Solutions to Fix the Gaming Industry (Super Bunnyhop)
41 replies, posted
[video]https://youtu.be/KJ3qv6fc6ts[/video]
What do you people think of George's videos over the last year?
I considered this guy my favorite YouTuber, but lately his work just doesn't do it for me.
It feels like he's always had his sort of obscure interests, and lately he went straight to them. Be it his overall interest in Japanese culture, or weird indies. He also sort of pulled a Jim Sterling and started forcing gags he enjoys (like the noodles thing).
I guess that should be better for his fans, but I always liked how he had a unique view on super not unique video game topics and franchises.
I wonder what the actual conversion rate would be if you sold your blood plasma and then bought microtransactions with the money.
[QUOTE=halfer;52934400]What do you people think of George's videos over the last year?
I considered this guy my favorite YouTuber, but lately his work just doesn't do it for me.
It feels like he's always had his sort of obscure interests, and lately he went straight to them. Be it his overall interest in Japanese culture, or weird indies. He also sort of pulled a Jim Sterling and started forcing gags he enjoys (like the noodles thing).
I guess that should be better for his fans, but I always liked how he had a unique view on super not unique video game topics and franchises.[/QUOTE]
I feel like he's gotten super cynical since I first started watching his stuff in mid 2015, honestly. It's a little depressing sometimes.
[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;52934929]I feel like he's gotten super cynical since I first started watching his stuff in mid 2015, honestly. It's a little depressing sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Considering what happened with EA and Battlefront II recently, it's hard not to be cynical about games.
[QUOTE=megafat;52934963]Considering what happened with EA and Battlefront II recently, it's hard not to be cynical about games.[/QUOTE]
Disagree entirely. This is a year with a ton of incredibly fun and well put together releases from both AAA and the indie scene. Battlefront is the most offensive release and it's got craazy bad press on all sides, which is super inspiring. I'd say it's almost easier to be positive about gaming right now than it has been in the past few years!
[QUOTE=halfer;52934400]
I guess that should be better for his fans, but I always liked how he had a unique view on super not unique video game topics and franchises.[/QUOTE]
He still has plenty of videos like that though. The video before this one was about the last wolfenstein game, and I bet you don't get to hear a lot of the weird points he makes about it anywhere else
[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;52934929]I feel like he's gotten super cynical since I first started watching his stuff in mid 2015, honestly. It's a little depressing sometimes.[/QUOTE]
The industry and world around us has gone to shit in many ways too.
Maybe his cynicism is a reflection of the rather bitter reality we have in front of us?
[editline]30th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Midna;52934972]Disagree entirely. This is a year with a ton of incredibly fun and well put together releases from both AAA and the indie scene. Battlefront is the most offensive release and it's got craazy bad press on all sides, which is super inspiring. I'd say it's almost easier to be positive about gaming right now than it has been in the past few years![/QUOTE]
I don't think gaming is in the garbage right now but things aren't looking up in the contexts that surround video gaming. The internet, the economy, steams doubled it's number of titles this year alone(most of which are shit) and a variety of other larger issues than just "the games we play are fun"
there's only two ways to fix gaming. you either crash it completely and make sure it doesn't get up or get governments to outlaw it
not a single good thing has come out of the industry in at least a decade and it actively preys on children and the weak. you cannot support this medium in any fucking ethical manner because companies without exception abuse their customers or their own employees. and don't think indies are innocent in this because they do the same fucking things too
[QUOTE=Midna;52934972]Disagree entirely. This is a year with a ton of incredibly fun and well put together releases from both AAA and the indie scene. Battlefront is the most offensive release and it's got craazy bad press on all sides, which is super inspiring. I'd say it's almost easier to be positive about gaming right now than it has been in the past few years![/QUOTE]
Cutting a longer post short, I have many optimistic positives in it as well
[QUOTE=J!NX;52934636]They aren't even hiding the fact that they're all business no passion. On the indie side there are fraudulent games that aren't even started yet on steam right now, and devs that tell customers to go kill themselves, there is a literal flood of scams on both steam and PSN, all for achievement/trophy farming. Tons of Indie devs used to aspire towards steam and now are ignored on that platform. On the AAA side EA is shitting the bed right now harder than any publisher has in the history of the games industry. Randy Pitchford lies in the faces of honest people and spits on their name. Bethesda, the devs, are cannibalizing the very core community that cares about their games for profit. There are simply a large number of publishers and developers that are absolutely following the easiest possible route to exploiting the psychology of its customer base to make as much money as possible.
