Emma Watson always sounds like she's about to cry.
I'm happy for feminist (actual feminists) and I support their cause. I don't judge people based on gender or race, and I respect people with a level of respect that they give in return or deserve. When bad feminists go around disrespecting men because they are men, I don't respect them and they are ruining the image of feminists and it's awful for actual feminists. This is what everyone else is thinking but people don't really do anything about it. I don't agree that believing in equal rights for women makes me a feminist though.
Her points are good, except that if someone doesn't even like the word feminist how can you expect them to champion the cause of women's rights?
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;46045463]Emma Watson always sounds like she's about to cry.
I'm happy for feminist (actual feminists) and I support their cause. I don't judge people based on gender or race, and I respect people with a level of respect that they give in return or deserve. When bad feminists go around disrespecting men because they are men, I don't respect them and they are ruining the image of feminists and it's awful for actual feminists. This is what everyone else is thinking but people don't really do anything about it. I don't agree that believing in equal rights for women makes me a feminist though.[/QUOTE]
By definition anyone who believes in equal rights for women is indeed a feminist. I wouldn't call myself a feminist but I guess I am. I guess the term just reminds me of people who I don't necessarily like as people.
Also how often does it really happen that feminists disrespect men just for being men? Honestly this whole persecution complex has is kind of weird, and I don't think it has much base in reality. There are videos of people who poorly represent any group, but on the whole I think it's pretty rare at least compared to how often people on this board mention man hating
[QUOTE=Lick;46045518]
Also how often does it really happen that feminists disrespect men just for being men? [/QUOTE]
Quite often actually. How many times have you heard "we need to teach men not to rape"? I don't need to be taught that and no one does. Anyone who is able to violate a woman who is clearly under the influence, crying or screaming won't change their mind because someone told them "rape is bad" one day.
[QUOTE=Korova;46045533]Quite often actually. How many times have you heard "we need to teach men not to rape"? I don't need to be taught that and no one does. Anyone who is able to violate a woman who is clearly under the influence, crying or screaming won't change their mind because someone told them "rape is bad" one day.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say that. Sure, it's not as simple as telling them "dont rape pls" in kindergarten but it's definitely something that we should address in schools like we do alcohol, sex & drug abuse.
The idea behind "teach men not to rape" is that there are plenty of people who see nothing wrong with taking advantage of a drunk person, or that consent doesn't matter, and they weren't necessarily born that way. When you raise a person and teach them that that's okay, they're going to believe it, and sadly a lot of people do, and that has to be changed.
A lot of people also don't actually comprehend what is and isn't rape. I mean, 20% of Australians believe that drunk women are partly responsible for rape. 1 in 6 believe that if a woman says no, she actually means yes (when being asked for sex). Clearly people - in Australia at least - do need to have what rape is explained to them.
[URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-17/one-in-five-believe-drunk-women-partly-responsible-for-rape/5749088"]
Source for numbers.[/URL]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;46045600]The idea behind "teach men not to rape" is that there are plenty of people who see nothing wrong with taking advantage of a drunk person, or that consent doesn't matter, and they weren't necessarily born that way. When you raise a person and teach them that that's okay, they're going to believe it, and sadly a lot of people do, and that has to be changed.[/QUOTE]
I just really doubt that anyone who lacks empathy like that would stop if they were told it's wrong. You have to be a fucking moron to think otherwise.
Amazing speech, really.
As much as she states "Who's this random Harry Potter girl?", I only see how much she's fighting for the cause, as well as bring a face on feminism that we can respect rather than be a discrase.
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;46045463]Emma Watson always sounds like she's about to cry.
I'm happy for feminist (actual feminists) and I support their cause. I don't judge people based on gender or race, and I respect people with a level of respect that they give in return or deserve. When bad feminists go around disrespecting men because they are men, I don't respect them and they are ruining the image of feminists and it's awful for actual feminists. This is what everyone else is thinking but people don't really do anything about it. I don't agree that believing in equal rights for women makes me a feminist though.[/QUOTE]
I think the speech she made touches on what you've mentioned here. Why don't you think it makes you a feminist? You may not be an feminist activist, going out to fight for equality, but presumably you'd call out gender inequality where you see it. That, along with the beliefs that you hold should make you a feminist and you shouldn't be afraid to identify that way.
