An attempt at my own personal TF2 mega-balance patch: Scout

[Racist Gamer Man]

Hey!

So I know barely anybody that I'd be interested in discussing balance with isn't here anymore, but this and reddit are the only two places where I feel I could get actual players that are competent with balance decisions to criticize my ideas and discuss with me.

Primary goals with balance changes?

A big problem with the game currently – or, morenspecifically, weapons – is that they focus too much on gimmicks or just
odd changes that don’t mesh with the fantasy the weapons aim to give players.
My focus is streamlining these issues. Additionally, some classes can prove to
be a bit overbearing (Sniper) or underwhelming (Pyro) at various different
levels of play, and ideally, these changes will bring them more in-line with
the other classes.

These changes are purely theorycrafting, and the ideal situation would be they're released, and for the next two months a close eye is kept on match/player/class balance, with smaller changes being made weekly if necessary.

I've only done changes to Scout weapons, if there's interest, I'll definitely continue with the other classes (Sniper is pretty much already done). I've also considered just narrating my changes and discussing why I see these changes as ideal for my "perfect' version of TF2.

Scout

Primaries

 The Shortstop

o  The Shortstop isn’t a bad weapon by any means, but it has superfluous features
which handicaps its potential for buffs. So, predictably, the shove and
increased knockback is gone.

o  Mouse2 Shove has been removed; Increase in push force removed

o  Reload speed increased by ~33% (Reloads in ~1 second from 1.52)

Soda Popper

o   The Soda Popper has had balancing problems because its gimmick has been
very hard to keep from being too powerful. Unlike the F-a-N, it doesn’t have a
clear direction for what it wants to give players – multiple jumps on one of
the already most mobile classes in the game can tend to be…unnecessary at best,
cumbersome at worst, except in rare situations. The Force-a-Nature already
covers this idea with its knockback effect, and to a greater and more creative
degree, so the focus will instead be on making the Soda Popper a unique
alternative, focused more on quick popping than big damage.

o  Reload speed now same speed as Force-a-Nature

o   Hype Meter now grants 50% bonus reload
speed upon activation (reloads in ~1 sec from 1.5)

3lb Trigger (formally Back Scatter)

o   Back Scatter is a weapon that gives Scout bonuses trending him more
towards the side of assassin. However, he already accomplishes this goal with
his close-range weapons, being able to kill most classes in ~3 seconds,
assuming they don’t have overheal. To give it a gimmick more fitting its visual
design, we’re giving it a bit more firing rate and a bit larger magazine size
than the stock Scattergun.

o   Stats reverted

o   Name reverted to original workshop
name – 3lb Trigger

o  +30% magazine size (now 8 bullets in clip)

o  +10% firing rate (now ~.54 sec firing rate from .76)

o  -15% damage (~75-80 damage from point blank range)

Secondaries

All Consumables (Bonk!, C-a-C, Mad Milk, Flying Guillotine, balls from Sandman/Wrap Assassin)

o   Consumables caused a trend away from the original “Map awareness and
decision-making” functions of having ammo counts to more sporadic and chaotic
gameplay, due to being restored from cooldowns, which could be seen as a
holdover from more arena-based games. Due to this, weapons being designed with
large amounts of ammo pools, and general map design, large ammo boxes have
become nothing but metal sources for Engineers. Players should feel like their
decisions made with these weapons are important, yet usually, they just throw
them out whenever they get a chance, lessening their impact, versatility, and
over-all sense of balance because they can be used so freely. This change wants
to emphasize importance in decision-making and encourage users to be mindful of
not only when they use the weapons, but where the large ammo boxes are.

o   Consumables now have 1 charge, do not recharge, and can only be restocked by touching a resupply cabinet or picking
up a large ammo box.

o   Consumables have a 5-second grace period between uses (to prevent running over a large ammo box right after use
and immediately having the weapon again)

Bonk! Atomic Punch

o   As a residual from the consumable change, we’re easing up the downsides
of these weapons to see where they fall on the balance spectrum, whether the
change was too much, too little, or just right. Expect quick changes when
necessary.

