Sherlock is Garbage, and Here's Why (OR: Why Steven Moffat Shouldn't Run Shows) [Hbomberguy] - General

So I actually found this video a few weeks ago. Only intended to watch the first 15 minutes of it, ended up watching the whole nearly-2-hours of it. I intended to post it here originally, but forgot about it until just recently. I did a search before-hand, and I am pretty certain no one's posted this here before. It's a big pill to swallow, but I personally think his pacing is pretty strong. Provided you have the time to spare, I don't think you'll much notice it pass - I certainly didn't. [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkoGBOs5ecM[/media] Here is a basic breakdown of what I took away as his most major points in the video. Spoiler tagged for those who want to watch the video and draw their own conclusions. Note that I haven't rewatched the video again since, so I may be misremembering or dropping a few points: [sp]1.) The show needlessly reinterprets and rearranges the classics, while missing the core elements of what made those classics so timeless (namely their episodic, non-story-arch nature). 2.) The show focuses too much on Sherlock Holmes as a character, and not the mysteries being solved. 3.) The show doesn't try to give the viewer a chance to prove their own deductive reasoning and feel smart. Instead, the show goes out of its way to make the viewer feel dumb by intentionally hiding information from them, information that is only ordained to Sherlock through some rarely-explained medium, so that he can go "A-ha!" and solve the mystery with information the viewer didn't have, so the show can then proceed to fellate Sherlock on his apparent genius. 4.) The show's 90-minute runtime either gave Steven Moffat justification, or made him feel it necessary, for unnecessarily filling the episodes with details that not only weren't needed, but actively bog down the episodes. 5.) Steven Moffat is a competent (and sometimes even genius) storywriter, but is a terrible showrunner, obsessed with needlessly inflating stories with drama and overly long overarching plot arcs. 6.) Moriarty, a character that only shows up in (I believe) two books in the entire Sherlock anthology - and one of those two books being where Moriarty kills Sherlock - is immediately set up to be the villain through all of the show's seasons, in the very first episode. 7.) Several of the characters, including Moriarty and Eurus, are written inconsistently and incoherently, while using the thin veil of "Because they're crazy!" to justify the sloppy writing. 8.) The show has active contempt for its fans, going so far as to make an entire episode mocking and ridiculing fan theories as to how Sherlock survived his supposed death - which the show never actually explains in the first place. 9.) That fucking boomerang.[/sp] I personally really enjoyed Sherlock, even if the latest season with [sp]Eurus[/sp] felt a bit out there even for the show. That being said, I can't really refute any of the points Hbomberguy makes in this video - even the more strongly subjective and opinion-oriented arguments he makes I find myself agreeing with. And yet, at the end of the day, I still enjoy Sherlock, and would personally like to see a Season 5. Maybe Sherlock is objectively, factually, a bad show. Maybe not. Either way, I still enjoy it for what it is. What are your thoughts on all of this, everyone? Be it the video itself, the points brought up, or your thoughts on the show itself?

Moffat should've stuck to showrunning Doctor Who alone. He's brilliant there - even with Sherlock to manage on the side - but in some instances like Series 7 it's clear that Sherlock's additional workload was too much for him. That said, does Sherlock really deserve the punishment of having Mark Gatiss as its lone showrunner?

Sherlock season 1-3 was really enjoyable for me, i loved it and thought some of the episodes were pretty smart. Season 4 however was a giant piece of shit, my and my girlfriend couldn't really get around what was going on and they strayed so far from the original charm of the series. I'm not sure i even want a season 5 and i am also not sure if i can wait another 5 years for it

[IMG]https://i.redd.it/41j63kp60s8y.jpg[/img]

[QUOTE=Reds;52380801][IMG]https://i.redd.it/41j63kp60s8y.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] Having watched a couple episodes of sherlock this is 100% accurate And don't forget if he has to explain anything, he does it in this smug tone like you're mentally retarded for not noticing

[QUOTE=kaze4159;52380890]Having watched a couple episodes of sherlock this is 100% accurate And don't forget if he has to explain anything, he does it in this smug tone like you're mentally retarded for not noticing[/QUOTE] This also applies to movie villains - the Joker in the Dark Knight for example. Sometimes a "super smart" villain is in fact just extremely convenient writing.

I still maintain that S1 and S2 of Sherlock were very good. Sure they make leaps in logic, but they're still fun. S3/S4 are garbage though. Like, genuine F grade tv.