To top this all off though, here's the icing on the cake... a multi billion dollar company was selling a video game to children that very blatantly exploited gambling tendencies using a very well known IP that is marketed heavily towards children[/QUOTE]
it's far from hard to complain about the games industry
[QUOTE=9millmeeter;52935442]
not a single good thing has come out of the industry in at least a decade [/QUOTE]
Okay, how dense do you have to be to actually believe that
[QUOTE=9millmeeter;52935442]there's only two ways to fix gaming. you either crash it completely and make sure it doesn't get up or get governments to outlaw it
not a single good thing has come out of the industry in at least a decade and it actively preys on children and the weak. you cannot support this medium in any fucking ethical manner because companies without exception abuse their customers or their own employees. and don't think indies are innocent in this because they do the same fucking things too[/QUOTE]
So the only two ways to fix it are to either A. Kill it OR B. Kill it?
Best way to fix a broken door is by burning the house down I say, and this is why I'm homeless. I burned all previous homes of mine down because they had a broken door. Fixed the problem though.
[QUOTE=9millmeeter;52935442]there's only two ways to fix gaming. you either crash it completely and make sure it doesn't get up or get governments to outlaw it
not a single good thing has come out of the industry in at least a decade and it actively preys on children and the weak. you cannot support this medium in any fucking ethical manner because companies without exception abuse their customers or their own employees. and don't think indies are innocent in this because they do the same fucking things too[/QUOTE]
your posts are always a special brand of dumb
[editline]30th November 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=WhyNott;52935465]Okay, how dense do you have to be to actually believe that[/QUOTE]
just look at his post history.
it's literally all the same quality of thoughtless knee jerk opinions
[QUOTE=J!NX;52935462]Cutting a longer post short, I have many optimistic positives in it as well
it's far from hard to complain about the games industry[/QUOTE]
(Kinda responding to HumanAbyss also)
Oh, for sure it's easy to complain about the games industry and there's definitely a lot of issues going on. But at the same time, they aren't really bringing me down? I guess from my perspective there's the obvious flood of trashy early access games and scams, but there's always been tons of garbage games being released. They're more at the forefront thanks to platforms like steam but it doesn't feel like a real problem because (as far as I'm aware) platforms being filled with cheap crap isn't doing much to drown out the real gems. Games like Cuphead, Night in the Woods and Mario Odyssey are coming out and showing that hard work and passion can lead to real works of art and still be rewarded. Those things outweigh shitty early access survival games and larger political/economic issues by a mile in my head so it's hard to get bitter :v:
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52935496]your posts are always a special brand of dumb
[editline]30th November 2017[/editline]
just look at his post history.
it's literally all the same quality of thoughtless knee jerk opinions[/QUOTE]
He’s been a shitposter from day one, just ignore him
As if the game industry is some how broken. There have been countless incredible AAA and indie titles this year, and in recent past years.
If all you focus on is loot box drama and it convinces you gaming is broken you need to re-evaluate what games are to you. You can completely avoid every single game with abusive loot boxes (key word abusive, plenty of games do it right) and still have countless amazing games to play every year.
[QUOTE=Socram;52935665]As if the game industry is some how broken. There have been countless incredible AAA and indie titles this year, and in recent past years.
If all you focus on is loot box drama and it convinces you gaming is broken you need to re-evaluate what games are to you. You can completely avoid every single game with abusive loot boxes (key word abusive, plenty of games do it right) and still have countless amazing games to play every year.[/QUOTE]
We can't ignore this lootbox issue. We can't just ignore any issue with a medium because "hey, some releases were alright, let's forget about all the bad things!" Lootboxes are a problem that is propagating throughout new AAA releases. It shouldn't have ever taken off to begin with. Some of the biggest editors of this industry are being actively predatory towards their consumers, towards us, and up until now, this trend has only picked up pace.
Point is: we have to protest this. You can choose to be optimistic about this whole industry, but if you want to help it make it better, then sit down and complain, or do whatever you want. But please, don't let them believe we're tolerating these practices, that this is alright. Please, don't.
[QUOTE=Socram;52935665]As if the game industry is some how broken. There have been countless incredible AAA and indie titles this year, and in recent past years.
If all you focus on is loot box drama and it convinces you gaming is broken you need to re-evaluate what games are to you. You can completely avoid every single game with abusive loot boxes (key word abusive, plenty of games do it right) and still have countless amazing games to play every year.[/QUOTE]
But loot boxes aren't the only issue.