o  
Consumption noise is
now 300% as loud

o  Player is no longer slowed from damage taken after use

o  Effect now lasts 6 seconds

o  Knockback now only affects the player if they jump while under use

 Crit-a-Cola

o   Crit-a-Cola was a hard weapon to balance because of its potential abuse
from having a recharge function. Now that the chains are loosened, we can have
more freedom with how it works and try and make it a bit more appealing as an
item.

o  Consumption noise is now 300% as loud

o   Player now can jump a third time while under the effects of C-A-C

o  The effect now lasts 6 seconds

o  Marked for Death is consistent instead of only applying when the user attacks

Mad Milk

o   Mad Milk is a tricky item. It gives Scout unprecedented utility, wildly
swinging fights in his team’s favour because of its potency when used on large
clusters of enemies. A Mad Milk nerf is still necessary, even with the
consumable change, we feel. However, where there’s punishment, there’s
opportunity, and Scout has always been somewhat lacking in dealing with
Engineers, so we’re adding a bonus to give Scouts a more utility-based edge.

o  Now only restores 40% of damage dealt to attacking player’s health

o  Now can only coat a
maximum of 4 enemies

o  Can now also coat enemy buildings (does not count towards the 4 coating maximum)

Melee

Sandman

o   Sandman has also been controversial due to its stun mechanics,
effectively rendering players unable to combat aggressing Scouts due to being
hit by a tiny, hard to see, and almost uncounterable projectile. As a result,
we’re tweaking its function to serve more as a combo-weapon and less as a free
stun/slow for the Scout using it.

o  No longer removes 15 health

o   Hitting an enemy with the baseball now deals slight damage (25) and marks them with a distinct graphic, for anywhere
from 5 to 30 seconds. If the Scout in question can hit them with another
consumable (Guillotine) or a melee attack while marked, he will knock them back
a fair distance (twice as far as a Pyro’s airblast). If the hit is a melee hit,
it will also stun the enemy, much like hitting them with a max range ball, and
the hit will deal critical damage.

Sun-on-a-Stick

o   This weapon sees barely any use, and it’s not hard to figure out why.
It’s very gimmick-y, focusing on working with a Pyro to get a minor boost in
damage that doesn’t offer enough bonuses to be worth over just using your
primary or secondary. We’re shifting it to be a weapon more fitting of the
title “Sun-on-a-Stick”.

o  No longer guarantees critical hits on burning targets

o  While equipped in your loadout, Sun-on-a-Stick will now grant
charge from damage taken, requiring approximately 150 damage taken to reach max
charge. The next attack that hits with the weapon will deplete its charge,
dealing extra damage. At max damage, the next hit will also ignite enemies for
5 seconds.

o   Base Damage – 26

o   Max damage bonus from charge – 70

Fan o’ War

The Fan o’War is not a weapon in as much of a need for balancing as
other Scout weapon, but we feel it could still use a bit tweaking to be seen as
more than a joke weapon.

o  Mark now only lasts
for 7 seconds

o  Mark increases in (visual) size and
duration with consecutive hits (up to original duration of 15 seconds at 3
hits)

o  Deals 50% damage (from 25%)

The Atomizer

Atomizer’s a unique Scout melee, in that it’s the only truly utility
melee weapon he has. It saw prevalent use before due to the Scout’s other
melees being comparably weak at best, but we feel that now that the Scout has a
bit more versatility in his viable melee choices, giving it a little touch-up
won’t hurt. Instead of making it clunkier to use, we’re taking it in a more
original Soda Popper/Crit-a-Cola direction of a glass cannon with insane
mobility.

o  No longer deploys slower

o  Now takes away 15 health 

[Hell-met]

Shorstop's reload was nerfed to keep it in check when used by outrageously good scouts. it can't be put back

that backscatter seems really boring and even less of a niche

that critcola is basically the atomizer in a can?

making all edibles only once-per-life is a sure way to basically remove them from the game because no one will use them

your sandman is a straight upgrade to the bat

[Racist Gamer Man]

Shortstop reasoning is fine but would it be underwhelming without any buffs after the push and knockback are removed? Or would it be okay?

