I imagine most Americans don't even know what socialism is except it's supposed to be bad because communism and stuff.
Ignorance is blissful.
Many Americans who supposedly support socialism probably don’t even know what socialism is either. Eg everyone who supported Bernie on the basis that he was a self-proclaimed socialist, despite him not actually being one. To them, they think that socialism is about things like universal healthcare and increasing taxes on corporations, although of course that’s not what socialism is actually about at all.
How do you reconcile this with the fact that Bernie Sanders is one of the post popular politicians in the country?
The duality of man.
That's because Sanders never once claimed to be a socialist. He claimed to be a Democratic socialist, which is exactly what you just described. A well-regulated economy, universal healthcare, and good social services.
As the article states:
Although Sanders remains highly popular among Democratic voters (and Americans generally), in the American Barometer survey, 64 percent of Democratic respondents said they would not vote for a "socialist." Among respondents who said they voted for Hillary Clinton in the 2016 general election, 59 percent said they would not support a self-described socialist.
"Socialist" is just a dirty word in the eyes of many. Green eggs and ham.
Sanders sucks at economics but that doesn't make him a socialist.
Russia helped him
Nah, I mean while true I don't attribute it that much to his success. It helps that Bernie actually believed the things coming out of his mouth. I think a lot of Americans living in the rust belt (IE those evil white males who got Donald "Literally Hitler" Trump elected) see through a lot of politicians as being little more then talking heads but with Trump and Bernie, I mean they actually sound like they mean what they say, and might even give a shit about their fly-over states
Bernie would have buried Trump in the election, btw.
The survey was conducted online in the U.S. between July 21-22 by HarrisX, among a randomly selected sample of 1,001 American voters.
I going to expected they taking from /pol/ side of 4chan for credibility and disguised it as random online users.
Bernie should have buried everyone. An alternative reality is having a much better time. Please don't make the same mistake if he runs again.
My point is more that Sanders is a self labeled democratic socialist but again, is massively popular.
Maybe this poll is asking the wrong question and the majority of Americans would totally vote for a Democratic Socialist, just not a socialist
I'd blame the DNC for not selecting Bernie as their candidate, personally.
A democratic socialist is a socialist. Just like but nonetheless distinct from other socialists, eg those who believe Marxism-Leninism is the way to go. The common factor between the two is that they both believe in public ownership of the means of production; the core definition of socialism. So if Bernie claimed to be a democratic socialist, then yes, I was correct in my assertion that Bernie was a self-proclaimed socialist.
And in response the last sentence, you just described social democracy, not democratic socialism. And yes, there is a difference between the two (the former relates to liberal democracies, the latter relates to socialism).
Hate to pull a gotcha, but you ironically proved my point I made in my first post.
Also I want to point out that Hill is a crappy source and I can't really see this poll's methodology. So take this entire thread with a grain of salt.
Isn't that called a social democrat everywhere else in the world?
The reason is people don't understand political labels and it's beyond frustrating that it's all people talk about instead of the issues themselves.
Bernie Sanders and AOC are not dictionary definition socialists because they don't call for a post-capitalist economy that's communally owned. Their specific policy ideas however are wildly popular and that's what people need to focus on.
Might as well privative the fire department because why should I pay for your inability to not burn your house down? Only reckless people benefit from socialized fire departments. Learn to be more responsible!
I'm fairly left wing myself - I think utilities, healthcare and public transport (to a degree) should be nationalised (with private companies having the ability to compete if they so wish) along with heavy regulation and welfare (a BUI at a low level to avoid people starving and cut bureaucracy from traditional welfare) for peeps. Companies should be taxed where they made the profit (to avoid HQ in tax haven loopholes) and taxes supplemented with LVT.
I hesitate to describe myself as a socialist, because people tend to jump to the USSR style socialism and I sorta wanna distance myself from the more radical political peeps. I spose technically it is socialism but it's such a wide variety of different political views it's almost a meaningless statement. Like how in capitalism Kaynesians and Neolibs are fundamentally different but are often grouped together.
I think there is stuff to be learnt from across the spectrum like Marx's theories of alienation (industrialisation + capitalism is bad for workers), private industry helping mitigate for risks (if a company fails its not too big an issue because there is competition can step in) but I disagree quite heavily with the radical free market stuff which seems to be dominating at the moment.
pretty much how Bernie worked out followed by "Well how do we pay for all that?" which seems pretty irrelevant because said people are usually fine with hoaxy math and tax cuts that drain our state of funds anyways.
it's hilarious watching the conservative establishment flounder against people like cortez and el sayed. we've actually got people with nothing left in them but to show their political ignorance and scream VENEZUELA or outright try to argue with the ideas. which looks something like this
https://i.imgur.com/1Mkr504.png
"I saw how easy it would be, as a parent, to accept the idea that my children deserve healthcare and education"
whatisthisidonteven
There's conservativism and then there's this.
2 questions
1. Is tudd up to his nonsense again?
2. What's the difference between a democratic socialist and a socialist?
Social democracy is a political, social and economic ideology that supports economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal democratic polity and capitalist economy. The protocols and norms used to accomplish this involve a commitment to representative and participatory democracy; measures for income redistribution and regulation of the economy in the general interest; and welfare state provisions.[1][2][3] Social democracy thus aims to create the conditions for capitalism to lead to greater democratic, egalitarian and solidaristic outcomes.[4] Due to longstanding governance by Social Democratic parties and their influence on socioeconomic policy development in the Nordic countries, in policy circles "social democracy" has become associated with the Nordic model in the latter part of the 20th century.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy
Bud, the mere fact that you think the free market should exist at all, let alone be allowed to compete with government owned services, means you're not a socialist by most definitions. So you don't need to use that label at all - just use social democrat, and people will know where you stand. I'm pretty much where you are, and that's the label I've chosen - because I don't want to be confused with the people who want to seize the means of production in its entirety.
I always thought that's what socialism was, and anything beyond that such as Venezuela controlling all oil production etc. was closer to communism or Marxism. Maybe I'm just getting confused.
what Cortez and those like her are proposing is a more Social Democratic state. This *isn't* Socialism. Democratic Socialism IS Socialism, and to be honest I'm not entirely sure as to the 'true' ideological differences between Socialism and Dem Soc. The word 'democratic' is usually tacked on to differentiate Democratic Socialists from Marxist-Leninists and Stalinists, and to make clear their rejection of Authoritarianism.
Americans have a weird habit of calling Social Democrats Democratic Socialists though, so there is a lot of confusion.
This is my stance also. I always thought that was straight up socialism, not democratic socialism. The free market is fantastic for innovation and completion (barring monopolies), not so much for healthcare, education and public services.
So now I'm having trouble understanding the difference between socialism and communism...
Snipped my reply because of the confusion between Social Democracy and Democratic Socialism.
But as Crumpet and wikipedia points out, both fall under the broad definition of Socialism and are later offshoots of the ideology.
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