There's a multitude you're ignoring to say "everything is fine". It's not.
[QUOTE=Socram;52935665]As if the game industry is some how broken. There have been countless incredible AAA and indie titles this year, and in recent past years.
If all you focus on is loot box drama and it convinces you gaming is broken you need to re-evaluate what games are to you. You can completely avoid every single game with abusive loot boxes (key word abusive, plenty of games do it right) and still have countless amazing games to play every year.[/QUOTE]
I don't give a fuck about the whole 'think of the children' mentality, but this is exploiting a market geared towards kids/teens by using actual gambling tactics. We can't ignore that can we? This is one of the times where this actually does affect them.
EA knows that a large number of younger people play their game too, there is no way they don't. It's rated T yet it was released with a huge real money gamble system. If you don't think that's a problem then you have to get real man.
[QUOTE=halfer;52934400]What do you people think of George's videos over the last year?
I considered this guy my favorite YouTuber, but lately his work just doesn't do it for me.
It feels like he's always had his sort of obscure interests, and lately he went straight to them. Be it his overall interest in Japanese culture, or weird indies. He also sort of pulled a Jim Sterling and started forcing gags he enjoys (like the noodles thing).
I guess that should be better for his fans, but I always liked how he had a unique view on super not unique video game topics and franchises.[/QUOTE]
My friend was just remarking this to me the other day, so the sentiment isn't unfounded. George was also my gateway into "Youtube video game video essays" with his awesome retrospective of REmake, letting me discover other personalities like Mark Brown and Jim Sterling (as long as I don't LOOK at him.)
I think the answer is twofold. For one, George appears not to be as educated as Mark or Jim, if his constant mispronunciations are any indication. He's more like an obsessive nerd with above-average articulation and a big soapbox. It's kind of like if Dunkey was less funny and had good opinions. The problem is that the best of these videos are fascinating from an educational standpoint, not from geek populism.
That REmake video, or his massive breakdowns of the MGS series, or even his inside look into Japanese arcade culture, are all fascinating because they let me look at gaming in a new way. Whatever this Jim Sterling-esque character is that he's doing now, it doesn't tell me anything that I haven't heard countless others have complained about before. And for what it's worth, I don't necessarily value George for his critical opinions either. I'd rather hear him say something novel about a game I've played before, not something generic about the latest and greatest.
I think that feeds into the second part, which is that it's apparently really hard to consistently come up with topics for videos. We haven't seen a classic "George" take on something for a little over a year now; it's almost exclusively reviews or flops. Even Mark Brown appears to have had trouble of thinking of anything interesting, given that all of his videos are now either about Zelda or Mario. I guess there's just a shelf life on being an interesting video game analyst on Youtube.
What George needs to find is an established niche. AVGN has remained so successful because there will never be an end to old games to shit on. He needs to establish himself as "that guy" for a certain topic if he wants to stay relevant, whether it's looking at gaming scenes outside of the US or making super in-depth analyses. Whatever it is, he can't keep on going with the trajectory he's on.
I should clarify what I mean, I didn't intend to imply the abusive/preying style loot boxes were okay, and yes I think we should protest with our wallets by not supporting the kinds of games that do this.
As far as the "think of the children" and "is it gambling" style stuff, I will leave that up to impending legislation.
The core of what I was trying to say is that the games industry isn't "broken" like some of the posts and this video title implies. The games industry exists to do 2 things: make games and make money.
Great games are getting made, and I think great games that are monetized fairly deserve to make a lot of money. Some games are abusive, but again, protest with your wallet and things will change. The monetization of games is a constantly evolving thing, thanks to new tech and new business models. The old model of $60 for a AAA game isn't sustainable for most AAA products. Every other entertainment industry has increased their prices except for games for the most part, while the cost for a AAA experiences has sky rocketed.
Rather than increase the base price which would be a barrier for entry, companies experiment with what we've seen for the past 10 years, DLCs, microtransactions, f2p, etc.
Some people do this right (Dota, Clash of Clans, etc) others do it wrong (Battlefront 2, many other mobiles games, etc), and this entire concept of re-monetizing games changes every year. Battlefront 2 is an extreme outlier in its business model and was subsequently crushed by feedback and wallet based protesting. But to act like bf2 style monetization is destroying the industry is just plain wrong, it is one game and one major lesson learned for EA and other AAA publishers.
