I don't want people to stop killing me. I just want to know who I should kill.
Psychologically I'm 70 - 80th percentile in the agreeableness trait, so I can't help but feel compassionate towards players and I can be running around killing random people, it's not rewarding!
But I want to have fun in the game so I want to go kill those jerks that KOS everyone and loot obviously new players and kill for no reason.
I don't want to give them advantage of attacking first, I want to go hunting for them. Even if they do attack first I don't know if they are actually nice people who are being cautious, and I've met those people.
Karma systems would give me some sense of purpose as a solo white-hat guy. I can't go up against clans, I don't really want to team up, I enjoy building in some interesting places. But what would give my Rust life a meaning is an ability to hunt for the kind of people that killed and looted me on my first day.
Karma system is mostly for the agreeable minority of players. Would it work? Would it ruin some play styles? How could it be implemented? Should it be tied to account or a server? Should it be turned off before the wipe?
Would it make the game too safe? I think it would make it safer, but not too safe. There would be explicit affiliation - bad guys and good guys. It would put the jerks at disadvantage, but that might make the game only better for almost everyone.
I agree. I think that somewhere down the track it will happen as there is the introduction of bandit town. So eventually if you're good you go to the scientists compound if not, then you go to the bandits town.
I also have made some suggestions that if you kill someone, then for a period of time you are more attractive to the heli, even if you are safe inside your base. Too far I hear you say? Yeah probably, but I enjoy the game too much to see it slide into just a high tech PVP slash feast.
A Karma system has been suggested and rejected numerous times in the past. They want it to be like in real life where you judge good guys or bad guys based on their actions rather than a good/bad gauge or other means.
However, such a system could be an eventuality with the recent addition of what will potentially be modding tools. Or in other words while a karma system will likely never be a thing for Vanilla Rust it may be a mod down the line.
I think it's worth implementing and testing on one server.
Well you can always rent your own server,
For Modded servers there is already a plugin for this, Personally I think its a waste of time, its a survival game,
You get killed so thats either carelessness or bad luck,
I expected that a lot of people will miss my point even if I put it in bold font in the first line of the OP.
Edited the post added summary. Will be adding all arguments into pros and cons.
Added faction suggestion, but by the sound of it, devs are working on something like that, righ? Clear faction affiliation with faction rules. If you are from the good guy faction, people can trust you. You can easily join the faction and it will impose limitations on you. This will allow to build communities and have better player interaction outside mindless PvP.
"They want this to be like real life."
I didn't know in real life you went around just killing everyone you see.
I didn't comment on that because I think is just a poorly formulated argument. So let me make argument for him. Realism is definitely not an argument in such unrealistic game. I think the point there is the experience of not knowing who you can trust, and figuring that out, which does create some tension.
My counter argument is that too much tension leading to toxic douchebags thriving over players who actually give a f*** about other players. To much of this mistrust and game degrades into KOS fest. This makes almost impossible for solo players to interact with others and pursue more interesting and meaningful goals and situations than paranoid running around each other and pointless murders.
If you remember early days of DayZ and how some time since launch players who care less turned servers into KOS zone and you could no longer afford to trust anyone and most interaction come down to killing or avoiding just like in Rust.
There is a scientifically measurable point after a certain percentage of KOS players everyone defaults to that behavior.
I don't know what is right for Rust and the general player base, but I strongly suspect that more order or and more explicit threats and enemies the game will become better by default for almost everyone.
Just go to a PVE server.
That sounds lame AF. And contradicts everything I've said, if I understand correctly what a PvE server is.
Okay, here is a a few scenarios off the top of my head.
Faction: Bad people join good faction and shoot people in the face.
Karma: Bad people shoot good people while farming good karma.
Servers: Killing people on PVP practice servers makes you look bad.
Being a troll: Stealing stuff and then baiting people into losing karma to troll
Automated logic: People have to wait for that naked to shoot you in the face before you can defend yourself, except he keeps coming back.
I mean it's already bad enough trolls are sneaking into the sake zone with eokas and blasting people in the face.
Wow, actual discussion.
Your karma is tied to a server and resets on the server reset. As a new player you are not that dangerous, and as soon as you try to do some bullshit like that, you get enough bad karma to officially become a bad guy.
Your karma is relative to the time you've been on the server. If you are a very new player you only need to do a little killing to make yourself marked as a bad guy.
What? Did you mean bad people shoot bad people to farm Karma? Only way to gain positive karma should be by passively gaining it over time while being active on the server. All other methods I thought of so far are easily abused.
Karma tied to servers not account, good points against account based karma though.
Having you loose karma by taking stolen stuff? Well stolen stuff can be marked as such. You take it - you loose karma, unless it belongs to your friend then it's not marked as stolen for you.
Oh, WELCOME TO MY WORLD! Friendly players basically have to do it this way already. But I see the problem.
Just trolling by being annoying or posing a treat to you is a tough one. I've been thinking about it.
I think the solution could be a challenge system. You issue the challenge or a warning, then after a set time after which the challenge will be on and you will have a right to kill the person and they can kill you. The person issuing the challenge have to stay in the area in order to not being able to chase the challenged player in case if the latter is trying to get away.
The challenge could cost some decaying karma penalty. If you challenge first time in a day it will cost next to nothing then if you challenge another person, it will cost you a little more, over time challenge cost will decay.