Backscatter/3 Lb Trigger is tricky because without the Spy-lite gimmick it's hard to give it a gimmick a weapon the Scout has doesn't already have. Can't do long-range accurate but weak gun, Shortstop exists. Can't do high ammo quick bursts, Soda Popper exists.

Crit-a-Cola isn't Atomizer in a can because you still get the mini-crits

The important part to remember when thinking about my proposed one-use system for edibles/consumables is just how frequent resupply cabinets and large ammo crates are. If you know where a crate is or you're at spawn, you'll instantly get the item back (I'm contemplating keeping the lengthy 24-sec CD even if you get the large ammo crate to prevent this weird shifts in power depending on map layout where you can either have consumables up every few seconds or never have them up). Even then, consumables are still insanely powerful (just look at Mad Milk, Cleaver, Jarate, and Sandvich).

I actually forgot about downsides to Sandman. Thank you for pointing that out

[Kitt Stargazer]

This isn't really directed towards the sandman, as much as it's a question towards mentioning direct upgrades towards melee options.
How much use to Scouts get out of the stock bat? For me I pretty much never use it... Under that situation, couldn't it be argued that any weapon that actually gets use in the melee slot be considered a direct upgrade at that point? Even if it had a colossal amount of negative attributes associated with it.

[fodderstompf]

Holy fugk that Sandman buff.
Contrary to popular belief, it isn't hard at all to hit most classes with projectiles. It takes a bit of practice, sure, but you'll get used to it quickly. If that stat were to actually be implemented, slower classes (Soldier,Demo,Heavy etc) would get raped every game because Scout will just hit them twice, not only launching them across the map, but stunning them as well. They'll also be down to half their usual health due to the CRIT DAMAGE received from the second hit. That Sandman proposal is just erroneous, and should be deleted from existence.

I still don't understand why people are still bickering about rebalances. The problem with rebalances is that they're rendered sclerotic come a new weapon, thus perpetuating these idiotic debates indefinitely. We would be able to solve ALL of these problems if we just came together and deleted pyro

But seriously, the only way we'd really be able to make balance changes last is if we allowed Valve to cease updating the game and leave us for dead.

[Racist Gamer Man]

The crit damage only applies if hit by a melee hit. Guillotine would just be the knockback and stun (duration would probably be shorter than max hit duration). "Delete this suggestion from existence" is hardly an actual constructive critique. You also have to consider that a Scout would only one ball unless he goes out of his way to look for a large ammo crate.

I still don't understand why people are still bickering about rebalances. The problem with rebalances is that they're rendered sclerotic come a new weapon, thus perpetuating these idiotic debates indefinitely. We would be able to solve ALL of these problems if we just came together and deleted pyro

If you don't care about rebalances then go somewhere else. This is a thread I made solely for discussing whether my ideas are actually worth consideration or flawed, not MUS discussion about balance being slow no. #45.

Also, sclerotic relates to eyes and bones, I don't know why you're saying it as if it can relate to the idea of balance being weird should a new weapon come out (which isn't true at all, or weapon balancing would have always been as batshit whenever a new weapon came out). Balancing most certainly does not become rigid just because a new weapon is added. That's fundamentally misunderstanding why weapons are added in the first place - to encourage more diversity and to offer more options for players in minute-to-minute gameplay.

[Hell-met]

planning to post 8 more threads for the others?

[Racist Gamer Man]

Replying from mobile, i'll respond to QBE in a few hours

Nah, Scout is one of the classes with the most changes and i wanted to see if there was interest in my ideas. Chances are i'd make 2 more threads, 3 max, and they'd have a few days of a gap between them so i can get as much feedback as possible.

[Racist Gamer Man]

Can't really say I disagree with the primary weapons though, most of the changes seem reasonable, in fact impressed you didn't suggest changes for the Force-A-Nature as people seem highly critical of the weapon.

