Glad there's more and more data to this, in fact this article has a lot of data which is super nice to see.
The gender pay-gap can't close soon enough.
An interesting tidbit:
"We did, however, find intriguing differences across age groups. The younger women in the labor market appear statistically indistinguishable — even in “getting” — from the younger men. Hence it could be that negotiating behavior through the years has begun to change. Future research may be able to decide whether true changes are going on in the modern labor market. Perhaps the world really is beginning to transform."
I always found the excuse that women just don't ask for raises enough to be ridiculous
I think more progressive overall social awareness and the younger generation a lot less vocal and active about it is a big contributor.
It's more that they aren't as willing to follow through. Meekly asking isn't the same as making a solid argument.
You don't go cap in hand, you go in and prove your value to your employer.
where are you seeing that women are meekly seeking / failing to follow through?
I agree with your statement but believing that this is how all women in the workplace go about it shows a lot about your perspective on women.
Why, exactly? Within liberal circles there's a sense that men overvalue their input and always talk over people, is it ridiculous to think that perhaps that carried over into their valuation of their own work? I don't have academic level knowledge about the pay gap, but from just a little bit of social stereotyping it's pretty easy to find a way for it to make sense. So out of curiosity, what's the reason you've always found it ridiculous?
I found it ridiculous as being said to be the ONLY reason more specifically. I just don't see that it would make that much of a difference on it's own
I certainly don't mean to say "all", but there's a significant trend.
A lot of women are more willing to accept excuses or a small pay rise (essentially bait) even when they are meeting their targets and have been a committed long term employee.
I have a very mixed LGBT friends group, and we're all of the age when we're moving up through various organisations.
The women in our group get consistently undervalued, so we've talked about it a lot.
Two things leap out at me from the article.
Women who asked obtained a raise 15% of the time, while men obtained a
pay increase 20% of the time. While that may sound like a modest
difference, over a lifetime it really adds up.
When there is no explicit statement that wages are negotiable, females
are more likely than males to signal their willingness to work for a
lower wage rate. One earlier study in Great Britain
(McGovern et al., 2007) also fails to find evidence to favor a
women-don’t-ask view. However, they were unable to control for a number
of important factors including hours worked or firm size, variables that
we were able to include in our study.
It's also good to note that they when they say "women who asked obtained a raise 15% of the time," they mean women who said they had asked at some point got a raise at some point, they don't mean they got a raise 15% of the time every time they asked.
They clarify in the conclusion that they didn't have any data on how often, or how early in their career, they asked.
Willingness to ask is not the only thing. Individual input also matters. Hours worked, effort and personal sacrifice made to aid the employer etc. No crazy sacrifices, just simple willingness and readiness to pull extra shifts/overtime, take on extra responsibilities, basically to go above and beyond merely what is expected of you by the employer. This is obviously mostly done by these men precisely in the hopes of advancing themselves in these hierarchies, so it's not like there's benevolent self sacrifice for some greater good behind this or anything - that's just stupid.
From personal experience, a good few of the female friends I have have complained about feeling deprived of opportunities for vertical development at their workplaces, all the while they've been pulling all possible vacation slots/off days possible to travel, rest and stay away from work, admit to actively avoiding overtime, and partaking in seminars/extra schooling only when it's made mandatory. Meanwhile there always seems to be that one guy or girl at a company that advances consistently and lo and behold, they seem to be present in every meeting, every event. And perhaps there are also a handful of the same kinds of people who have not advanced? Not everyone gets to the top, after all.
And look, I get it. I think that's actually super reasonable, because you don't really owe your employer anything outside of what is outlined in the contract. You shouldn't have to sacrifice personal time, opportunities to rest, play and connect with people, time with your family etc to please some corporate fucks, but let's get real. That's how the professional landscape works. To ask women why they're not breaking their backs to break into the upper layers of the hierarchy seems misguided. You should probably think to ask why are there so many men willing to burn themselves out in pursuit of a chance at going ever higher. Is the time and effort worth it? Sometimes it is, and it pays well. But it's a shitty, grueling grind that takes years of your time, if not years off your life due to stress and exhaustion.
You could not be more patently sexist if you tried.
Why? There were some studies that pointed to that conclusion.
Call it what you like.
This is, obviously, a generalisation. Generalisations don't apply to every single person in the world, nor to every situation - In my opinion gender roles haven't quite caught up yet. Women as a gender are expected now to compete on an equal footing, but they are still finding their feet in that regard, and they aren't used to the idea that their labour and their opinions are just as valuable in the work place as everyone else's, and they undervalue themselves and don't fight as hard as they should. Old habits die hard, especially with the echo of generations. Change happens slowly.
I feel society is lagging behind, not that women are incapable.
Move that goalpost.
Research confirms what feminists have been denouncing for decades
Biggest "no shit sherlock" of the week so far.
My dad always told me a story from when he was a manager.
He had two employees, and both were actually really smart and hard workers. One was a woman with a family, and the other was a single guy.
The single guy could always come in on time because he didn't have anything to worry about, and always work extra hours. The woman would come in late because she had to make sure her kids were ready for school, and could rarely work late again because of that same family.
When it's time for performance reviews and you can only hand out so many raises, who do you give the raise to? The dude who came in on time every day and was putting added value into the company by working late when asked, or the woman who could probably use the money but didn't come in on time and couldn't put that extra value into the company?
He always called it a really tough call, and is part of why he hated being a manager. He eventually stepped down to become a normal employee.
I don't really know how this is related, it isn't really, but for some reason this thread just reminded me of this anecdote. I'm not making a point about women always being mothers or anything.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
