"Women are absolutely equal" - Saudi Crown Prince - Sensationalist Headlines

On Women’s Rights When asked if women were equal to men, Prince Mohammed said: “Absolutely. We are all human beings and there is no difference.” His rise to power has been accompanied by a loosening of restrictions on women’s dress and an expansion of their role in the work force. He said the government was working on regulations to ensure equal pay. But women in Saudi Arabia are still bound by so-called guardianship laws that give male relatives control over aspects of their lives, like their ability to travel abroad and undergo certain medical procedures. Meanwhile on the topic of the ~400 elites recently arrested to secure his power base What we did in Saudi Arabia was extremely necessary,” Prince Mohammed said of the arrests. “All actions taken were in accordance with existing and published laws.” Relatives and associates of the detained said that many were subjected to coercive tactics and physical abuse to get them to sign assets over to the state. One detainee died, his body showing signs of mistreatment. The Saudi government denies that any abuse took place. No sir. We're not a backwards country that makes politically driven arrests. No siree.

you're missing the source for the article :v

The OP is incredibly ignorant to the full context of the 60 minutes interview. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/saudi-crown-prince-talks-to-60-minutes/ Turn off you ad-blocker, actually watch the interview, and I think most people on here are going to realize the Crowned Prince seems like a real-deal reformer for good.

equal to dogs, he probably meant

Perpetuating a culture of repression is not something to be lauded in any circumstance.

The best part is when you find out how the elites were arrested. http://saudigazette.com.sa/uploads/imported_images/2017/05/ritz.jpg https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b5/24/f4/b524f409bfcadfe660ce02cb0d1afbc1.jpg Basically house arrested at one of the most swanky hotels in Riyadh. A lot of them just had to pay back what they supposedly took from the government to get out.

The fact that Trump likes him makes me immedietly suspicious of his intentions.

Trump likes him? wtf i hate him now

How about you make your own informed assessment instead of basing your prejudices on what Trump likes? Really a petty reason to dismiss him. Also we all know Saudi Arabia isn’t going to change overnight, but I am sure you aware that being house arrested in that hotel is infinitely better than some of the summary executions and other terrible methods SA is known to employ. Though I do really enjoy how the one time a major reformer is pushing for gender equality, tackling corruption, and modernization in the Middle East it is me who is enthusiastic and you getting uptight cause it doesn’t happen in the idealistic sense.

Because by and large Trump just so happens to associate himself or go out of his way to praise terrible people, whether it's at home with people like Manafort and Flynn or his various political appointments that have ran their respective departments into the fucking ground, or foreign leaders like Putin, Duterte, or Sisi. If it was a one-off it might be petty, at this point I'd file it under due diligence. Trumps words and actions necessitate questioning the motives for everything he does, and I simply don't believe based on his (Trumps) track record when it comes to things like corruption and gender equality that he is genuinely interested in things like reform and modernization. I'm just surprised because you tend to make your approval of totalitarianism a bit more subtle. You're enthusiastic because Trump likes him. I'm unenthusiastic because as a general rule I put little stock in the promises and a politician, let alone a Saudi prince.

The prince may not be perfect or ideal, but he's probably much better than the previous leadership. So progress is progress I guess.

Here's the rub. I know it's easy for us in the west to say "well he's not really doing enough, so he's still shit" but he exists in a society that is utterly unlike ours. Change is destabilizing in the worst of times, and Saudi Arabia is not in the best of times right now. He cannot institute all the change we'd like to see at once, presuming he even wanted to do that. He is however, working piece by piece to modernize many elements of the country on a topic that it hasn't really had a discussion on in quite some historically significant time. Does that mean the guy is a good ruler? No. He's quite literally trying to grab absolute power over the monarchy by eliminating and mitigating his rivalries for the throne. He's attempting to grab despotic levels of power, and maybe he'll use that to good effect to better the country, but I doubt it. I'm not passing approval of the guy, but he's far from the absolute worst case scenario we could see here, and that's worth keeping in mind when we talk shit about him.

You can't expect a theological monarchy to become a liberal utopia overnight

Pretty much what I said in under 30 words.

