• Pyro is more broken than ever after Jungle Inferno
    62 replies, posted
The Jungle Inferno update massively improved the visual consistency of the flamethrower, but Pyro is by far the most annoying thing in TF2 now. Besides what's in the videos, it is pretty hard to fight Pyro now since the new flame particles are very bright and opaque, you can't see the Pyro behind them. This youtuber popularizes exploits so watch with adblock if you want. [video=youtube;K12FnA0o_pY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K12FnA0o_pY[/video] More technical explanation of the new flamethrower mechanics edit: different youtuber so you can disable adblock for this video if you want [video=youtube;aIIgr_qt8mw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIIgr_qt8mw[/video] Biggest update wait in TF2 history and Pyro is more annoying than ever :/ edit2: This is also my 1000th post!
More pyro carnage [video=youtube;nTQqBjVr2F4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTQqBjVr2F4[/video] That is a script to look left and right really fast
all u need to play pryo like a pro [t]https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2017/09/01/logitech_g20_gaming_steering_wheel_set_for_sale_1504196052_01918088.jpg[/t]
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53107888]TBiggest update wait in TF2 history and Pyro is more annoying than ever :/[/QUOTE] It's kinda funny how it swings and roundabouts. Pyro has long been the single most underpowered class in the game (There's a reason why nobody ever rolled Pyro in 6s, and it's because he's trash.) Valve responded to this by nerfing the Pyro even further (by nerfing what is arguably his most powerful attribute, the puff n' sting.) Now on this pass, they made him ridiculously overpowered so that at close quarters combat, nobody could ever beat the Pyro, but he's still absolutely useless at range. Which I guess is the main point of the class and how it was intended to be since inception. But I guess that shows how fundamentally flawed the Pyro is as a class concept.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;53108072]It's kinda funny how it swings and roundabouts. Pyro has long been the single most underpowered class in the game (There's a reason why nobody ever rolled Pyro in 6s, and it's because he's trash.) Valve responded to this by nerfing the Pyro even further (by nerfing what is arguably his most powerful attribute, the puff n' sting.) Now on this pass, they made him ridiculously overpowered so that at close quarters combat, nobody could ever beat the Pyro, but he's still absolutely useless at range. Which I guess is the main point of the class and how it was intended to be since inception. But I guess that shows how fundamentally flawed the Pyro is as a class concept.[/QUOTE] Yeah, in TFC I think Scout and Pyro were the least useful (never played it really) and in TF2 they gave the Medic's combat abilities to the Scout, but Pyro wasn't much improved.
[QUOTE=J!NX;53108067]all u need to play pryo like a pro [t]https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2017/09/01/logitech_g20_gaming_steering_wheel_set_for_sale_1504196052_01918088.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] NIGHT OF FIRE
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;53108097]rip Spy[/QUOTE] Yeah Spy got big nerfs in the same update to the Dead Ringer (ammo boxes no longer fill cloak) and the Ambassador (past a certain distance the headshot crit damage goes down). Although afterburn was changed to last longer the more you're hit with flames, and all debuffs end quicker when cloaked, so a quick puff of flame only lights a cloaked Spy for like two seconds. (though I hear the bad hit detection for the flames makes it so you apply full afterburn length)
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53108107]Yeah Spy got big nerfs in the same update to the Dead Ringer (ammo boxes no longer fill cloak) and the Ambassador (past a certain distance the headshot crit damage goes down). Although afterburn was changed to last longer the more you're hit with flames, and all debuffs end quicker when cloaked, so a quick puff of flame only lights a cloaked Spy for like two seconds. (though I hear the bad hit detection for the flames makes it so you apply full afterburn length)[/QUOTE] Speaking of fun fire effects, all of the Pyro's flamethrowers [URL="https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356899606589603840/409840646048841729/unknown.png"]slow down a Medic's healing rate immensely if the patient is on fire[/URL]. :v: 25% doesn't sound like much, but remember that the Medic's healrate is slower if the patient took damage recently; both penalties stack and that's extremely nasty.
[QUOTE=Kalan Yamato;53108147]Speaking of fun fire effects, all of the Pyro's flamethrowers [URL="https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356899606589603840/409840646048841729/unknown.png"]slow down a Medic's healing rate immensely if the patient is on fire[/URL]. :v: 25% doesn't sound like much, but remember that the Medic's healrate is slower if the patient took damage recently; both penalties stack and that's extremely nasty.[/QUOTE] And like the first video says it was moved to afterburn and bumped down to 20%. What I'm wondering is if each tick of afterburn damage slows the Medic's healing, then puts on that further 20% slow effect.
Valve are awful at balancing TF2, who would've guessed?
