A little bit bothered with that comment that "& was a letter, not a symbol", what does he think letters are, in the end? That's also not counting how & wouldn't be a letter, either. Letters are, by definition, graphemes that compose an alphabet(this means that individual letters account for basic significant sounds, both vowels and consonants, and are assigned equal importance; Latin, Cyrillic and Hangul are alphabets, for instance), but & is a logogram. It symbolises a word, and can't be used outside of its specific context; you can't spell android as "&roid", for instance.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;53045385]A little bit bothered with that comment that "& was a letter, not a symbol", what does he think letters are, in the end? That's also not counting how & wouldn't be a letter, either. Letters are, by definition, graphemes that compose an alphabet(this means that individual letters account for basic significant sounds, both vowels and consonants, and are assigned equal importance; Latin, Cyrillic and Hangul are alphabets, for instance), but & is a logogram. It symbolises a word, and can't be used outside of its specific context; you can't spell android as "&roid", for instance.[/QUOTE]
S&box works just fine?
[QUOTE=Samiam22;53045385] but & is a logogram. It symbolises a word, and can't be used outside of its specific context; you can't spell android as "&roid", for instance.[/QUOTE]
Th@s what you think
[QUOTE=Hey I'm Grump;53045585]Th@s what you think[/QUOTE]
þ@ʃ ƿhæt you ðink
[QUOTE=Helix Snake;53045599]þ@ʃ ƿhæt you ðink[/QUOTE]
what you just call me?
I still don't understand why we don't drop the letter C.
It's such a redundant letter.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;53045705]I still don't understand why we don't drop the letter C.
It's such a redundant letter.[/QUOTE]
Because that would ruin the Alphabet Song. Don't even think about it.
If we dropped C, spelling it kunt would be like we're trying to pussy foot around the actual word.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;53045705]I still don't understand why we don't drop the letter C.
It's such a redundant letter.[/QUOTE]
That "redundant" letter makes up 1/4 of my name. And my name already has one 'k' in it.
[QUOTE=Quark:;53045576]S&box works just fine?[/QUOTE]
S&box is a play on it, it's not a valid spelling of the word. It is an orthographical pun that only works in English. Other languages that use the &, have different words for "and", and the pun is lost.
The point is that & represents the word "and", it originally came from the Latin "et", not the "and" cluster of letters. Therefore, it is a logogram. Even if it [I]did[/I] represent the "and" cluster of letters, it still wouldn't be a letter, it would be representing a complete syllable and would then be a syllabogram, not unlike Japanese kana.
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;53045730]That "redundant" letter makes up 1/4 of my name. And my name already has one 'k' in it.[/QUOTE]
Well not all of us are lucky enough to be named Cake.
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;53045705]I still don't understand why we don't drop the letter C.
It's such a redundant letter.[/QUOTE]
What would replace it for the ch sound?
[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;53045780]What would replace it for the ch sound?[/QUOTE]
Cyrillic has a letter that's pretty much the same sound, Ч. Let's just swap C out for that.
[QUOTE=Lime-alicious;53045780]What would replace it for the ch sound?[/QUOTE]
yeah let's not go culling any more letters when we already can't spell biz cas (business casual)
caj? cadj? casch? somebody help
[QUOTE=Darth Ninja;53045730]That "redundant" letter makes up 1/4 of my name. And my name already has one 'k' in it.[/QUOTE]
Suppose you're just biased then, Cockarus
[QUOTE=Geikkamir;53045705]I still don't understand why we don't drop the letter C.
It's such a redundant letter.[/QUOTE]
why not drop K and replace it with it two Cs?
[QUOTE=Rusty100;53045794]yeah let's not go culling any more letters when we already can't spell biz cas (business casual)
caj? cadj? casch? somebody help[/QUOTE]
from what i've gathered from netflix subtitles spelling out the shorthand for usual, "cazh" or "cazhe" would be what you're looking for
Theoretically, based on how we use the Latin alphabet, the English language could drop to just 19 letters:
A B D E G H I K L M N O P R S T V W Z
by converting the following:
J sounds identical typically to Dge or Dzh, such that a Jay would become a Dgey or a Dzhay if J did not exist. However, because "Zh" can also be represented as "Sio" or "Tio" as in Erosion or Contortion, you could even interpret J as Dsio or Dtio, such that Journal becomes "Dzhournal" or something horrifying like "Dsiournal" or, more extremely, "Dtioernol"! It's also in some cases convertible directly to G if a silent E is present, but this places it in conflict with the spelling of some words and thus could not be a global change without many other differences in spelling.