I'm of the opinion that just because something is annoying to play against, doesn't necessarily mean it should be changed.

Granted I've not played TF2 in a while but I still think I have enough experience to maybe at least offer some insight. The Bonk! Drink seems to a bit overpowered without any knockback, allowing for 6 seconds of absolute immunity. The idea with the knockback (I thought) is that you can't just have like 5 or 6 scouts running from, say, one edge of Dustbowl C to the other and then cap the point (being basically unstopable beacuse, unless they jumped, they couldn't be kicked back to spawn).

If the knockback thing is too powerful, I'll definitely consider just scrapping it.

Also, I don't the understand the point of making the drinking noise 300% louder because, if you drink it you're already planning on either taking damage (or rather, avoiding damage but being the center of attention, otherwise what's the point?) or dealing out higher amounts of damage, in which case you'd want to be near enemies since the period in which you can maximize damage is already pretty short (6 seconds).

To alert enemies that a consumption-using Scout is nearby. However, I'll considered scrapping that as well. I might've overdone the drinks a bit.

As for CAC, I don't really have much to say. The only real notable change is adding the ability to jump a third time, which, ok, that's fine, adds mobility for a scout with an increased damage, at the expense of received more damage (I've personally never found this weapon too useful, as it turns an already fragile class into basically a glass-cannon, but that's fine, just personal preference here). Hell, I think the ability to jump a third time is a buff if anything, even with the absurd change of not being able to recharge consumables with any other ammo boxes that are not large ammo boxes.

Yeah, that's the main idea, give it a bit of a buff so it isn't as suicidal to use in coordinated environments. Buffalo Steak Sandvich has the same problem, albeit exasperated on non-Degroot Keep maps.

Don't get me wrong, I don't find anything wrong with the consumables not recharing. In fact, I kind of agree with it, on some level. BUT! I do think that any ammo box (ok, maybe small boxes not) should be able to bring back consumables, as having an almost one-life use weapon is kinda...not good. A class like scout needs to be self-sustainable enough that they can be far away from their base for a while, whilst being able to dish out some damage to the enemies. By making consumables a one-time use, then recharge in Large Ammo Boxes / Resupply Cabinet, you've now effectly made it so it becomes a last resource weapon, which is ok for drinks like the Crit-A-Cola or Bonk! Atomic Punch, but terrible for weapons like Mad Milk, which are made for getting out of a bad situation, or the Guilletone which is useful for taking care of classes with higher HP. Now, in actuality, most scouts have an estimate lifespan of...30 seconds?
So this wouldn't be terrible in the end but I'm not sure I agree with this change either.

The problem I see with allowing any ammo box to restore them is just how frequently they can have their consumables up. I'd consider maybe changing it so that picking up smaller ammo boxes act like a cooldown, where you need X small boxes, Y medium boxes, or 1 Large ammo box to get the item again, but you have to keep in mind just how frequent ammo boxes are, and how much trouble it could cause Engineers if all their Scouts are launching consumables as they please and stealing all their metal to have it back up again.

Sandman is another weapon that's pretty much fine and you're tinkering with. Not removing health is fine, honestly, there's very few weapons that dealt that 15 damage that'd make the difference between life or death (although it is kinda stressful to have almost only 100 HP), but the sandman baseball is kinda what leaves me a bit confused, if you will. The idea of marking them, and the ball dealing more damage is fine in itself, but I don't think there's any sense in the second part, with the increased knockback from projectiles or anything, since if you're a scout you're gonna take the chance of seeing a stunned enemy to kill him, which is why the Force-A-Nature has such a brutally high damage upclose, you would stun enemies from afar, run up to them and then fucking blast them to the moon with the FaN.
Upon re-reading the last bit of the Sandman, it seems like you'd have it so the first ball would only deal damage, while subsequent projectiles would stun. This isn't so bad, but because of the "1 projectile per-life, expection Large Ammo Box/Resupply Cabinet", it basically gives the scout one-shot at stunning an enemy. You could say "well, the ability to stun enemies is an overpowered one!" but then I'd answer "which is why you get an health debuff and originally removed the double jump" (since then they've readded it which I don't entirely agree with, as it retains scout's great mobility + ability to stun with a basically minute downside).

