Toronto Votes For A Total Ban On Handgun Sales After Mass Shooting
140 replies, posted
https://www.huffingtonpost.in/entry/toronto-mayor-mass-shooting_us_5b58baf8e4b0de86f492c8bb
Good. Guns have no place in societies. I hope it goes to other cities as well. I'm glad to be living in a city and country free from gun crime.
Just typed a long winded post about the American culture/past, gun crime, handgun crime, and how it takes up the majority of gun related violence.
Then realized that Toronto is in Canada Midway through typing. Hopefully it's dealt with in a different way, I don't agree that outlawing guns outright is a good idea considering it does nothing to prevent people to just go but one illegally or make one.
In Singapore I could see how it would be a good idea, but it just serves to prevent people from buying guns to protect themselves. The gun the shooter had already was confirmed to be an illegally obtained gun from the US, so outlawing it in Toronto would have done nothing to prevent this.
Banning sales will not stop gun crime permanently.
Handgun defenders are the most ridiculous people. Handguns are 100% unnecessary, their only benefit is concealment, and that really doesn't speak well to the intent of the individual owning one. If you want to hunt, bigger guns are a virtual necessity, not just from effectiveness, but also from a moral standpoint(handguns would have to be rather well placed to kill in one shot).
In terms of self-defence, a shotgun would instill far more fear, and gives the user far more leeway in regards to aim(given the nerves involved in a self-defence situation), than a pistol would. Handguns have no place in the hands of civilians, and especially not in our country.
idk about you but the average joe doesn't exactly have black market or gang connections. Makes it a bit harder to get your hands on something if the only people who sell it probably don't want to be found easily.
And making guns is just way too much effort for the average joe. Sure, a bit of pipe and a nail will vaguely do the job, but it's not going to be as efficient at the job as a precision manufactured Bushmaster Cockextension-5000™ or whatever. Making a Sten or Luty is way more involved than the average spur of the moment criminal is going to want to deal with.
In the States cross state borders kinda breaks a lot of gun restriction legislation, sure you may not be able to legally buy the gun as a non-resident. And bringing it back over to your state will still be illegal, but it does mean you probably wont need to find some shady motherfucker in a back alley to buy the gun any more. Just an under the table private trade.
You shouldn't really talk about things you know nothing about. Just sayin
Toronto has seen a wave of gun violence this summer, mostly gang-related, targeted attacks. This latest incident feels like the first time a while that there's been a shooting that targeted civilians.
Being a resident of Toronto, I don't really see the point in this 'ban'. Canada already has strict laws governing the purchase and transport of (restricted) firearms, and banning them from the city is not going to make one iota of difference. The scum who use firearms illegally will continue to do so, they'll just get their guns from elsewhere in the province, or carry them over the border from the US like this recent attacker.
Good to know that you're senselessly attacking guns instead of the underlying problems with society that cause gun crime.
Why do that when you could just pass another round of feelgood legislation that nets you a bunch of political brownie points and lets you declare the problem solved then forget about it forever? It's working out just great in the US, I highly recommend it
Oh look, it's another one of those threads where everybody who isn't American is wrong.
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ok buddy
Because banning guns will solve the problem instead of tackling the reason people use guns to kill people in the first place. I hope this vote doesn't give the place where I live any ideas.
Given how many ideologically motivated mass shootings we've had lately and how poverty is directly correlated with higher levels of violent crime don't you think maybe there's at least a little something to the perspective that there's a little more to the problem than just 'people can buy guns' ?
Given how many mass shooters were reported to the authorities well before their shootings by people concerned that they were going to do exactly what they did and nothing was done don't you think maybe there's at least just the tiniest bit of a possibility that it's a more nuanced issue than 'they could buy guns' ?
Like isn't it at least just a little bit worthwhile to consider that maybe it's a problem much broader in scale than just the very presence of guns?
I've already gone down this road before, though, so I'll just link that post instead of making a whole new one
Everything you said in this post is 100% inaccurate.
First: Concealment is a factor, but to say that is a giveaway for intent is unfounded and irrational. CCW permit holders are among the most law abiding of any population.
Second: The notion that bigger guns are necessary in hunting because of humane reasons is only partially true in that there is an advantage to the hunter if they use a powerful caliber from hundreds of feet away. However, this argument falls flat when you consider that shot placement is the #1 factor in determining a humane kill, regardless of the type of gun used or the caliber. This is true because people have been hunting with bows for millennia, and bowhunting has seen a resurgence in modern times because it provides more of a challenge. You have to be closer, and your aim has to be better. It also entirely depends on what you're hunting. People have been hunting with .44 magnum revolvers for many years. Essentially, this argument boils down to preference and convenience and has no place in debating the merits of self-preservation.
Third: A shotgun is not inherently more viable in a self-defense situation. Since you already disregarded the idea of concealment, allow me to bring it up again. Concealing a hangun is far more viable in day-to-day out and about life as a means to be prepared than carrying a shotgun around. Your argument that shotguns allow people to operate more efficiently under nerves than handguns is also unfounded.