[QUOTE=Kalan Yamato;53108147]Speaking of fun fire effects, all of the Pyro's flamethrowers [URL="https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/356899606589603840/409840646048841729/unknown.png"]slow down a Medic's healing rate immensely if the patient is on fire[/URL]. :v: 25% doesn't sound like much, but remember that the Medic's healrate is slower if the patient took damage recently; both penalties stack and that's extremely nasty.[/QUOTE] Its actually 20% and applied via afterburn instead of direct if you watched the first video, the wiki is wrong now. It also does not apply correctly to flamethrowers, they do ~80% for the first few seconds before dropping to 20% so the medic can't actually heal someone who is being directly burned by the pyro as it completely outruns the healing rate until they're no longer being directly burned and instead just being damaged by afterburn. Basically, its not working as described at all, and screams untested. And with this being valve, enjoy having this not being fixed or clarified upon for the next 6 months. Pyro is intentionally broken, its fucking amazing. :v:
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53108157]And like the first video says it was moved to afterburn and bumped down to 20%. What I'm wondering is if each tick of afterburn damage slows the Medic's healing, then puts on that further 20% slow effect.[/QUOTE] In my experience it just sets the slow healing rate instantaneously. There's no buildup or anything like that. The slow healing effect goes away once the patient is extinguished. [QUOTE=Reagy;53108160]Its actually 20% and applied via afterburn instead of direct if you watched the first video, the wiki is wrong now. It also does not apply correctly to flamethrowers, they do ~80% for the first few seconds before dropping to 20% so the medic can't actually heal someone who is being directly burned by the pyro as it completely outruns the healing rate until they're no longer being directly burned and instead just being damaged by afterburn.[/QUOTE] Thanks, I actually wasn't sure. This whole update was very weird.
[QUOTE=Destroyox;53108158]Valve are awful at balancing TF2, who would've guessed?[/QUOTE] Actually the latest batch of rebalances was pretty good and focused on complaints of the competitive side of TF2. This is more because of TF2's spaghetti code and the fact there's like 5 programmers on the TF team. Here's a video by TF2 technical expert sigsegv on the healing debuff from when it was from direct fire damage. [video=youtube;oYfx64j3BGc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYfx64j3BGc[/video]
my problem is the skilless damage over time mechanic of afterburn from some random pyro spamming flare after flare into corridors from a safe distance. its like huntsman 2.0 but im glad im not the only one to think that pyro is broken, this is just bad. it explains a lot honestly.
[QUOTE=TheBorealis;53108166]Actually the latest batch of rebalances was pretty good and focused on complaints of the competitive side of TF2. This is more because of TF2's spaghetti code and the fact there's like 5 programmers on the TF team.[/QUOTE] I very much agree that a lot of this is likely down to code defects, a lot of this looks completely unintentional but it should have all been found with just a few hours of testing, the afterburn for example is a really obvious one and the fact you can fart airblast? I can give them some slack on that, its not something you'd expect or even test for but the afterburn and melee damage reduction, you'd at least expect those to be tested to see if they're working as described which currently, they are not. 20% does not equal 14%, what is math.
-lmao snip wrong button-
[QUOTE=Reagy;53108173]I very much agree that a lot of this is likely down to code defects, a lot of this looks completely unintentional but it should have all been found with just a few hours of testing, the afterburn for example is a really obvious one and the fact you can fart airblast? I can give them some slack on that, its not something you'd expect or even test for but the afterburn and melee damage reduction, you'd at least expect those to be tested to see if they're working as described which currently, they are not. 20% does not equal 14%, what is math.[/QUOTE] I think the damage on the Hot Hand is an unintentional bug from it being a new type of melee weapon never before seen in TF2, it attacks twice for each attack.
The best thing is that Pyro isn't really more broken than before. Flame range used to be ping-dependent and the actual hitboxes were completely separate from the visuals, so you had to mentally filter the visuals out and learn to aim solely from hitsounds to be able to consistently hit anything. Playing against enemy Pyros you had absolutely no way of knowing when you were going to get hit. You could try and deduce from ping, but that didn't make it any less outraging when they hit you from 50 miles away despite visibly not touching you with flames at all (while conversely if you also played Pyro you'd be at an inherent disadvantage for having less range). Airblasting people behind you is not a new thing, nor is airblasting people upwards when aiming downwards (in fact you used to have less control prior to the update, since you could only airblast people at one fixed angle and one fixed velocity)(and I must say this is one of the things I like about the new airblast, pointing down is way more convenient and the angle still controls how high they fly). As for inconsistent stats, that's not exclusive to Pyro and has been rampant across the board since custom weapons were even a thing. It's not an excuse but hey, just saying it's not new. So yeah Pyro is still broken in a way, but the update was still an improvement. It's not like they fucked Pyro up more than he was. Here's an old video from the same guy as in OP. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh3gPQuVCWo[/media]
[QUOTE=Kalan Yamato;53108060]More pyro carnage [video=youtube;nTQqBjVr2F4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTQqBjVr2F4[/video] That is a script to look left and right really fast[/QUOTE] I could be wrong but I thought they blocked the "wait" command in Valve servers (it'll crash your game when used) or did they change that?