F is both interpetable as Ph and Ugh/Ough due to oddities in terms of pronunciation and spelling ingrained within the language. (For example, you could have Stuff become Stuph if basing it on Phone, or Stough if basing it on Tough)
U is emulatable with Oo or W (i.e. Tube becomes Toob if based on Food or Twb if based on Crwth) and Yoo (Yoosless). The u in "fun" or "gut" is a bit more complicated, however.
In those cases, they are analogous to o + double consonant + e (i.e. Fun -> Fonne/Phonne like with Tonne [it'd be a bit more convoluted to set it up with just an O and silent E because of the existences of words like Tone]) and "ha" (Gut -> Ghat, like with What, or Luck would become Lhack), respectively.
C by itself is easily converted to K or S (Ce -> Ss or Se), but an often-overlooked phoneme would be Ch, which depending on the context either becomes "K" (Kemistry), "Sh" (Catch -> Katsh), or bizarrely, "Tu" in conjunction with a silent E or "Tio" (Chair -> Tuaire, Launcher -> Launture or Chat -> Tuate as in Future or Fortune using the former, or Tioair, Launtior and Tioat based on Auction).
The rest are more straightforward, with "or" indicating separate contexts due to significantly different sounds being executed with the letter being removed from the above list:
X -> Ks or Z (i.e. Aksle, Taksi or Zylem)
Q -> K && Qu -> Kw (i.e. Irak, Kween or Likwid)
Y -> I, Ie or Ee (i.e. Linch, Iellow or Stickee)
That of course ignores the whole point of additional letters existing to prevent you from needing multiple to describe a sound and that most of these spellings look absolutely ridiculous, but it was just for the sake of defining a minimal amount without impeding pronunciation and to also show how many bizarre combinations of letters converge onto the same sound.
[QUOTE=milktree;53045964]why not drop K and replace it with it two Cs?[/QUOTE]
That idea succs!
[QUOTE=The Duke;53046026]J sounds identical typically to Dge or Dzh, such that a Jay would become a Dgey or a Dzhay if J did not exist. However, because "Zh" can also be represented as "Sio" or "Tio" as in Erosion or Contortion, you could even interpret J as Dsio or Dtio, such that Journal becomes "Dzhournal" or something horrifying like "Dsiournal" or, more extremely, "Dtioernol"! It's also in some cases convertible directly to G if a silent E is present, but this places it in conflict with the spelling of some words and thus could not be a global change without many other differences in spelling.[/QUOTE]
This is actually more or less what happens in German, the J letter can't have that sound, so they replace it with "dsch". The German word for "jungle" is spelled "Dschungel" yet pronounced pretty much the same as English.
[QUOTE=Samiam22;53046082]This is actually more or less what happens in German, the J letter can't have that sound, so they replace it with "dsch". The German word for "jungle" is spelled "Dschungel" yet pronounced pretty much the same as English.[/QUOTE]
Makes sense, considering that the English "Y" is analogous to what is "J" in most languages.
[QUOTE=The Duke;53046026]Dtioernol[/QUOTE]
i think i might have snorted at one point
[QUOTE=The Duke;53046026]Theoretically, based on how we use the Latin alphabet, the English language could drop to just 19 letters:
A B D E G H I K L M N O P R S T V W Z
by converting the following:
J sounds identical typically to Dge or Dzh, such that a Jay would become a Dgey or a Dzhay if J did not exist. However, because "Zh" can also be represented as "Sio" or "Tio" as in Erosion or Contortion, you could even interpret J as Dsio or Dtio, such that Journal becomes "Dzhournal" or something horrifying like "Dsiournal" or, more extremely, "Dtioernol"! It's also in some cases convertible directly to G if a silent E is present, but this places it in conflict with the spelling of some words and thus could not be a global change without many other differences in spelling.