At the end of the day, people will spend money on whatever they want, and devs will keep making great games that ALSO make great amounts of money. The industry isn't broken or dying, quite the contrary, but it is definitely still transitioning.
[QUOTE=Lyokanthrope;52934929]I feel like he's gotten super cynical since I first started watching his stuff in mid 2015, honestly. It's a little depressing sometimes.[/QUOTE]
I think it came directly as a result of his line of work, he did express the toll burning through big new releases to get reviews and thoughts out there takes on his enjoyment of games and media in general
His industry stuff, [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-2YuPGYabw"]long-form retrospectives[/URL] and Games From My Inbox are why I subscribed to the channel, not to see what he makes of Wolf TNC or whatever. I don't know why he'd even try to keep up with new releases.
[QUOTE=Socram;52935963]The old model of $60 for a AAA game isn't sustainable for most AAA products. Every other entertainment industry has increased their prices except for games for the most part, while the cost for a AAA experiences has sky rocketed.[/QUOTE]
As far as I know, that's wrong. Games haven't really become more expensive to make, unless obviously they're being over-ambitious. The game industry actually earns more and more money every year, and the big publishers are richer than ever. And yet, they're also reaching into their consumers' pockets more as well as more shamelessly than ever. You'd be hard-pressed to find a big publisher that hasn't done anything scummy in the last year.
Big publishers are rotten. And given that they are quite literally the face of the whole gaming industry to the general public, I think it's a serious issue.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52936194]As far as I know, that's wrong. Games haven't really become more expensive to make, unless obviously they're being over-ambitious.[/QUOTE]
You are incorrect, and it has nothing to do with being "over-ambitious". Here is an unfortunately sourceless graph from GDC:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ivy9lQ0.png[/IMG]
Can't speak to the accuracy of the actual numbers, but it is from an official GDC talk so hopefully that gives it some credence.
That being said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the graphical expectations of today's games and see they cost more. Art in particular has gotten ridiculously expensive, the amount of man power it takes to make today's graphics is huge compared to just 5 years ago, let alone 15 or 30. You used to be able to get by with a character artist and environment artist, or even just one. Now you have 3d sculpters for the high resolution model, digital painters for concept and textures, dedicated environment artists just for placing shit, etc etc. Animation has gotten better, and has ALWAYS been expensive. The technical requirements of games, from networking to social systems to just core gameplay have massively grown in complexity, which also trickles down to greater QA expenses.
I am a game developer and have been in the industry for about 5 years myself. I can tell you first hand in that short amount of time everyone talks about how games are costing more, teams are bigger than ever, as are consumer expectations.
This doesn't outright justify the shady practices, but it is impossible to deny the cost of making games has increased dramatically while the base cost ($60) has not changed. Any one who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about or is outright ignoring the obvious.
The industry has had no choice but to adapt, and again, many games do that right or at least what they think is right, while a small but loud minority go about it in very poor ways.
[QUOTE=Loadingue;52936194]As far as I know, that's wrong. Games haven't really become more expensive to make, unless obviously they're being over-ambitious. [/QUOTE]
This literally could not be more wrong. Go read some articles on gameindustry.biz or gamasutra or something.
[QUOTE=Socram;52936299]You are incorrect, and it has nothing to do with being "over-ambitious". Here is an unfortunately sourceless graph from GDC:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/ivy9lQ0.png[/IMG]
Can't speak to the accuracy of the actual numbers, but it is from an official GDC talk so hopefully that gives it some credence.
That being said it doesn't take a rocket scientist to look at the graphical expectations of today's games and see they cost more. Art in particular has gotten ridiculously expensive, the amount of man power it takes to make today's graphics is huge compared to just 5 years ago, let alone 15 or 30. You used to be able to get by with a character artist and environment artist, or even just one. Now you have 3d sculpters for the high resolution model, digital painters for concept and textures, dedicated environment artists just for placing shit, etc etc. Animation has gotten better, and has ALWAYS been expensive. The technical requirements of games, from networking to social systems to just core gameplay have massively grown in complexity, which also trickles down to greater QA expenses.
I am a game developer and have been in the industry for about 5 years myself. I can tell you first hand in that short amount of time everyone talks about how games are costing more, teams are bigger than ever, as are consumer expectations.
[B]This doesn't outright justify the shady practices, but it is impossible to deny the cost of making games has increased dramatically while the base cost ($60) has not changed. [/B]Any one who tells you otherwise has no idea what they're talking about or is outright ignoring the obvious.