Moffat has arc a addiction, he loves to start another fucking story arc just to never end it or to quickly end the arc in a 3 minute scene

[QUOTE=Captain Chalky;52380975]Sherlock is awful and so is Doctor Who, except even more so. Steven Moffat has single-handedly ruined that show for me, perhaps for ever. Like really, no idea if I can even go back to it once Moffat finally fucking leaves the show alone. I'm not a Brit, so I don't have some inherent nostalgia for it but the 2005 reboot was genuinely good. There were plenty of good episodes (many which were written by Moffat, what a twist!) But after series 5, it just started to go downhill. I somehow slogged through it all the way to Capaldi's run but I just couldn't handle it anymore. Almost every second of the show is spent circle-jerking how amazing and unique and important the Doctor is. And when that doesn't happen, we instead get some complete nonsense story with pacing reminiscent of the Room by Tommy Wiseau! And Sherlock? It's the lite version of Doctor Who. It falls in the same holes in terms of storytelling and fails to deliver anything meaningful. Not nearly as bad, but frankly, infinity times 0.5 is still infinity. Or at least, very close. Fuck Moffat. Fuck him with a rake. Thank god for Agatha Christie's Poirot.[/QUOTE] Just so you know the latest series has been pretty good - my friend who refused to watch the last sherlock episode or the last few series of doctor who because he was to annoyed by them is back to loving them, even despite the fact we were also watching Tennant/Rose that day.

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52380739] Maybe Sherlock is objectively, factually, a bad show. Maybe not. Either way, I still enjoy it for what it is.[/QUOTE] There is nothing wrong with liking bad shit. I think the Flash tv adaptation may be the worst piece of shit to ever be broadcast on television, but I love it. The problem comes when people try to defend trash to defend their own ego.

[QUOTE=NeonpieDFTBA;52381032]Just so you know the latest series has been pretty good - my friend who refused to watch the last sherlock episode or the last few series of doctor who because he was to annoyed by them is back to loving them, even despite the fact we were also watching Tennant/Rose that day.[/QUOTE] Yeah, if you haven't watched it in a while, go watch [i]Heaven Sent[/i] One of the best Doctor Who episodes, if not [i]the[/i] best.

[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;52381113]Yeah, if you haven't watched it in a while, go watch [i]Heaven Sent[/i] One of the best Doctor Who episodes, if not [i]the[/i] best.[/QUOTE] Guess who wrote it too? :smug: Steven Moffat. And the entirety of Series 9 recieved critical acclaim. To all the RTD fans out there though, feel free to put feels over reals and pretend it was objectively bad because you didn't like it.

[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;52381113]Yeah, if you haven't watched it in a while, go watch [i]Heaven Sent[/i] One of the best Doctor Who episodes, if not [i]the[/i] best.[/QUOTE] Shame however it is undone by Hell Bent though.

With Doctor Who it felt like Moffat decided every episode had to be series finale tier plot twists and at that point it just becomes a mess of dumb writing where every episode is "oh this will change the way you look at the doctor!" bullshit.

[QUOTE=CanUBe;52381122]Guess who wrote it too? :smug: Steven Moffat. And the entirety of Series 9 recieved critical acclaim. To all the RTD fans out there though, feel free to put feels over reals and pretend it was objectively bad because you didn't like it.[/QUOTE] Nobody's really calling Moffat a bad writer, though The whole point of the video is that he isn't really a bad writer, he just handles being given carte blanche incredibly badly When he has to work within the confines of a single, self-contained story, he can produce genuinely amazing work. He's good at the small scale stuff When he's left to be a showrunner, though, well [QUOTE=Reds;52380801][IMG]https://i.redd.it/41j63kp60s8y.jpg[/img][/QUOTE] You get what this post describes and what the video describes

[QUOTE=Gmod4ever;52380739][sp]8.) The show has active contempt for its fans, going so far as to make an entire episode mocking and ridiculing fan theories as to how Sherlock survived his supposed death - which the show never actually explains in the first place.[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp](except Sherlock himself explains it in the same fucking episode)[/sp]

[QUOTE=Chrisordie;52381136]Shame however it is undone by Hell Bent though.[/QUOTE] Hell Bent recieved critical acclaim too :smug:

I agree pretty wholeheartedly with the points made about Moffat's failings as a series writer, especially after it talk about the early version of the pilot episode. But i really don't believe this video needed to be two hours long. The script really could have used some heavy editing and been much more directed. In this form it just ends up rather difficult to discuss with other people.