Fourth: Handguns do have a place in the hands of law-abiding civilians. They are an equalizer for those who cannot defend themselves physically. If you go to a shooting range, you will find women, especially elderly ones, practicing shots because they know they cannot fend off an attack with their hands.
Did you even read my post? I literally said 'there are obviously a lot of factors for gun violence.'
To add to the CCW permit holder part, the background checks and training like that is ridiculously thorough. For starters you need to have an absolutely spotless criminal record to be even considered for one.
It really isn't about putting new laws on the books.
It's about actually using the ones that exist as they fucking are and enforcing them and tweaking them
The issue is that a lot of countries with high gun control have it as a result of high crime caused by separate factors in the first place. When looking at countries with sophisticated police forces who actually have the resources to deal with illegal gun ownership, I find it hard to believe the trends would be as shown in your images.
We can fix societal problems.
We can reduce gun crime.
It's not our job to solve or cater to your national delusion.
Your societal issues are complex like a personality disorder.
You also follow that up immediately afterwards by crediting strict laws with low violence and the way that's followed up by
"I know everyone will disagree with me"
With the opening of the post being
"Oh look, it's another one of those threads where everybody who isn't American is wrong..."
Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but those pieces of the post don't exactly give the impression that the cultural, economic, societal, and systemic failures are the direction subsequent posts are going to go. Though I suppose that could just as much be credited with my being repeatedly pigeonholed and developing some kneejerk responses that need worked on, so it could be on me
Legally owning firearms does not cause gun crime, look at UK
Actually, about that...
"The results of these tests suggest that the NFA did
not have any large effects on reducing firearm homicide or suicide rates."
https://melbourneinstitute.unimelb.edu.au/downloads/working_paper_series/wp2008n17.pdf
"[...]does not find support for the hypothesis that Australia’s prohibition of certain types of firearms has prevented mass shootings, with New Zealand not experiencing a mass shooting since 1997 despite the availability in that country of firearms banned in Australia."
https://poseidon01.ssrn.com/delivery.php?ID=504031005120107023127087095122027119016062042032042036011083029094029074070071074124118119019036058121033120003091064090101121028072094051081021118092081078004101011034008030105083122068012114109122099099116066069098114027105064117121087003089112106113&EXT=pdf
And if you don't feel like reading research papers: https://www.quora.com/If-gun-laws-dont-prevent-violence-why-is-Australias-gun-violence-rate-so-low-since-they-banned-guns/answer/Anthony-Zarrella?share=06fd12ea&srid=x9Yb
The gun was purchased illegally, smuggled in from the US. So what do we do about it? Attack law abiding gun owners.
I'm fucking tired of being the scapegoat, being called a murderer and being told I support the death of children every time there's a shooting simply because I own a gun. None of Canada's 2.1 million licensed gun owners had anything to do with this shooting, and blaming us for it is just as offensive as the people blaming Islam for it because he was Muslim.
And thankfully, the city doesn't have the authority to actually enforce thos asinine bullshit.
That is informative, thank you.
I must admit that I really shouldn't have come into the thread so hot-headed, but it's one of those issues where I constantly find myself rated into oblivion for even minor criticism, so I've become hypersensitive to it when I realise that's just silly. The gun issue is feverishly complex and I obviously have no right to tell Americans what they should do. Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to tell Americans what to do, but I can understand that you guys are in the same boat on this and probably see me similarly to how I do you.
The problem with the gun control debate is that it involves a multitude of factors that are hard to control for and is linked with many deaths in the media - it's a recipe for a polarising topic and it's difficult to debate the issue effectively.
The more interesting question is whether countries with strong gun regulation always have a low rate of gun homicide.
Because let's face it, between the simple act of banning guns, and the immeasurably complex and nebulous task of "fixing society", lawmakers will always pick the former if it guarantees to solve the problem, people's freedoms be damned.
Toronto's only gun shop that sells handguns is still selling handguns.
Then why compare a country of 30m with a country of 325 million?
An observation that I've made on these forums is that those who readily point out the statistics to show that gun control and the amount of guns has no correlation (let alone causation) on gun-related homicides (including mass shootings) also readily suggest better mental health options as a way of curbing the number of deaths. However, I would argue that the link between mental health and murder and/or mass shootings is even more tenuous. Countries with high rates of mental illness do not necessarily have higher rates of gun-related homicides. Populations with higher rates of mental illness do not produce more gun-toting murderers.
It's not wrong to say that we should we try to solve the issue at the source of the problem but maybe America's gun culture is partly responsible for the problem. Where else in the world is it not only accepted by the average civilian but more-or-less enshrined into law that shooting a person who's threatening you is the go-to response?
"Says the man living in a city reeling from a mass shooting"
Lol I always get a kick out of guys like this.
Have you ever considered that maybe the reason you get bombed is because youre talking out of your ass? Maybe learn a bit about the issue before you present a baseless emotional opinion.
Can you put the countries on the "high firearm homicie rates" graph on the other graphs? It seems misleading to me to have three separate graphs that are visually similar instead of one, more easily comparable and comprehensive representation.
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