Quote: "For the record, feminism by definition is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunities. It is the theory of the political, economic and social equality of the sexes."
By Hermio- Emma Watson's definition you're a feminist. By google's "define:" command, you are a feminist.
So why don't you agree that believing in equal rights makes you a feminist?
[editline]22nd September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=Korova;46045703]I just really doubt that anyone who lacks empathy like that would stop if they were told it's wrong. You have to be a fucking moron to think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
You have to get in early to educate before they get into the mindset of thinking it's ok.
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;46045463]Emma Watson always sounds like she's about to cry.
I'm happy for feminist (actual feminists) and I support their cause. I don't judge people based on gender or race, and I respect people with a level of respect that they give in return or deserve. When bad feminists go around disrespecting men because they are men, I don't respect them and they are ruining the image of feminists and it's awful for actual feminists. This is what everyone else is thinking but people don't really do anything about it. I don't agree that believing in equal rights for women makes me a feminist though.[/QUOTE]
Gender equality has its limits. Of course women and men should have the same rights socially and economically BUT it's completely false to think we should make men and women the same because simply men and women will never be the same. We will think different and act different because it's scientifically proven that our brains work different. So instead of seeing us as equals we should not only strenghten our individual abilities but also learn from the other gender.
[QUOTE=TedStriker;46045746]Gender equality has its limits. Of course women and men should have the same rights socially and economically BUT it's completely false to think we should make men and women the same because simply men and women will never be the same. We will think different and act different because it's scientifically proven that our brains work different. So instead of seeing us as equals we should not only strenghten our individual abilities but also learn from the other gender.[/QUOTE]
Or you could not bother to point out a "difference" so symantic as that. On the whole, men and women are equally capable. That is the point. It's so complimentary that the fact that we aren't the same isn't relevant, you can be different and equal and that's the whole idea.
I get what you're saying but you're confusing being different with being equal.
Mh, no I'm not. The sooner we accept the fact that men and women are different regarding their brains and their instincts which control us the sooner we can work with that difference. And you're not right: Men and women ARE unequally capable and it's fine!! Women do some things better than men, men do some things better than women. Tthis way of balance and equality is perfectly fine and we should stop forcing.
[QUOTE=TedStriker;46045833]Mh, no I'm not. The sooner we accept the fact that men and women are different regarding their brains and their instincts which control us the sooner we can work with that difference. And you're not right: Men and women ARE unequally capable and it's fine!! Women do some things better than men, men do some things better than women. Tthis way of balance and equality is perfectly fine and we should stop forcing.[/QUOTE]
The thing is these instinctual differences and brain structure differences are still observed from time to time in the "wrong" gender. So a skill that women are identified at being good at can be held by a man and vice versa. Then "playing" to the average strength of the gender results in some people missing out.
So I call it symantic because you may as well say to everyone, male and female, "do what you enjoy and are good at" rather than say "here are the standard differences between you so you should focus on those things" because people will do better with the former and those differences you identify will naturally be provided for.
It needs a view of equality for it to work though and messing about with this "not equal but it's ok" just feeds to people who are sexist and misogynistic who go "yeah women should all do the ironing and make me sandwhichs", and also it's not necessary.
I feel like you can only really say men and women are unequally capable if on the whole one gender is inferior and we can't say that. Men and women have different strengths but those strengths are no more or less valuable than the other and they are therefore equal.
You say men and women are different regarding their brains and their instincts and I say no, people who have brain x are different from people who have brain y, and people who have instinct q and people who have instinct r are also different.
The fact that one gender happens to be majority of one brain and instinct and others of the other is irrelevant, because sometimes it crosses over. The gender doesn't make the difference, the brain structure does.
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;46045463]Emma Watson always sounds like she's about to cry.[/QUOTE]
I think she was probably a bit nervous.
Finally someone fighting for equality.
This is a rare sight and inequality is totally an ignored issue in modern society.
