• Game Maker's Toolkit - Half-Life 2's Invisible Tutorial
    27 replies, posted
[video=youtube;MMggqenxuZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MMggqenxuZc[/video]Has anyone else heard of these videos?
Actually, a lot of what he's said is bunk as you'll see down at the bottom, or at least I did, the specific keys and they did.
[QUOTE=Swilly;47017984]Actually, a lot of what he's said is bunk as you'll see down at the bottom, or at least I did, the specific keys and they did.[/QUOTE] I'm confused. What're you saying?
Fuck games that aim for infants.
[QUOTE=Swilly;47017984]Actually, a lot of what he's said is bunk as you'll see down at the bottom, or at least I did, the specific keys and they did.[/QUOTE] He's not talking about the game world teaching you how to use controls, there's no possible way for it to do that without breaking the 4th wall. He's talking about how the game lets you figure out mechanics and puzzles for yourself rather then telling you exactly how to interact with the world. Most games would give you a pop up hint or something saying "Follow wires and cables for puzzle solutions" rather then just letting the player discover that on their own. HL2 showed that you don't need to point things out to a player, as long as it's framed well you can teach a million things through the world alone.
Dunno why HL2 is the example here when there are many other games that do the exact same thing, some of which did it earlier and better
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;47018500]Dunno why HL2 is the example here when there are many other games that do the exact same thing, some of which did it earlier and better[/QUOTE] Half Life 2 is just a very popular game that did it all very well.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;47018500]Dunno why HL2 is the example here when there are many other games that do the exact same thing, some of which did it earlier and better[/QUOTE] You could say that for any example on any subject quite frankly HL2 is likely their choice because it's well known, done well and their methods are explained several times through in-game voice commentary
This makes me wish Valve made video games again...
[QUOTE=Swilly;47017984]Actually, a lot of what he's said is bunk as you'll see down at the bottom, or at least I did, the specific keys and they did.[/QUOTE] Yes, what kind of game expects me not to know every single key binding? Only a baby wouldn't check out the configuration every time a new mechanic is discovered.
[QUOTE=HAKKAR!!!;47018500]Dunno why HL2 is the example here when there are many other games that do the exact same thing, some of which did it earlier and better[/QUOTE] related: [video=youtube;8FpigqfcvlM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM[/video]
[QUOTE=Swilly;47017984]Actually, a lot of what he's said is bunk as you'll see down at the bottom, or at least I did, the specific keys and they did.[/QUOTE] You're like a laidback tunnelvision game designer.
[QUOTE=Snickerdoodle;47020136]related: [video=youtube;8FpigqfcvlM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FpigqfcvlM[/video][/QUOTE] I actually had this video as a piece of course literature when I did my TDDD23 course in game design and programming, for a passing grade our games had to be without pop-up tutorials or the like.
[QUOTE=ace13;47020216]I actually had this video as a piece of course literature when I did my TDDD23 course in game design and programming, for a passing grade our games had to be without pop-up tutorials or the like.[/QUOTE] That sounds like the perfect class and I want to take that class.
[QUOTE=ace13;47020216]I actually had this video as a piece of course literature when I did my TDDD23 course in game design and programming, for a passing grade our games had to be without pop-up tutorials or the like.[/QUOTE]I have a question. How can you do this if you're using mouse/kb as input device? Sure on a controller you can mash buttons and find out but it doesn't work nearly as well on a keyboard.
I still find it funny how egoraptor praises the "show not tell" method, when he constantly whined about not knowing shit when not being told how to do shit like a baby back when I watched gamegrumps.
[QUOTE=itisjuly;47021018]I have a question. How can you do this if you're using mouse/kb as input device? Sure on a controller you can mash buttons and find out but it doesn't work nearly as well on a keyboard.[/QUOTE] have controls on bits of the environment
[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;47021133]have controls on bits of the environment[/QUOTE] Sounds like breaking the 4th wall. I'd rather have control popups than controls in the environment.
[QUOTE=Crimor;47021103]I still find it funny how egoraptor praises the "show not tell" method, when he constantly whined about not knowing shit when not being told how to do shit like a baby back when I watched gamegrumps.[/QUOTE] Let's not turn this into yet another Game Grumps debate and just say that Ego's opinions used to matter more before his OoT vs. LttP video and Game Grumps. If a game is real complex that it needs instructions (say, an RPG that isn't heavily streamlined), then tutorials can really help someone understand the mechanics. Leave optional things around for in-depth explanations and mechanics delving, though. But otherwise, organic tutorials are pretty great when done right. Far, far greater than the likes of Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess' frontloaded 4 hours of tutorials and exposition. [editline]27th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=itisjuly;47021169]Sounds like breaking the 4th wall. I'd rather have control popups than controls in the environment.[/QUOTE] It depends on the game. If it's something meant to make you think, screw with game mechanics and expectations and such, then breaking the fourth wall isn't so bad; or if the game just doesn't take itself very seriously, like the Mario RPGs. If the game is trying to be immersive and establish a willing sense of disbelief via some amount of realism, however, you can't have a character then turn around and tell you to, [b]"Push the SELECT button,"[/b] or see some chalk on a wall describing controls outright.