From the OP Relatives and associates of the detained said that many were subjected to coercive tactics and physical abuse to get them to sign assets over to the state. One detainee died, his body showing signs of mistreatment. Fair enough if you think the ends justifies the means when it comes to some vague sense of progress but I think these perspectives say more about the absolute state of Saudi Arabia than it does the prince. The bar has been set so low that the most naked examples of illiberal totalitarianism are now being seen as justified because they were corrupt and we didn't keep them in horrific conditions and only a couple of them were abused but only one died and it's all in the name of progress.

It's not something im okay with but neither was the SA status quo.

Changing laws and reforming takes so much time, people don't realize you can't just press a button and all laws change in blink of eye.

Having someone who is bad but is less-bad than what the place had before still moves the needle in the right direction. It's the same with Iran. Better than before but still not great. It's not a black and white good guy bad guy thing. You can be a bad guy but still be a better bet then what came before.

Just so long as we make sure to keep in mind that he is indisputably a bad guy who's intentions should be taken with an immense grain of salt.

Im honestly confused how people can not admit this dude is Saudi Arabias best bet right now all things considered. People seem to grant Iran a pass despite being a theocratic hell hole as well because they had a vaguely liberal election despite the country still being objectively terrible. Saudi Arabia is still objectively terrible but you cannot say they're not moving the needle at least a bit.

Like I said in my initial post. I don't think he's a good ruler or a good person. He's grabbing power as despotically as he can. With all that in mind though, he is changing the SA status quo slowly. Yeah, it's "progress" at the cost of something, and no it isn't "worth it", but it also isn't something we really have a choice but to accept in many ways. Yes, it sucks, and I don't think the guy should be hailed as anything other than a dictator but that doesn't change the headfuckery of a bad person changing somethings into better things. I just think it's worth being flat and honest about these things than emotional. It sucks he's a dictator and he's in charge, but are we really saying anything new about Saudi Arabia by making a statement like that? Hasn't it been like that for a while?

And my argument is that he isn't changing shit where it matters. He has made very tiny strides towards women being able to be considered people instead of some sort of chattel underclass, all while violating human rights at a rate higher than his predecessors and starting a war with Yemen, not to mention potentially pursueing nuclear weapons and actively lobbying in the United States to do so. My argument is thoroughly fact-based and, more importantly, consistent. Maybe you should be less emotional about these things.

Is this what I want? No. I think I've made it clear he's a despot and that's bad. But is this better than before? Yes. You can read that as me condoning him, but it isn't. You can read that how you read what Tudd said, but it isn't what I'm saying. Are the ideals we both wish could happen similar? Probably. Are either of those similar ideals realisitic in modern Saudi Arabia? Not really. There's nothing any of us could ever do to change this, so just "accepting it" is all I can really do.

I think what's important to remember here is, is that currently Saudia Arabia's future, both the country as a whole and a monarchy is ever quickly turning out to be worse and worse. The Crown Prince realizes that, with cheapening Oil exports, as well as the inevitable depletion of Saudi Arabia's oil wells, his country and especially the monarchy that controls it is absolutely and totally fucked. As soon as that oil runs out at a cheap cost due to renewable energy sources, Saudi Arabia will no longer be able to support its artificially inflated standard of living it has for the past 50 years, and that is the point where the populace will turn on the government and destroy every single facet of the monarchy, much like the Arab spring did to dictatorships not supported by oil. The crown prince wants to avoid this at all cost, so the only solution he sees is to instead modernize the country culturally, bringing in western values to allow for better education, employment and most importantly a sense of nationalism and nationalistic pride. Make no mistake, this is not a move for the crown prince to try and liberalize the country and make it more democratic, he is simply attempting to ensure the survival of the status quo for the rest of his rule. This does, however, not at all change the impact of these decisions of the country and it is absolutely fantastic to see the crown prince attempt to bring his country out of the pit of extremism it has been stuck in for so long, and into progressive and egalitarian values.

Credit where it's due, there seems to be some legitimate attempts at improving the situation over there.

