Explanation Point - Made in Abyss, Eromanga Sensei, & Anime's Biggest Problem - General

https://youtu.be/Z58thY3Lf1E

I understand the desire to draw lines between things, to say "well this is creepy and awful but here's why what I like isn't", but you really just can't do that here. MiA isn't good because it isn't creepy, or because it wasn't made by a creep. MiA is good because it is, and because it was, and because the person making it is aware of that. I think there's a significant lack of understanding on the part of the video maker here. When he sees a character with exaggerated childlike traits, he says "this isn't sexualized", because to him, "sexualized" means exaggerated secondary sexual characteristics. Because those are what he's attracted to. If, on the other hand, you're a super ultra pedophile like Tsukushi, the exaggerated childlike traits are the thing you're attracted to. You can't just say all the naked children are purely there for artistic reasons and the decision to include them isn't in any way arbitrary or voyeuristic. It totally is. It undeniably is. Those inclusions shape the world of the story, sure, but they're there because the author is sexually attracted to children. As unsettling as it might be to think about, the reality is that good art doesn't only come from expressing good thoughts or good feelings. Everyone has shit in them, and when an artist spills their guts onto the page, some of that shit is going to come out.

Don't want to watch the video cause I haven't finished MiA, can I get a TLDR?

The portrayal of little kids in MiA is humanizing and okay because it portrays the main character as what she is, a little girl (who proceeds to go through some fucked up shit I tell you what) The portrayal of little kids in Eromanga Sensei (and similar shows) is bad and wrong because it sexualizes little girls in scenes when nothing sexual is happening (example scene was little sister crying in brother's arms because she was scared, and immediately showing an ass shot of the little girl) Basically, I guess the controversy stems from the "nudity" in MiA and how its "more wrong" than things like directing someone to perform an amputation on yourself while you are bleeding from the eyes (or basically how a bunch of fucked up shit happens but a little girl's bare chest is infinitely worse)

Part of it is business. Otakus are more willing to shell out the big bucks for merchandise than normal viewers. But I'd say that the main part is because artists in general are more desensitized to nudity and sex than the public. Having a more... "intimate" understanding of the human body and sexuality is just something that comes with being an artist. A ton of iconic western cartoonists and animators have drawn pornography/pin-ups some point in their career (Rebecca Sugar, Dr. Seuss, and Joe Shuster off the top of my head). The difference is that Japan (and I'd say SE Asia) has a much more "mind your own business" attitude towards sexual taboo. It's not like hardcore otaku, fujoshi, etc. culture isn't viewed negatively in Japan, but "social undesirables" are mostly left alone as their own sub-group in society, whereas you'd be flayed alive in western countries. It's easier to sneak in sexual fanservice into manga and anime since a lot of the audience simply ignores it.

...or when it's what the audience is looking for :v

Lack of puritan/victorian guilt, and a means of successfully minding your own business as a cultural rule.

I know nothing of the topic but, is that true?

Just last week I finished watching season 1 of the Made in Abyss anime and yeah it's a little creepy. At first I wanted to give it the benefit of the doubt like sure there's child nudity here but it's all in service of just portraying situations realistically. ie if your story involves a person falling into a river then it's reasonable that in the next scene they might be taking their clothes off so they don't catch hypothermia. The kids are also fairly mature because they grow up in a harsh world where they are put into potentially life threatening situations from a young age, so it detracts from them being children a little bit. Buuuuuuut, it really does go too far. At one point we see the main character get strung up naked in a typical rope bondage/shibari style. It's not a scene that needs to exist. It quickly becomes clear that none of the sexual scenes really need to exist. At one point the main boy character gets an erection while swimming with the main girl character and they spend some time talking about it while another character more or less encourages them to have sex. Tsukushi gravitates towards sexual portrayals of children in situations where there really didn't need to be a sexual element. It's gratuitous and weird.

as someone who has watched made in abyss twice but hasnt read the manga, the only sexual part i found to be weird and out of place was the smash cut joke of the "strung up naked" punishment all other nudity i remember felt appropriate considering the coming of age theme of the characters growing up with how riko has no sexual thoughts or interests whatsoever while reg is growing up and becoming more aware of sexuality from what i've heard though, they toned it down in the anime so it's possible the manga's versions of those scenes are much creepier and weirder, but i didnt think there was anything creepy about the anime's take on it

Even when the anime toned down those aspects in Made in Abyss, you can't help but notice the Original Creator's unusual obsession with the bodily secretions of prepubescent children.

Completely agree with this. It's specifically and only the "strung up naked" thing that irked me, I thought it could be a translation thing since it was just weird to me that that specific phrase came up so often, and often in a context that made it sound like a merely embarrassing but otherwise normal punishment... I thought that it might be a way to show the harsh reality that the punishment had become normalized, but then it's just shown during a lighthearted montage, music playing in the background and all. I mean, it's one thing to show that characters in your story are desensitized, but the audience isn't supposed to be in on that. Even under the assumption that we're supposed to understand that life is so brutal that this punishment seems normal, it hardly makes sense since there's no indication that the authorities of the orphanage want to use this punishment instead of something more immediately obvious like beating them - it seems really elaborate and specific if all you want to do is punish someone.

I have always thought that it was weird for children to be left out when it comes to horrible death in movies and video games. In most games they just don't even exist and in the games where they do, they tend to be immortals. Like Skyrim and Fallout. Personally I don't see the deal with children being sacred or hands off when it comes to death. Other than some people disliking the idea but that's kind of the deal with portraying death in media isn't it? Obviously I get why people don't want anything to do with the can of worms that Japan has been able to make a norm or rather a joke. When you are into Anime though, you just kinda end up ignoring or accepting it for what it is. To most that ends up being a tasteless joke and nothing more. I think it's important to remember that this is done purely in the realm of fantasy. I'd have a way bigger problem if this was a production with real people in it.

it isn't exactly a secret

please nsfl tag that shit my man

Sorry, I assumed the context of the situation was warning enough. It isn't really any different from what's shown in the video, aside from being better drawn.