F is both interpetable as Ph and Ugh/Ough due to oddities in terms of pronunciation and spelling ingrained within the language. (For example, you could have Stuff become Stuph if basing it on Phone, or Stough if basing it on Tough)
U is emulatable with Oo or W (i.e. Tube becomes Toob if based on Food or Twb if based on Crwth) and Yoo (Yoosless). The u in "fun" or "gut" is a bit more complicated, however.
In those cases, they are analogous to o + double consonant + e (i.e. Fun -> Fonne/Phonne like with Tonne [it'd be a bit more convoluted to set it up with just an O and silent E because of the existences of words like Tone]) and "ha" (Gut -> Ghat, like with What, or Luck would become Lhack), respectively.
C by itself is easily converted to K or S (Ce -> Ss or Se), but an often-overlooked phoneme would be Ch, which depending on the context either becomes "K" (Kemistry), "Sh" (Catch -> Katsh), or bizarrely, "Tu" in conjunction with a silent E or "Tio" (Chair -> Tuaire, Launcher -> Launture or Chat -> Tuate as in Future or Fortune using the former, or Tioair, Launtior and Tioat based on Auction).
The rest are more straightforward, with "or" indicating separate contexts due to significantly different sounds being executed with the letter being removed from the above list:
X -> Ks or Z (i.e. Aksle, Taksi or Zylem)
Q -> K && Qu -> Kw (i.e. Irak, Kween or Likwid)
Y -> I, Ie or Ee (i.e. Linch, Iellow or Stickee)
That of course ignores the whole point of additional letters existing to prevent you from needing multiple to describe a sound and that most of these spellings look absolutely ridiculous, but it was just for the sake of defining a minimal amount without impeding pronunciation and to also show how many bizarre combinations of letters converge onto the same sound.[/QUOTE]
That reminds me of this Mark Twain piece
[quote]For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.[/quote]
[QUOTE=Samiam22;53045385]A little bit bothered with that comment that "& was a letter, not a symbol", what does he think letters are, in the end? That's also not counting how & wouldn't be a letter, either. Letters are, by definition, graphemes that compose an alphabet(this means that individual letters account for basic significant sounds, both vowels and consonants, and are assigned equal importance; Latin, Cyrillic and Hangul are alphabets, for instance), but & is a logogram. It symbolises a word, and can't be used outside of its specific context; you can't spell android as "&roid", for instance.[/QUOTE]
Oh dang, & has always been "et" to me. As it is in "et cetera." I just now realized S&box isn't Setbox but rather Sandbox. :v:
[QUOTE=Funktastic Dog;53046161]That reminds me of this Mark Twain piece
[quote]For example, in Year 1 that useless letter "c" would be dropped to be replased either by "k" or "s", and likewise "x" would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which "c" would be retained would be the "ch" formation, which will be dealt with later. Year 2 might reform "w" spelling, so that "which" and "one" would take the same konsonant, wile Year 3 might well abolish "y" replasing it with "i" and Iear 4 might fiks the "g/j" anomali wonse and for all.
Jenerally, then, the improvement would kontinue iear bai iear with Iear 5 doing awai with useless double konsonants, and Iears 6-12 or so modifaiing vowlz and the rimeining voist and unvoist konsonants. Bai Iear 15 or sou, it wud fainali bi posibl tu meik ius ov thi ridandant letez "c", "y" and "x" -- bai now jast a memori in the maindz ov ould doderez -- tu riplais "ch", "sh", and "th" rispektivli.
Fainali, xen, aafte sam 20 iers ov orxogrefkl riform, wi wud hev a lojikl, kohirnt speling in ius xrewawt xe Ingliy-spiking werld.[/quote][/QUOTE]
I think this is supposed to be ridiculous but I see nothing wrong with this :v:
English is hard enough to learn as a secondary language. No reason to make it even harder.
A few of these are actually still being used in Icelandic. I remember being baffled when I saw their writing the first time.
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