Doctor Who went down the same path, and it you pay attention at [I]all[/I] you can start to see the strings of the plot right away. It doesn't help that things are completely repetitive, where every season Moffat pops up, gives the EXACT SAME SPIEL and then nothing related to that happens the entire season.

[QUOTE=Paramud;52381289][sp](except Sherlock himself explains it in the same fucking episode)[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]except the ending of the episode implies that the explanation could've been made up and that it's a fifty/fifty tossup whether sherlock was even actually there in the room explaining it to the crazy person in the first place[/sp]

[QUOTE=CanUBe;52380782]Moffat should've stuck to showrunning Doctor Who alone. He's brilliant there [/QUOTE] No, he turned it into the "Sassy Independant Female Companion who is the Main Focus for no Reason and Who Technically Isn't Independent Because They Rely on The Doctor in a Weird Flirty Yet Non-Romantic Relationship Show Sometimes Featuring the Doctor" with like, 3 different female companions. I haven't seen the last few seasons but I know it's gonna be the same old shit because Moffat. [editline]20th June 2017[/editline] Forgot to add "Love saves the day everyday all days" for every ending/"big" season finale. [editline]20th June 2017[/editline] And the whole "The Doctor will reveal his name" bs which never fucking happened. Or almost everything about Riversong. Best part of Doctor Who in the last 5 years was someone dragging an old, half senile Tom Baker out of a retirement home for an hour or two so they could film that bit at the end of the 50th anniversary.

[QUOTE=evlbzltyr;52381409][sp]except the ending of the episode implies that the explanation could've been made up and that it's a fifty/fifty tossup whether sherlock was even actually there in the room explaining it to the crazy person in the first place[/sp][/QUOTE] [sp]There's absolutely nothing that implies that it was a hallucination and if you're going to deny an explanation from fucking Sherlock himself on how he faked his death then there's actually no way to explain it to you. You're creating a plot hole and refusing to let the story close it.[/sp] [editline]oh hamburgers[/editline] [sp]Also if you're going to include the possibility that Anderson hallucinated Sherlock because he's crazy I'm going to put forward that any problems he had with Sherlock's explanation could be thrown out because of his mental issues as well[/sp]

[QUOTE=CanUBe;52381296]Hell Bent recieved critical acclaim too :smug:[/QUOTE] So you are using someone else's subjective opinion to validate your own subjective opinion?

I enjoy the show, even though I've read the originals and the show shits on them [mostly I enjoy it because of the acting from Benedict and the banter between Sherlock and Watson]

[QUOTE=Whomobile;52381418]No, he turned it into the "Sassy Independant Female Companion who is the Main Focus for no Reason and Who Technically Isn't Independent Because They Rely on The Doctor in a Weird Flirty Yet Non-Romantic Relationship Show Sometimes Featuring the Doctor" with like, 3 different female companions.[/QUOTE] The companion is meant to be the focus of the show because they are the audience surrogate. We aren't meant to relate to the Doctor at all - only look up to him - and for this reason it would alienate the audience to have him as the true main character. Of course, there is an exception to be made for the Tenth Doctor (where it was very much [B]The Doctor: The Show[/B]) but that's because RTD fundamentally misunderstood the Doctor's character and wrote 10 to be far too human. For many people, 10 is "their doctor" so they get the idea that the Doctor should be some relatable figure which the show is centred around, but this was not the case for the Classic series or (thankfully) for any series since RTD left. It is naive to assume that you would have anything in common with an 1000-year-old alien anyway. And the "flirty yet non-romantic relationship" is a hundred times better than what we recieved under RTD. I would take Moffat's Doctor-companion dynamic over RTD's any day. Again, it is completely out of character for the Doctor to fall in love with a human being. And no, just because they did it in the movie before RTD did it doesn't make it okay. It was shit then and it was even more shit when he did it because of Rose's character. Like the Tenth Doctor, Rose is highly unlikeable. Consider how she treats Mickey, or her whole personality during Series 2. Of course, both 10 and Rose were petty and arrogant so you could almost say they were made for each other if it weren't for the huge age/species gap. Seriously, Rose is a 19-year-old chav girl from a London estate. With their difference in experience, wisdom, etc. it's almost pedophilic for the Doctor to get involved with her in the way he did. And there's more. Even if you ignore the absurdity of the romance itself, it dragged on for far too long. Why did 10 need to spend the entirety of Series 3 grieving over her (much-needed) death? He's spent much less time grieving other things much more important. And of course, the Doctor's Time War guilt was brought up too whenever the writer needed something dramatic and "affecting". While I agree with RTD's decision to make the Doctor the Last of the Time Lords, it got old to hear very quickly. Moffat, of course, had the sense to turn it down.