[QUOTE=gerbe1;46045658]A lot of people also don't actually comprehend what is and isn't rape. I mean, 20% of Australians believe that drunk women are partly responsible for rape. 1 in 6 believe that if a woman says no, she actually means yes (when being asked for sex). Clearly people - in Australia at least - do need to have what rape is explained to them.
[URL="http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-09-17/one-in-five-believe-drunk-women-partly-responsible-for-rape/5749088"]
Source for numbers.[/URL][/QUOTE]
Tbh honest - drunk sex in a lot of countries does not count as rape if your ability to consent was merely impaired. Imagine these situations.
a) A person is somewhat drunk, doesn't give consent but in their state is unable to prevent it from happening - clearly rape
b) Person is blackout drunk, as a result is unable to give consent - clearly rape
c) Person is somewhat drunk, their ability to give consent is impaired, but consent is given - in some countries this counts as rape. In others it doesn't count as a crime at all, particularly if both sides had impaired consent giving faculties.
Overall saying clearly what is and what isn't rape isn't as simple. Particularly that different countries have different views of it and often have other criminal deeds to qualify them.
A good example is statutory rape for instance. While criminal across the western world, there are many countries that do not call it rape. But instead sex with a minor. But you can have a combination of this crime and rape.
Essentially, the definition of rape, that I do personally prefer is sexual intercourse, based on an action that robs the other person of an ability to consent either trough force or other means - giving someone a date rape drug counts as other means.(that's the local criminal one here as well)
That essentially guarantees you the fact, that rape can remain one of the most heinous sexual crimes and at the same time create multiple other crimes that better reflect situations at hand. Sexual pressure being an example.
I guess I just find that making the definition of rape too broad robs it of it's "super fucking bad crime" status.
To use a very bad example (as the one has intent and the other negligence only generally, but it's the first one that pops into my mind from english terminology) compare murder and manslaughter. Both are crimes, but one is and should be considered far more heinous than the other.
[QUOTE=TedStriker;46045833]Mh, no I'm not. The sooner we accept the fact that men and women are different regarding their brains and their instincts which control us the sooner we can work with that difference. And you're not right: Men and women ARE unequally capable and it's fine!! Women do some things better than men, men do some things better than women. Tthis way of balance and equality is perfectly fine and we should stop forcing.[/QUOTE]
Very rarely do people try to argue that men and women are exactly the same. Both genders have slightly different strengths and needs, but that doesn't preclude them from being treated with equality.
Rape is essentially psychological murder as the trauma and emotional damage lasts a lifetime.
Then again it is the feminist side of the political spectrum that advocates shorter prison sentences for rapists and wants to disarm women.
You can't explain to a predator that it is wrong to rape, kill or steal. You can only deter it or kill it.
[editline]22nd September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=asteroidrules;46045600]The idea behind "teach men not to rape" is that there are plenty of people who see nothing wrong with taking advantage of a drunk person, or that consent doesn't matter, and they weren't necessarily born that way. When you raise a person and teach them that that's okay, they're going to believe it, and sadly a lot of people do, and that has to be changed.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe for a second a substantial degree of parents actually tell their sons that it is okay to rape women, if it does then I don't think we live on the same planet or I live in happy fairy town. Not saying it isn't true as I know in Latin American countries like Venezuela it is the cultural paradigm for fathers to bring their sons to a brothel when they are 16.
As far as the culture goes you only need to watch the latest nihilistic pop music to show the objectification of women as sex toys. I'm not saying it's a justification, as people should be able to respect the liberty of women no matter their degradation in media and culture.
[QUOTE=Pat.Lithium;46045463]I don't agree that believing in equal rights for women makes me a feminist though.[/QUOTE]
Believing in the ideals of a movement labels you as a part of it.
It's like: "I don't agree that believing in german superiority and wanting to exterminate the jewish race makes me a nazi."
[QUOTE=Soda;46049050]Believing in the ideals of a movement labels you as a part of it.
It's like: "I don't agree that believing in german superiority and wanting to exterminate the jewish race makes me a nazi."[/QUOTE]
Not it doesn't.
I.e an atheist is not a christian for believing Matthew 7:12 do unto others as you would have others do to you. You only share that specific value.
Just as black supremacists and antisemitic's are not National Socialist Labour Party members though they share the same values.
