I still like my fictional characters to not be complete idiots tyvm
okay at least I'll not use the p-word for nitpicks.
My dyslexic ass read it as "Shut up about pot holes" and i was very confused when I watched the video.
Thats actually not the point of the video. The video is basically explaining that people tend to mix up certain cinematic techniques as plot-holes instead of actual plot-holes.
Yeah his point that "people don't act logical all the time" is half true, but when someone acts illogically it should still be clear why. If you need someone to do something that goes directly against their best interests in order for your story to work, that's okay, there's an opportunity for characterization there. What character failing is motivating themselves to make this poor decision? If you can't come up with an answer to that question that works in the context of the character, then that's a failing of the movie.
Sure but he also points to actually bad writing and says "This doesn't matter" when it actually does matter quite a bit. Just because it's not a plot hole doesn't mean it's fine. He says characters don't need to be written completely logically but on the examples he picked (A Queit Place and Star Wars especially) the characters acted like fucking morons. I find it very difficult to sympathise with a character or relate to the drama when they constantly do stupid shit but the film pretends it's a normal thing to do.
Maybe rather than making a video complaining that people are using the wrong word to voice their complaints he should have made a video explaining what plot holes are and what other narrative problems are. Try to broaden the vocabulary of film criticism rather than just whine about people using a word wrong.
i think he's more talking about how online discourse is solely details driven without ever talking about intent, interpretation, or other artistic ideas. Look at, like, nearly every youtube movie reviewer ever and you'll almost never see them expand past basic level plot observations. If you look at popular sites discussing art, lets say tvtropes, and once again the discourse is limited to 'thing A happened, then thing B happened'. Look at wikis, and they're all focused on minor background lore and setting up timelines, getting all the causal ducks in a row, but there's almost never any interpretive or artistic discussion.
basically, the video is about people need to focus less on the 'what' and more on the 'why'
That and also people don't realize there is certain shit that is kept vague and unknown for a reason. Since its suppose to let the reader/watcher/audience come up with their own interpretation of whats happening instead of spelling it out for them.
Or someone that has a compulsive habit of begging for wheels after going through pot holes on purpose.
i agree with the general sentiment of reviews needing to focus on bigger things instead of plot nitpicks (especially the part with things that happen off-screen, people complain about that shit way too much) but to say gaps in logic dont matter and you're watching the movie wrong if you care about logic is a really dumb broad statement
i can ignore gaps in logic just fine if i'm emotionally invested and most of the time they dont affect my opinion of a movie at all, but it's hard to be emotionally invested when a movie doesn't address really big issues like A Quiet Place's "why dont they just live by the waterfall" and i don't understand why that's not a legitimate complaint that can affect someone's enjoyment
A good example of a movie properly explaining a mistake would be toy story. The first part of the movie shows how woody is being displaced by buzz lightyear, and eventually gets to the point where he makes a mistake and shoves buzz out the window.
Compare that to the scene where holdo didn't tell poe their plan. There wasn't really any motivation for her not to tell him, both logically and emotionally. Also, it's kind of her job to think about those things rationally.
probably a better way to title the video would've been.
"THESE ARE NOT PLOT-HOLES" or something like that.
This hits the nail on the head tbh. It's fine if it can be explained or even if it was just consistent with how people think in general in the story, but its kinda stupid when a character makes a poor decision which makes no sense it can be jarring and frustrating to the viewer just for the sake of pushing the plot forward.
My issue is that he says that none of these things never matter even though they clearly do. Yes criticizing a dumb fun action movie like Die Hard for characters using bad logic is dumb because that's not the focus of the movie and ultimately doesn't matter with regards to how they intend the viewer to enjoy the movie, but if your movie is meant to have a rich plot/character development then of course these things are issues and legitimate complaints that can make it less enjoyable.
How the fuck was there not? He had just disobeyed direct orders and gotten a lot of people killed and was demoted for it. That’s more than enough reason to not want to tell him the plans.
now on the other hand if you were discussing Leia and Holdo’s discussion about Poe later on in the movie (when the transports were about to leave) after he mutinied, I’d certainly say there was no logical reason for them to be like “yea he’s alright”.
Absolutely. I came in here expecting to get riled up about another dude pushing the "none of this matters lmao turn off your brain dude" narrative about film critique and instead ended up with the coldest take in the book.
Like, yeah. People are nitpicky assholes. Nice observation there.
The eagles thing is definitely a plothole, considering there's not even a throw away line for as to why the eagles didn't.