The industry has had no choice but to adapt, and again, many games do that right or at least what they think is right, while a small but loud minority go about it in very poor ways.[/QUOTE]
It's also disingenuous to act as though that's the whole picture. Games don't cost more (if you ignore the deluxe editions, season passes, and non-season pass DLC every fucking game has these days), but the actual cost of production has gone way the fuck down. They don't need to print expensive cartridges any more and digital game sales are rising every year.
It should also be noted that games costing more individually is a deliberate publisher decision and that most publishers are producing fewer games each year, resulting in less total expenditure on game development despite each game costing more to make. I would also argue that the whole "Gamers demand games get prettier with every release" thing to be a crock of shit. Look at the indie successes like Stardew Valley, Undertale, or Minecraft, none of those looks particularly impressive and could have been made at any point in the last 15 years.
Fuck, PUBG looks like dogshit and it is the most popular game on steam by a country mile. You can't seriously say games [i]need[/i] to blow your asshole out with their graphics when cheaper, 'ugly' games are consistently selling well.
Rising costs are a thing, but the rising costs aren't inline with the profits the mainline series these publishers produce.
Their profits are at record highs, they make fewer games than ever, and consolidate more of that money than they ever have before. They have the biggest audience they've ever had, and they have the lowest distribution costs they've ever had. Very few things are not going their way.
And that doesn't address the legal tax evasion these companies perform, so they make record profits while games cost more than ever to make, while also not paying taxes. I don't see a great argument anywhere as to why they need to pass the costs along to us more than they already do.
[QUOTE=Super Muffin;52936392]This literally could not be more wrong. Go read some articles on gameindustry.biz or gamasutra or something.[/QUOTE]
Alright I was wrong. What about my main point? Games do make more money than ever. They cost more money to make, but it's only really hard for indie devs to gather that money. AAA publishers don't have justification to try to rip people off like this.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;52936492]Rising costs are a thing, but the rising costs aren't inline with the profits the mainline series these publishers produce.
Their profits are at record highs, they make fewer games than ever, and consolidate more of that money than they ever have before. They have the biggest audience they've ever had, and they have the lowest distribution costs they've ever had. Very few things are not going their way.
And that doesn't address the legal tax evasion these companies perform, so they make record profits while games cost more than ever to make, while also not paying taxes. I don't see a great argument anywhere as to why they need to pass the costs along to us more than they already do.[/QUOTE]
In general it does cost more to make a game but literally almost every other factor is so in their favor that it doesn't seem to matter much
If it did matter they wouldn't be making more money than the fucking movie industry
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta]The actual cost of production has gone way the fuck down. They don't need to print expensive cartridges any more and digital game sales are rising every year.
[/QUOTE]
While this has helped I don't think it comes close to offsetting the increased cost of development and with platforms like steam marketing is also costing more than ever.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta]
It should also be noted that games costing more individually is a deliberate publisher decision and that most publishers are producing fewer games each year, resulting in less total expenditure on game development despite each game costing more to make.
[/QUOTE]
Less games are coming out because they take longer to make than they used to as well, which further increases costs, but I'd love to see some numbers on the "less total expenditure". Bigger teams also mean less devs to go around for a given studio to develop multiple games at once.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta]
I would also argue that the whole "Gamers demand games get prettier with every release" thing to be a crock of shit. Look at the indie successes like Stardew Valley, Undertale, or Minecraft, none of those looks particularly impressive and could have been made at any point in the last 15 years.
[/QUOTE]
I specifically said [B]AAA[/B] games must have that level of graphic fidelity, and considering [I]AAA[/I] games are the ones re-monetizing things it is entirely relevant. I also specifically acknowledged that Indie games are part of what is keeping the games industry a thriving and incredible place to be in a previous post, since they are able to focus on experiences that a AAA could never do, while not needing to charge $60+ to support their development.
Note in my post about rising cost of game development I explicitly left out Indie titles, because while they are part of the equation when I argue about how NOT dead the industry is, they are not part of the equation when I defend AAA publishers/developers coming up with new ways to monetize. Indie games don't cost millions of dollars (usually), so they don't need to make millions of dollars.
[editline]1st December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52936509]In general it does cost more to make a game but literally almost every other factor is so in their favor that it doesn't seem to matter much
If it did matter they wouldn't be making more money than the fucking movie industry[/QUOTE]
Movies struggle with a similar problem, FX are costing more than ever but everyone bitches when movie ticket prices go up.
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