I'd dispute the claim that Sandman is an okay weapon. Considering how easy players say consumables like the ball are to hit (and the fact that they have a 24 second CD, which is instantly restored if you pick the ball up again), only giving up 10 health is a pittance for constant slows and damage. Chances are, if it wasn't for my proposed consumable change, I'd nerf the Sandman even harder and nerf the Wrap Assassin while I'm at it, they're too consistent compared to any other Scout melee and too hard to play around (only a Pyro can really do anything about the projectiles, and even then the timing is hard since they travel so fast), and my aim is to give Scout more viable choices for melee weapons outside of Atomizer and the two.

I can definitely consider removing the Cleaver stunning (I only added it because A. Cleaver/Sandman is a very popular Scout item combo due to their synergy, same with Cleaver/Wrap and B. because I forgot it's the only non-Melee projectile consumable Scout has), But I think the trade-off of not having as strong of a melee choice if you miss your ball is a fair trade-off. After all, if you're dying as repeatedly as you say Scouts usually die, you'll have the ball up multiple times in a round. It's to encourage Scouts to get up in the face of enemies and risk his safety for a huge (and satisfying) reward of sending them flying, much like the Sandman's taunt.

No complaints on either Sun-on-a-Stick or Fan o' War, although I will comment that a weapon that sinergizes between Scout and Pyro isn't such a bad idea, and it's more the lack of teamplay that makes this weapon not be as used (as any pyro that is close enough to burn an enemy should also be inches away from a melee hit, and if you're near a scout...even better). I'd just have it so the sun-on-a-stick would dish out fire-damage instead of critical hits but hey, that's just me.

I agree, I think there's a lot of potential of the melee gaining benefits from burning players, synergy-based weapons like that always pique my interest. However, I'm writing these changes also under the pretense that random crits would either be toggled off or removed entirely (I plan on mentioning that in my next post should I make it), so it'd almost never actually see its crit effect be used, and I think a melee that promotes tanking a bit of damage to get a boost could be fun, especially in Medieval mode, which I'm staying very aware of as I write these balance ideas.

[Racist Gamer Man]

One 24-hour bump. If this doesn't get any more replies by this time tomorrow, I'll probably post a new thread for Soldier/Demo/Sniper "personal-balance-changenotes" in two or three days. Probably gonna post this on the TF2 sub as well, though I imagine if it gets any views besides none at all, it'll probably be people just disagreeing with me.

[Hell-met]

it sucks but that's how it is. you can spend literal 4 years on thought-out concepts that could benefit the game to everyone, in the end it's just valve that has the final word

[Racist Gamer Man]

Uh, alright.

Thanks for that reply I guess? If anything it lets me say one of the many things I'm going to add to the next thread: I'm not just posting these ideas for only feedback.

Now that I have a steady income, the goal would be the get a TF2 server up and running, and to either learn the coding/scripting necessary to implement these changes serverside myself (like Advanced Weaponizer), or to hire somebody to do the coding and scripting for me. I obviously don't expect it to have a consistent playerbase, but I'd love to have a once-a-week event that I'd post about both here and potentially on some other source of TF2 community with reliable players, like how the Facepunch servers have events that go on every now and then.

I obviously only came up with this idea recently (I've only had my job for a month), and when I go back for my last year of college in the next month I'll be busy as hell, but it's just something for people reading my threads to consider, that if they felt these changes were good, there'd be a place where they could at least test them out.

[Racist Gamer Man]

I think I'll probably go with the suggestion of making all ammo boxes restore a bit of CD to consumables. That being said, I also plan on posting a new thread full of my weapon balance ideas for Soldier, Demo, and Sniper, and want to thank you for posting that link to AW, I'm going to try and contact the people maintaining the Custom Weapons mod to see if they could help me with my plans. Nothing's set in stone yet, but depending on how cheap TF2 servers are, I may be able to have a server up before the end of this month.