[QUOTE=gerbe1;46045883]The thing is these instinctual differences and brain structure differences are still observed from time to time in the "wrong" gender. So a skill that women are identified at being good at can be held by a man and vice versa. Then "playing" to the average strength of the gender results in some people missing out.
[/QUOTE]
Well said, well said, well said. I feel like a big problem in today's society is our strict following of gender roles. If for example, a man wants to work in childcare or a woman wants to work as a truck driver, there will undoubtedly be eyebrows raised. One of the end goals of modern feminism is to eliminate gender-related biases such as these.
In my opinion, feminism will do just as much good for men as it will do for women. Sexism isn't "us vs. them" it's a matter of cooperation and agreeing to see each other on a level playing field.
[QUOTE=cheetahben;46049189]Well said, well said, well said. I feel like a big problem in today's society is our strict following of gender roles. If for example, a man wants to work in childcare or a woman wants to work as a truck driver, there will undoubtedly be eyebrows raised. One of the end goals of modern feminism is to eliminate gender-related biases such as these.
In my opinion, feminism will do just as much good for men as it will do for women. Sexism isn't "us vs. them" it's a matter of cooperation and agreeing to see each other on a level playing field.[/QUOTE]
Norway has already accomplished this, but there needs to be a acknowledgement that there will never be complete 50/50 gender parity within occupations as the gender statistically always choose stereotypical occupations and fields of study when given the freedom to completely choose what they want. Even with Laws that give preferential enrollment/employment to underrepresented genders there is still generally 20/80 percent gender imbalance.
Men and Women are equal, but statistically speaking are still stereotypical despite complete elimination of gender roles. Nobody bats an eye seeing Scandinavian men walking down the street with a stroller or seeing Scandinavian engineer women fixing an F-16 or working on an oil rig.
I appreciate the sentiment Emma, but I still can't help but think;
If the term 'feminism' is entirely descriptive of the struggle against gender inequality, then the term 'black rights' is (ought to be) entirely descriptive of the struggle against racial inequality.
Either words matter or they do not, can't have it both ways.
[QUOTE=Korova;46045703]I just really doubt that anyone who lacks empathy like that would stop if they were told it's wrong. You have to be a fucking moron to think otherwise.[/QUOTE]
Its not about stopping the dickheads. Its about informing the people who just don't know so they don't make the mistake.
[editline]22nd September 2014[/editline]
[QUOTE=cheetahben;46049189]Well said, well said, well said. I feel like a big problem in today's society is our strict following of gender roles. If for example, a man wants to work in childcare or a woman wants to work as a truck driver, there will undoubtedly be eyebrows raised. One of the end goals of modern feminism is to eliminate gender-related biases such as these.
In my opinion, feminism will do just as much good for men as it will do for women. Sexism isn't "us vs. them" it's a matter of cooperation and agreeing to see each other on a level playing field.[/QUOTE]
I think one of the bigger hurdles is that we need to start weighing things more carefully. This isn't the 1930s or 1970's where you could use feminism like a sledgehammer. We now have very real and growing problem that young boys and men in growing frequency over their younger female counterparts such as educational public policy that emphasizes young girls early on over boys, over diagnosing prescribing of medications that we don't fully understand, the drop out rate in college and high school, and the lack of emotional and physical abuse support for men.
Women still face large issues as well but you can't make blanket statements anymore because we're now hitting a point in the gender policy debate where it needs to be a finely sharpened scapel because if you go in heavy handed you're only going to do something to the detriment of another.
[QUOTE=Zenreon117;46049467]I appreciate the sentiment Emma, but I still can't help but think;
If the term 'feminism' is entirely descriptive of the struggle against gender inequality, then the term 'black rights' is (ought to be) entirely descriptive of the struggle against racial inequality.
Either words matter or they do not, can't have it both ways.[/QUOTE]
The difference is there's more then two races in the world.
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;46052068]The difference is there's more then two races in the world.[/QUOTE]
Well I could be all liberal and bring in non-traditional genders, thus making your point not apply.
[editline]22nd September 2014[/editline]
Besides, did Emma not argue that Gender is a spectrum, not a boolean value?
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