[QUOTE=Drury;53108200]The best thing is that Pyro isn't really more broken than before. Flame range used to be ping-dependent and the actual hitboxes were completely separate from the visuals, so you had to mentally filter the visuals out and learn to aim solely from hitsounds to be able to consistently hit anything. Playing against enemy Pyros you had absolutely no way of knowing when you were going to get hit. You could try and deduce from ping, but that didn't make it any less outraging when they hit you from 50 miles away despite visibly not touching you with flames at all (while conversely if you also played Pyro you'd be at an inherent disadvantage for having less range). Airblasting people behind you is not a new thing, nor is airblasting people upwards when aiming downwards (in fact you used to have less control prior to the update, since you could only airblast people at one fixed angle and one fixed velocity)(and I must say this is one of the things I like about the new airblast, pointing down is way more convenient and the angle still controls how high they fly). As for inconsistent stats, that's not exclusive to Pyro and has been rampant across the board since custom weapons were even a thing. It's not an excuse but hey, just saying it's not new. So yeah Pyro is still broken in a way, but the update was still an improvement. It's not like they fucked Pyro up more than he was. Here's an old video from the same guy as in OP. [/QUOTE] Yeah by broken I mean edit3: more in gameplay aspects, Pyro can kill any class but Heavy in two seconds with no aim or skill required, and has more mobility now due to the jetpack. edit: and the ridiculous fire flailing technique edit2: pyro is more consistent, but is just so annoying to fight edit4: pyro really is better than before, all they need to do is make the flailing ineffective to reward at least some target tracking, and fix the huge slow on Medic healing at the start of the attack, and make the flames a bit transparent, and it will be good
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;53108097]rip Spy[/QUOTE] Spy vs Pyro is super good right now. They nerfed afterburn duration to scale with how long you've been hit with flames, so if a Pyro manages to tag you with flames randomly you won't be on fire for super long - paired with the passive status effect reduction on cloak it'll be just 1 or 2 seconds if you're quick to retreat. At the same time, Pyro is also better at spychecking too since flames are more consistent now. The whole interaction between the two classes is now much more reasonable now for both parties. Definitely much better than ye olde stunlock crit-gimmick Pyro times where you lost just by the virtue of stepping into Pyro's effective range for 3 mosquito blinks. And you didn't even know what went wrong because you never got hit by any visible flames wtf And the old dead ringer was a fucking nightmare too... You could uncloak next to a box and get a full charge right away so you basically never died. bit rambling now tho
[QUOTE=J!NX;53108067]all u need to play pryo like a pro [t]https://media.karousell.com/media/photos/products/2017/09/01/logitech_g20_gaming_steering_wheel_set_for_sale_1504196052_01918088.jpg[/t][/QUOTE] PYYYROCAAAAR!!!! [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BfiOmo2jr6M[/media] Man, this brings back memories...
[QUOTE=Butthurter;53108110]crossngen where you at[/QUOTE] I've never had a say on the Pyro's broken flames discussion. And honestly I don't really care, pre and post Inferno, I'll never care that much about the pyro compared to the rest of the classes.
"5 programmers on the tf2 team" isnt a excuse for such lazyness in this update quality. the way valve has been handling tf2 is a joke to me, valve has all resources to make high quality content, but it simply doesnt want it.
[QUOTE=C4rnage;53108299]"5 programmers on the tf2 team" isnt a excuse for such lazyness in this update quality. the way valve has been handling tf2 is a joke to me, valve has all resources to make high quality content, but it simply doesnt want it.[/QUOTE] It's just that TF isn't popular internally, the people on the TF team have hundreds of hours in game, and at least one runs a community server. One is so good on Sniper they get hackusations. The sheer magnitude of the bugginess and spaghetti code probably turns employees away.
His damage when you shake the flamethrower is pretty crazy right now but I don't really mind that Pyro kills really fast up close in itself because that's what he's [I]supposed to do[/I] if you want to keep him out put up a sentry or get a competent heavy out there and he can't approach, there's no way. Even with the jetpack, if the Heavy can track the Pyro isn't winning.
[QUOTE=Bumbles;53108753]scout was insane in TFC because of Conc jumping. Hes was always picked in comp because it was mostly always CTF. He had a huge skill ceiling.[/QUOTE] I remember medics being used over scouts in TFC, because they also had concussive grenades, were the second fastest class in the game, had more armor and they could self-heal.
I'm starting to think Tf2 is unfixable by this point. Time to go, old man.
tbh i kinda like the idea of Pyro being the disruption class, impeding overheals and pushes. Separates them from other CQC powerhouses. I don't mind if they just get a damage nerf.
I feel like Pyro is balanced at a higher level due to the fact that he NEEDS to get in to do his heavy damage and that's easier said than done with classes like Soldier, Demoman, and Scout's mobility. Heavy and Engineer almost hard counter him played correctly, and Sniper shouldn't be getting close in the first place. He should bulldoze people if he manages to get in by surprising them or with team support, with the caveat that it won't always be easy for him to get in against highly mobile players or defenders. I'm not sure I mind his current damage being nerfed a [I]little, [/I]I just don't want him nerfed to the point where he's a stupid gimmick relying on airblast/puff n' sting/whatever because his shotgun is a more reliable damage option than his flamethrower. That was a terrible era for Pyro. People have complained about Pyro since the game released, but this is the first time he's been anything actually vaguely resembling relevant in a long time. I really hope they've learned their lesson this time, because when they repeatedly nerfed Pyro at the request of the majority it resulted in him becoming a joke gimmick class for the longest time.
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