I'm more surprised how other major developers didn't take any cues from Valve's design and applied it to their games, it's just sad, it just proves further how all these games are run off the mill crap.
[QUOTE=Crimor;47021103]I still find it funny how egoraptor praises the "show not tell" method, when he constantly whined about not knowing shit when not being told how to do shit like a baby back when I watched gamegrumps.[/QUOTE] For some reason Egoraptor has no physical ability to play games in a 3D world because the additional level of freedom in movement throws him off entirely, which is made worse by him not paying enough attention to the game in his grump videos. He's also shown in his zelda video that he just can't deal with the fact that's his own problem and that not the game's fault. He's always had this issue, it was just made apparent in Game Grumps. The real problem is there's just a threshold of complexity that's really low for him and anything past that point will confuse him beyond belief.
[QUOTE=Rammaster;47018836]This makes me wish Valve made video games again...[/QUOTE] Hasn't released a game in over a year, obviously that means they stopped making them.
[QUOTE=Grindigo;47022116]I'm more surprised how other major developers didn't take any cues from Valve's design and applied it to their games, it's just sad, it just proves further how all these games are run off the mill crap.[/QUOTE] To be perfectly fair Valve takes like five years minimum to make a single game and their method requires a metric ton of playtesting which is both expensive and stupidly time consuming. Not every dev team has the ability to finance the making of a game for five years just to make sure every single aspect of it is designed to funnel the player into a perfect experience when you can just write down a few lines in a pop up box. [editline]27th January 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=UnidentifiedFlyingTard;47022170]Hasn't released a game in over a year, obviously that means they stopped making them.[/QUOTE] The part of valve that's working on Half Life hasn't actually released a game in forever. Dota 2 and CS:GO are handled separately by a different part of the team and as straight forward competitive multiplayer games they don't exactly have the same goals or standards of quality as a single player experience (not to say they're shit, but the standards are completely different and aim for different results). The last single player game we got from the team in charge of those was portal 2 and that'll be four years ago soon.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;47022172]To be perfectly fair Valve takes like five years minimum to make a single game and their method requires a metric ton of playtesting which is both expensive and stupidly time consuming. Not every dev team has the ability to finance the making of a game for five years just to make sure every single aspect of it is designed to funnel the player into a perfect experience when you can just write down a few lines in a pop up box. [editline]27th January 2015[/editline] [/QUOTE] Wouldn't be an issue if they actually had some really well designed tools, but let's hope Source Engine 2 tools will be worthy.
[QUOTE=Grindigo;47022341]Wouldn't be an issue if they actually had some really well designed tools, but let's hope Source Engine 2 tools will be worthy.[/QUOTE] They are. They're running an open beta for Dota on Source 2 [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools"]right now[/URL], and the tools are [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools/Level_Design"]miles ahead[/URL] of the stuff we have for Source 1. EDIT: Here's a [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1415582"]thread about it[/URL] with a whole bunch of stuff.
[QUOTE=TwoYearLurker;47022368]They are. They're running an open beta for Dota on Source 2 [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools"]right now[/URL], and the tools are [URL="https://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Dota_2_Workshop_Tools/Level_Design"]miles ahead[/URL] of the stuff we have for Source 1. EDIT: Here's a [URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1415582"]thread about it[/URL] with a whole bunch of stuff.[/QUOTE] I know there are tools for dota2 but what we have right now isn't anything like unreal engine 4 wise where you can test things on the run, talking about scripting.
Even then you still have to constantly redo and rework your levels based on the feedback of several playtesters. Give any of the commentaries on EP2 a listen and you'll understand that not only did playtester feedback force them to drastically change some features and mechanics of the game but it also forced them to rethink entire level structures because the more idiotic playtesters would not be able to figure out they were going in a loop or would freak out when given slightly too much freedom in a linear game. Valve's method of making games may give great results but these results are essentially obtained after turning the game around and around and reworking it constantly until you get the most optimally user-friendly set of levels you can possibly come up with, which takes forever, regardless of what you use to make these levels.
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