First; I had no idea Trump has even acknowledged or supported Mohammed bin Salman until you just mentioned it. So real ace analysis and assumptions there, not that it matters anyways. Trump likes/dislikes a wide-range of people on reasons we have a hard time explaining. Take Macron for example, I bet you never applied your silly standards on Macron in the same way. Your argument is essentially anything that Trump likes is somehow immediately poisoned; Which has the intellectual argumentation that would make a 10 year old proud. Now your accusation I support Totalitarianism; Are we really going to suggest anyone that looks forward to reform in Saudi Arabia through the monarchical family is now a supporter for said dictatorial system? Please do tell me your alternatives to how Saudi Arabia is going to progress realistically with their history, power dynamics of the royals, and conservative attitudes. In all seriousness you are being naïve or purposely ignorant as I suspect you haven't even watched the 60 minutes interview or delved on this issue besides some headlines and further assumptions. The CBS reporters in their after-show said that they did see real changes in Saudi Arabia, and having reported on SA since 1975, they are hopeful since women can now vote, attend driving schools to drive cars, and attend sporting events (something women were arrested for only 3 years ago). Now I agree with you on one thing; I don't really trust a Saudi royal family to always be for morals and progress, but what's nice to know is that the Crown Prince is very aware that the Saudi Oil isn't going to last forever, and that they need foreign investment. So label this under realpolitik cynical-ism, but foreign investment and diversifying their economy for their 2030 Saudi Arabia plan is requiring them to progress their social attitudes. That is something you can bank on in a realistic sense. So unless you can adequately explain to everyone how Saudi Arabia ends up progressing in your idealistic way, I am fine being hopeful on this leader, even though I find monarchism old-fashioned and it's dictatorial powers faaaaaar-too overbranching. Please make the case to me how you would upset the terrible status quo of Saudi Arabia.

My mum was the one to tell me about this guy. And honestly, in the end, does the end justify the means? If we're talking about one of the worst countries on the planet as far as human rights are concerned, then you bet your ass it does. A lot of people in the past have grabbed power in worse ways throughout history and the world, and with far less noble intentions. If this guy wants to be a benevolent dictator for this country and move it forward by force, then I won't oppose it. Because if he goes too far, the democracy he values so much might just turn against him.

I'm surprised you hadn't heard. The tweet he made praising not only bin Salman but his purge specifically made headlines and was on the front page of t_d for almost a week. I'd just assumed that you, being such a hardcore Trump supporter, would have heard about it. I'd argue that Macron is the exception, not the rule, which is best illustrated by the fact that I pulled five names out to your one. It's sophistry anyway; my argument wasn't that "everyone who Trump likes is immediately poisoned", it's that Trump has proven himself to be a terrible judge of character and the fact that he routinely sings the praises of criminals and despots. If Trump sees common ground with bin Salman then thats something to worry about because I highly doubt they share the same perspective on womens rights. I don't think you support the theocratic monarchism, but I absolutely believe you're fine with strongmen when they are on your side. I didn't watch the interview but I read the transcript. Most of it is the same PR bullshit Saudi Arabia has been spitting for a couple of years now. Wow, women can vote (as long as the are accompanied by a man) and can drive. It's still a state of rampant civil rights violations that is steadily destabilizing the region through actions like the intervention in Yemen, which has seen a full 80% of the population displaced. They are curtailing some of their most extreme and backwards domestic policies while expanding their influence in the region and I'm the naive one because I'm not clapping and cheering. If Saudi Arabia is no longer starting disastrous proxy wars, beheading people in the streets by the hundreds, detaining government critics indefinitely as "terrorists", and hasn't acquired nuclear weapons by 2030 then I'll praise them then. My role in this discussion was never as the bleeding heart liberal upset because Saudi Arabia hasn't democratically elected it's first transgender queen. You can check that assumption at the door. The point was that people need to be very suspicious of people who wield absolute power, and that token concessions for womens rights needs to be balanced by the fact that human rights at home and abroad have gotten worse under bin Salman's leadership, regardless of the big PR push they are paying millions of dollars for.

This is very good advice Tudd.Very very good advice.😉