Did you forget the one ring corrupts, specially the powerful? The eagles would've taken the ring, likely fucked off somewhere else, abused the ring, become ringwraiths or whatever and bam, Sauron's back. Bad idea.
This video is garbage though. There's a huge comment (below the pinned comment) by YourMovieSucks that pretty much lays everything bare.
thing is, even if they did. It still isn't. Cause you got 9 ring-wraiths. A giant fucking tower with a paralyzing eyeball. And hundreds of thousands of orcs with bows and arrows. They gonna die.
Yeah but they could have given Frodo a life
Holdo didn't tell Poe her plan because she didn't trust him. Okay, kind of stupid since getting him to enact the plan is difficult to do when he doesn't know what to do, but fine.
Why did she refuse to tell her plan to anybody? They're getting constantly hammered by enemy fire and the shields are going to fail while she secretly funnels fuel into the shuttles to get people out. Why keep this a secret? Why not say "If we just try to run away with piss all fuel and failing shields we'll die, if we load up on the shuttles that have sensor cloaks we might get away." It's not like Poe can stop her single-handedly.
Oh but that's just a character flaw. Fine, but why did everyone go along with her bullshit until Poe enacted a rebellion? Why did she sit and watch the First Order blowing up the shuttles for like 40 minutes before enacting her suicide plan? Oh she has this desperate plan to save the people, but that can wait until half of them die so she can feel bad about it first.
He did something stupid yes, but was he disloyal? hell no. Telling him the plan would probably help him not try to do something even stupider? The only reason he did his stupider plan and mutinied in the first place was because Holdo acted like she had no clue what she was doing, and she had no plan too.
He didn’t have a role in the plan, and had been demoted - The movie makes that very clear. He was supposed to let more level-heads do the actual work. And she did tell people, people who it mattered to. It’s not even like everyone participated in his mutiny either, so there were still more level-headed people than Poe that got the message.
and “40 minutes” give me a break.
He disobyed direct orders from the person at the very top of the food chain. He was demoted for it, and with that means a loss of priveleges from his previous rank. Holdo had no reason to actually trust him.
Yes we know Poe reacted rashly without being kept in the loop (one he was rightfully kept out of), but how do we know that’s how he would have reacted had he been told her plan? Up to that point he was pretty good at not following the plan.
"Sir, we've a problematic element in the chain of command, what should we do?"
"keep them on their post but actively agitate them whne they want to know how we're dealing with a situation which puts his and all others lives at stake".
It's just literally not how leadership works or should work. They had two logical options for Poe: Fully brig him from the start or keep him in the loop. Regarding that plan they shouldve kept everyone in the loop, also.
Whats the downside of telling him the plan exactly? If he tried starting shit, they could brig him till its over. It was a dumb as hell plot point and ruined majority of the movie for me. Its like 2/3rds of the movie were created solely for one person not saying something. It really feels like they made the movie with rey in mind and forgot they had a massive chunk of cast with nothing to really do.
Maybe because the characters are supposed to written as such
reminder that this was happening after the First Order had tracked 'em down through hyperspace, something that as far as they knew was impossible. take that and add it to an atmosphere where no one trusts anyone, and it's pretty obvious that command assumed there was someone leaking intel to the enemy, something that, i'll admit, should've been said out loud by someone at some point, but was still pretty obvious regardless. and with that in mind were they really gonna trust everyone on board to know their plan to escape? let alone a dude who was demoted for disobeying direct orders from a person he'd been working with for some time not two hours ago? c'mon now
I haven't watched the LOTR's movies in a while, but wasn't there a giant tower with a giant eye at the top that could kill people by looking at them? Wouldn't that be a deterrent?
This doesn't matter because the plan itself hinges on there being no spy. The moment the spy gets on the transports, the plan is blown to hell. Just send a message "Hey guys we all got on a bunch of defenseless transports heading for that planet nearby."
Yea sorry people acting illogically isn't a good thing and it does matter. There's making mistakes due to character flaws and lack of knowledge and there's petting a hissing giant bug-cobra-thing on an alien planet. I can't root for a guy, or feel scared for his sake if he's this fucking dumb.
On the surface I think the best rule of thumb is whether or not it's affecting your enjoyment of the movie. The thing is, if the audience is getting really annoyed by something that's happening, it doesn't really matter what you call it, your film obviously isn't doing what it's supposed to do. This simply happens too easily with the TLJ. I don't go looking for plot holes but my goodwill toward it wore off really quickly.
If you're doing a more critical analysis of a movie, it's definitely fair to go out of your way to see if e.g. it plays by its own rules, but I personally wouldn't do this unless it was already a really good movie that warranted a deeper look.
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