It's kinda like Wild West, and I like it, and no KoS bullshit.
Doesn't entirely solve the problem of "they shoot me first" but they only can do it once before loosing their friendly status.
This is a bit clunky, more than I expected a Karma system would have to be. Stolen items marks, challenge or warning system. But doesn't sound that bad.
Looks like these poor nakeds that get bolted when they spawn have had enough and want a change. If KoS really bothers you this much, for love of god join a PvE server and stop whining.
It's not a game of tag, it's a survival game. Adapt to KoS or simply take a break or quit.
I dont know what kind of experience you have had playing the game But it seems to me that Rust is not your type of game or the game you want it to be,
Adapt to the game it is. Its a survival game , kill or be killed its as simple as that, build smart and play smart.
I like many other people have never played Dayz and have no interest in what happen in it, I dont compare or associate this game with any other game I have played , I accept it as it is.
Personally I think the whole subject is a waste of time
No truer words have even been spoken,
I don't disagree. I'm also a gamedev, so I like to think about those systems even just for the sake of it. I still think that there are improvements that can be made to Rust that would make the game generally better, I just don't think we figured out yet what those might be. The thread is for that purpose created.
There have to be more consequences to KoS.
The ideal system would be self-regulated militia type of thing. Reporting people, putting bounty on their head. But I can't think of any system like that that can't be heavily abused.
Having a clan in game that is anti-KoS and will try to create a functioning community and actively go out and hunt down KoS players sounds fun, and maybe that is something that is in the spirit of Rust the most, but there have to be some other ways to make KoS less of a default position.
Why would there be consequences if you KoS, you're in a life or death situation with someone that can be friendly but if the guy kills you he is the survivor and you have lost the game (lost the game=you have died).
Again, "In real life" is not an argument in a game where you respawn out of a sleeping bag when killed.
But my point is hard to defend as well: "There have to be more consequences to KoS."
What I mean is that there probably is a better balance between mindless aggression and order, than it is currently in Rust. And KoS arsholes have an advantage. I argue that there should be a better balance. The question is how can it be found in a way that doesn't seem too contrived.
Maybe a better ally system in the game would help. Some system to have lists of allies and enemies and have an ability to share those lists. So if I make friends with my neighbors, when I encounter some players, I see an indication that that player is an enemy of my ally, and I can take a look at a note of my ally which tells me what that enemy guy did.
This way people will build networks of allies and enemies. It will be easier for friendlies to build communities, cooperate, raid and scavenge together, without necessarily making a clan and a freaking private forum with lists of allies and enemies or playing together all the time. It would help trade knowing who is more trustworthy.
I actually really like this idea. Gonna think about ways it could be implemented.
There should be a better balance, no doubt about it. And I can relate to your using words like "arse" when talking about KOS-ers.
Arguably, all RUST players are bad, or have to be bad to get along. Only some are very much more "bad" than the norm. For those a kind of karma identifier (like a circle above their heads or something, when close enough or when observing them long distance for a while, would not be game breaking. On the contrary, would be conducive to gameplay, bounty hunt, etc.
The difficult part is choosing a karma meter that can't be abused (lightly). Let's say normal Rust is killing 2 guys per hour (on average, idk).
Each hour online your karma depletes 2 kills until you are back to Rust-angelic.
Being a mofo KOS-er, you whack 5 people per hour, so your karma indicator stays in the red.
Or, people you whack can give you bad karma for a cost proportional to their accumulated wealth. A cost big enough to hurt but worth paying in hopes that that KOS-er will get it good from 10 or so bounty hunters.
I posted the Shared reputation system suggestion
I really like that idea. It's a game changer for friendly players or any player that is not a complete sociopath.
It does not impose ANY limitations.
Thank god this is not in the Roadmap
So interesting having discussion with people who seem incapable of making real arguments.
oh, forgot, whacking a bad karma guy not only does not damage your karma but it cleanses it (but only if you've taken a contract for it)
Can't that be abused? Your friend takes a contract on you, kills you, clears his own karma and gets a reward?
I don't like restrictions to my movement, but a karma system would be cool! My idea is to make it subtle, like adding blood to the more aggressive players, or making their eyes angrier, and less aggressive people would have 0 blood splattered around them or really peaceful and mind soothing eyes :v Your karma would drop slowly to peaceful with in game time without killing anyone that hasn't killed anyone either, or something of the sorts.
You won't be able to see your death coming from a distance but it's a fun little quirk to play around, and at least you'll be able to know if someone will betray you :v
@Illinar: KOS-ers do not get down from their high horse and go naked just to die a bunch of times to bring harm to a guy. They just go full auto on him (don't forget in his mind he is top dog). Even so, there are options: not killing him and let him screaming a bit each time, where is he coming from, etc etc.
Also, a KOS-er spending time to do that means not playing pure KOS. ANd that is the point of this karma thing.
If your "friend" takes a contract on you, he is not your friend. That goes without saying. And he clears a bit of his karma, just like killing stains it a bit. He'd have to do it a few times, by which time, the bad karma you can give him will drag him down again.
And, from a dev point of view, paying for negative karma points is another way to encourage gameplay (go hit rocks, scavenge for materials for more)
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