Actually I don't even think that is allowed to be hosted on Facepunch.

Just take 5 seconds to black bar the nudity, we don't need to see the naughty bits to get the point.

I think I've proven my point anyway. If it's going to bother people this much, I'll just take down the link.

Man, some people on this forum sure get upset at naughty bits.

That's not really a fair characterization. I don't think it's the nudity part that people are uncomfortable with :v

As someone who's watched the anime after reading most of the manga, I gotta say that yes Made in Abyss and Eromanga Sensei are different beasts in tone and worth, but Made in Abyss' anime is also a different beast than the manga in terms of sexualization. Both the Manga and the Anime are still fantastic, and in some places I believe the manga does a better job, but all of the problems with sexualization that the anime has stem from the author's fixation on what some would call DFC. The character designs are therefore not a rebuttal or defense from the notion that the prepubescent girl is being used as tittilation because that's very much what the author (and presumably some portion of the audience) are into. Body autonomy or the lack there of and the violation of holes play a rather disturbing part in the narrative (suppository, Ilblu, , the creatures that use your corpse to call out to others, just... all of the Sea Of Corpses arc, etc) which often leads to nudity which I've seen used as a defense against detractors, however this isn't where the author stops being a bit of a pervert. Maruruk is a little boy forced to dress as a little girl for seemingly little reason, nanachi is often molested by the other characters (and finds it embarrassing/arousing), and the strung up nude punishment is referenced quite a few times during the manga's run by more than just Riko. These, and more are actually cut down significantly by the Anime, and makes it less awkward to watch since these things are only brought up when theme or plot critical. Still, the manga does tie this stuff into the plot like the video says such as where it's used to show that Riko still sees reg as an artifact and not as another human, and that is an important thematic plotpoint. Does that make it ok? I'm not sure. Most of the grossness is tied into themes of the story and serves plenty of purpose within the narrative, but that's not a blanket excuse because the author created the story to tie into these themes. I'd say the Anime did its best to reign in the Author's perversion and comes out the other side with a REALLY good series but that the Manga is still worth wading through the muck to read.

Without any context on the show, nor the scene in particular, you can tell me that i shouldn't raise a concern about a 10 year old girl is hung from the ceiling and naked as part of some sort of terrible punishment, then provide context like the video and ask me to use it as a way to sympatize with the character's tragedy. I could understand it. even the video states that the key difference is how the whole thing is protrayed, so you don't get a free panty shot in the entire show and it does make sense, as its obvious that those shows's goal is to fanservice the audience with free titty shots. wich of course this show doesnt. but dude, they protrait the kid hang up in the middle of a shibaru session. its not that the world is cruel to her due to <<reasons>>, the fucking point of that one scene is to show a kid in a bdsm scene. and judging fromw hats shown in the video the entire point of the video is not to depict the nature of humanity through the eyes of a kid that has lost his childhood, its to literally show kids doing kids should not, because even if you argue that the kid reacts like that only because she doesn't see the robot kid as a human, the entire show is directed to a viewer that actively wants to see kids naked and talking about an erection with other kids. you could argue that western culture has more taboos about portraying kids in harsh enviroments or expose them to topics they shouldn't, but even when it boils down to depict the inherent sexuality of teens in modern society you don't do it to justify a topless scene.

okay so here's the thing MiA is a story about the trauma of peeling back the veil of childhood innocence and finding the disgusting, rotten, filthy shit that exists behind it. The reason that's the story Tsukushi decided to tell is specifically because he desperately wants to be an innocent little boy again, and is repulsed by what he actually is. Reg and Riko are less representations of children and more representations of childhood. Riko is able to look at the world with wonder and awe, as opposed to the bitter cynicism and disinterest of adults. Reg is able to experience sexuality, but because he doesn't understand what it is he isn't burdened with shame or guilt. That's the fantasy part. That's where what the author's desires shape the world of the story. Every work of art starts like that. All stories begin at some arbitrary point determined by what the author wants to do. You can't "excuse" the existence of the sexual elements of MiA any more than you can "excuse" the optimistic perspective of Star Trek. Tsukushi just wanted to create a story about an innocent robot boy. Gene Roddenberry just wanted to create a story about a future where people all get along. The important thing is that the world they built on top of that skeleton of personal interest or desire works, and I would argue that in MiA's case, it totally does.

I read the MiA manga, and I'm not sure why having a scene where a little girl gets her vagoo licked by a monster toilet and apparently enjoying it is necessary in any way. The author likes loli stuff, that much is clear. It's just a shame that his otherwise really interesting story and universe has to be influenced by his fetish.

I'm pretty sure the monster toilet crawling with insects and filth in the town full of deformed monster people was supposed to be creepy the narehate village is like, the physical embodiment of creepiness

I understand that, and it certainly repulses me, but it doesn't really affect the main character at all, so it doesn't communicate well. And i feel like there's a fine line between creating something that's supposed to be creepy, and creating something that's really just fanservice. I dunno man. I feel MiA crosses this line on several occasions. I don't know if it's a bad thing or not for everyone, but it's really just feels like softcore loli stuff at points.

I agree generally speaking, I just don't really think cronenberg shit eating monster toilet counts as "fanservice" :v

it is when you put a loli getting her poopy hole getting licked.

Made in Abyss looks really uncomfortable to watch. Is it worth it?