [QUOTE=Lonestriper;36141202]Things with intrinsic value: -Gold -Silver why on earth do they have an 'intrinsic' value? Because they are shiny?[/QUOTE] Typically people in favor of gold and silver as currency believe in subjective value, which eliminates possibility of inherent value. The argument is that when the government does not force a currency on a populace, people tend to use gold and silver as a currency. There are many historical examples of other commodities such as salt and tobacco being currencies, but most cultures tend to flock to gold and silver for some very practical reasons. Really, most people who are in favor of the gold and silver as money are really just saying that they are in favor of what the majority chooses as money. In the case of fiat money, this logically is not what people choose to use as money as they are forced to use the fiat money due to competing currencies being illegal.

[QUOTE=Pepin;36160983]Typically people in favor of gold and silver as currency believe in subjective value, which eliminates possibility of inherent value. The argument is that when the government does not force a currency on a populace, people tend to use gold and silver as a currency. There are many historical examples of other commodities such as salt and tobacco being currencies, but most cultures tend to flock to gold and silver for some very practical reasons. Really, most people who are in favor of the gold and silver as money are really just saying that they are in favor of what the majority chooses as money. In the case of fiat money, this logically is not what people choose to use as money as they are forced to use the fiat money due to competing currencies being illegal.[/QUOTE] Tying your currency to a finite resource, or even using that finite resource as currency, is a pretty terrible idea Pepin. Introducing competing currencies would also create unnecessary inefficiency in the exchange of goods and services.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36163919]Tying your currency to a finite resource, or even using that finite resource as currency, is a pretty terrible idea Pepin. Introducing competing currencies would also create unnecessary inefficiency in the exchange of goods and services.[/QUOTE] That is a completely fine claim to make, and I would never use any kind of force from using the money system you prefer. Would you return the favor and not use force on those who wish to use gold as money, even if it is an inferior choice?

[QUOTE=Pepin;36168164]That is a completely fine claim to make, and I would never use any kind of force from using the money system you prefer. Would you return the favor and not use force on those who wish to use gold as money, even if it is an inferior choice?[/QUOTE] No, because for what freedom you gain from being able to use gold as money is pointless when you consider how inconsequential it is.

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36176796]No, because for what freedom you gain from being able to use gold as money is pointless when you consider how inconsequential it is.[/QUOTE] I'm having a difficult understanding the reasoning behind this claim. What is the relationship between force and inconsequential acts, and also how the choice of exchange is inconsequential? More importantly, I am not going to pretend that this is an argument because you are willing to use force against me for an opinion. There is no reason to act as though there is a discussion going on when one party is willing to use force on the other if they don't agree.

It's pretty obvious gold has intrinsic value in the same way a hammer has intrinsic value, the value is derived from it's potential. Gold does not oxidise, it's rare however practical enough to obtain and in more recent times has found it's place in electronics.

[QUOTE=parket;36183551]It's pretty obvious gold has intrinsic value in the same way a hammer has intrinsic value, the value is derived from it's potential. Gold does not oxidise, it's rare however practical enough to obtain and in more recent times has found it's place in electronics.[/QUOTE] Could you elaborate on your use of the word intrinsic value? What is the methodology of determining intrinsic value?

[QUOTE=Lonestriper;36149803]So gold and silver have intrinsic value because a) they are rare and b) they are used in cookware and nuclear warheads. Can anyone see why those reasons are terrible?[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sure he meant intrinsic worth as in, we're always going to want them, regardless of civilization. You know, intrinsic economical value.

[QUOTE=Pepin;36184391]Could you elaborate on your use of the word intrinsic value? What is the methodology of determining intrinsic value?[/QUOTE] Well you can look at it two ways, economical or practical. Economically the intrinsic value of gold is it's MSP, you could also derive it has a value because of it's stability as a security. If we discard the external factors of a market and look at it practically, gold has an intrinsic value in modern times because of it's use in electronics - the properties that allow that being provided because of it's natural conductivity and resistance to oxidisation.

[QUOTE=Pepin;36182929]I'm having a difficult understanding the reasoning behind this claim. What is the relationship between force and inconsequential acts, and also how the choice of exchange is inconsequential?[/quote] We have an established method of exchange, fiat money, therefore why do we need to go back to a resource-bound currency? Fiat money isn't failing, it can fail, but it isn't failing. resource-bound currencies can fail as well, just in a different way. So why? So a bunch of goldbugs can live their fantasy of being captains of industry? Because it's freedom and freedom is objectively good? [quote]More importantly, I am not going to pretend that this is an argument because you are willing to use force against me for an opinion. There is no reason to act as though there is a discussion going on when one party is willing to use force on the other if they don't agree.[/QUOTE] Look Pepin, fundamentally we differ, both you and I know that. You are more eloquent while I'm intellectually lazy when it comes to arguments. I'm not going to pretend you are wrong in every argument and I hope you have the decency to engage with me without hiding behind an ideological barrier. Saying I have no argument because it requires the use of force in enforcing it is lazy. While it may make sense from a anarcho-capitalist (or whatever term you personally ascribe to yourself) position, realistically not everyone is against the use of force. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=MountainWatcher;36184615]I'm pretty sure he meant intrinsic worth as in, we're always going to want them, regardless of civilization. You know, intrinsic economical value.[/QUOTE] That is not an intrinsic value though, that is a subjective value perpetuated in many societies. [editline]4th June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=parket;36184728]Economically the intrinsic value of gold is it's MSP, you could also derive it has a value because of it's stability as a security. If we discard the external factors of a market and look at it practically, gold has an intrinsic value in modern times because of it's use in electronics - the properties that allow that being provided because of it's natural conductivity and resistance to oxidisation.[/QUOTE] But it is gold's practical value where it becomes nonviable in a practical sense, if you base a currency off gold the consumer electronics market would be abhorrently expensive.