I liked the first season. After that, it just became increasingly full of fan service until this season which was some of the dumbest TV I've ever seen in my life. [img]https://puu.sh/tpt5t.png[/img]

[QUOTE=Dirty_Ape;52381952]I liked the first season. After that, it just became increasingly full of fan service until this season which was some of the dumbest TV I've ever seen in my life. [img]https://puu.sh/tpt5t.png[/img][/QUOTE] Dead image for me

[QUOTE=CanUBe;52381912]The companion is meant to be the focus of the show because they are the audience surrogate. We aren't meant to relate to the Doctor at all - only look up to him - and for this reason it would alienate the audience to have him as the true main character. Of course, there is an exception to be made for the Tenth Doctor (where it was very much [B]The Doctor: The Show[/B]) but that's because RTD fundamentally misunderstood the Doctor's character and wrote 10 to be far too human. For many people, 10 is "their doctor" so they get the idea that the Doctor should be some relatable figure which the show is centred around, but this was not the case for the Classic series or (thankfully) for any series since RTD left. It is naive to assume that you would have anything in common with an 1000-year-old alien anyway. And the "flirty yet non-romantic relationship" is a hundred times better than what we recieved under RTD. I would take Moffat's Doctor-companion dynamic over RTD's any day. Again, it is completely out of character for the Doctor to fall in love with a human being. And no, just because they did it in the movie before RTD did it doesn't make it okay. It was shit then and it was even more shit when he did it because of Rose's character. Like the Tenth Doctor, Rose is highly unlikeable. Consider how she treats Mickey, or her whole personality during Series 2. Of course, both 10 and Rose were petty and arrogant so you could almost say they were made for each other if it weren't for the huge age/species gap. Seriously, Rose is a 19-year-old chav girl from a London estate. With their difference in experience, wisdom, etc. it's almost pedophilic for the Doctor to get involved with her in the way he did. And there's more. Even if you ignore the absurdity of the romance itself, it dragged on for far too long. Why did 10 need to spend the entirety of Series 3 grieving over her (much-needed) death? He's spent much less time grieving other things much more important. And of course, the Doctor's Time War guilt was brought up too whenever the writer needed something dramatic and "affecting". While I agree with RTD's decision to make the Doctor the Last of the Time Lords, it got old to hear very quickly. Moffat, of course, had the sense to turn it down.[/QUOTE] I sometimes feel I'm the only one that didn't like Rose all that much, she got to be annoying for me. I will still always like 10 though, he had some great episodes, but as a Doctor, 9 is probably my favorite.

[QUOTE=Trekintosh;52381969]Dead image for me[/QUOTE] Adblock and Adblock Plus block puu.sh links and images.

[QUOTE=Zeos;52381373]Doctor Who went down the same path, and it you pay attention at [I]all[/I] you can start to see the strings of the plot right away. It doesn't help that things are completely repetitive, where every season Moffat pops up, gives the EXACT SAME SPIEL and then nothing related to that happens the entire season.[/QUOTE] The constant hero worship of the Doctor is really grating too. In the first episode of the Doctor Who reboot, with Russell T. Davies as showrunner, the Doctor talks down the bad guy by citing galactic law and making it clear that if it continued to violate that law he would be forced to destroy it. In the first episode with Moffat as the showrunner he defeats the bad guy by saying "I'm the Doctor." They're both episodes where the Doctor talks about what he's done in the past to threaten the bad guy, but in Moffat's version it isn't what the Doctor has done in the past that finally scares the alien away, it's the fact that it's the Doctor at all that does it. He went from some dude who was knowledgable about the world and quick witted, to a space wizard with a magic wand that can solve all of his problems provided he can't scare them off by mentioning who he is and giving a smarmy or angry face. I seriously hope whoever takes over after Moffat stops the constant hero worship and the "Oh but he has a secret dark past that we'll never get around to actually exploring but will remind you of every fucking episode."