Many Ways to Be a Girl, but One Way to Be a Boy: The New Gender Rules - Sensationalist Headlines

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/14/upshot/gender-stereotypes-survey-girls-boys.html Interesting article about how modern day gender politics have made it easier for women to be able to be who they wanna be while men are still pressured into rigid gender roles. Kinda confirms a suspicion I've been having about how the whole equality debate have centered a bit too much on women and should have been focused more on the inequalities between both sexes. Not too late to change that though and hopefully we'll start seeing more dialogues about this in the future.

Yeh, toxic masculinity is goddamn terrible.

Weird I feel like the whole metrosexual movement in the early 2000s, and emo scene would’ve stumped that out.

Not being toxic != lack of masculinity. Masculinity in itself is not a negative thing, toxic masculinity is.

Really read the whole article, I just read a snippet thus far until I get time, but it seems well researched and addressing to all sides

That's irrelevant because toxic masculinity is not a crime, it's annoying behavior. It's always up to personal interpretation what you find annoying

Toxic masculinity is still very strong but I straight up disagree with the idea that there is no progress on acceptance of non toxic male gender expression. It's a slower progress, but more and more guys are embracing being less obsessed with masculinity. Kinda confirms a suspicion I've been having about how the whole equality debate have centered a bit too much on women This kind of mindset is unnecesary, fighting against traditionnal female gender roles doesnt mean you're not also fighting men's gender roles, fighting for one is also fighting for the other. A good example of that is men taking care of kids at home more and more and their wives are then able to have a career. And the death of toxic masculinity helps both men and women.

No one is saying that men shouldn't be men save for a few fringe lunatics. You and everyone else can express their gender and sexuality in any way they see fit as long as they're not being assholes, and this will not change ever.

Terry Crews would like to have a word with you.

Oh man I completely forgot about the metrosexuality fad. That was fuckin' weird.

What an original misunderstanding of what toxic masculinity is.

what?

I feel that no matter what happens it would probably be beneficial if we continued being familiar with what the feminine and the masculine archetypes are and what the positive expressions of both were like throughout history, so that way we are capable of exploring the positive expressions of both genders while being aware of their roots as time goes on. I think that with so much individualistic exploration lately it can be somewhat easy to get lost sometimes.

There was also the androgyny fad of the '80s where you had men like Prince, Rick James, and Michael Jackson covered in more pussy than the days they were born

He's a perfect example of someone who is a gorgeous specimen of a man and yet at the same time does not buy into toxic masculinity at all. We should all strive to be like Terry Crews (you decide on the big muscles part).

This is stuff I've veen trying to come to terms with for awhile now. I've always been a sensitive/emotional human, but growing up where I did was a constant string of "you should be stronger/tougher/manlier" until I repressed my emotions so bad that I ended up becoming a dissociated shell of a human for years. I've only just recently been allowing myself to express emotion again, and after so long of hiding it I'm finding it very difficult, but do able.

I get the impression that you've somehow managed to fundamentally misunderstand almost everything that this video and topic discusses.

A bit is an understatement. There are many issues men face that get kept under the rug all the time. Domestic violence done by women towards men is being silenced, men being shut out from the #metoo thing even though they receive sexual harassment by women as well, double standards when it comes to pedophily for example, 4 times higher suicide rates than women and only 1(!) shelter for men to find help in the USA while women and children have something from 1500 to 3000. And much much more. I'm glad it's somewhat being picked up now but it should have been like this from the start.

I never, ever bought into toxic masculinity - not just because I've never fit the traditional cultural mold of a "man," but because my my parents never tried to force me to conform to those toxic standards ether. In fact, my dad was not one bit afraid to cry in front of all of us during the most difficult periods in his life (seriously, our family has been through some shit), and my own emotional openness was encouraged rather than shamed.

I woils say Toxic Masculinity involves something like - never being able to express your emotions, making fun of men for having hobbies that are traditionally feminine, over-aggressive behavior, necessity to compare strength to manliness, treating women as inferior. It doesn’t mean you can’t be a jacked bearded dude who likes cutting down trees, hunting, who’s confident, strong, and fearless.

It's hard not to feel like society doesn't give a shit about you solely because you're a man. "Women and children first" -- because men are expendable. Men -- not women -- are forced to sign up for Selective Service -- because men are expendable. People talk about the "tragedy" that, say, 30% of homeless are women. As if women are less deserving of being homeless. Male suicide rates are through the roof. Men are more likely to be victims of all violent crime with the sole exception of sexual assault. Men are treated far more harshly than women in the justice system -- and the gap is larger than the gap between whites and blacks. Men are far less likely to win custody of their children, even if the woman is much less fit to have custody. We're constantly told that solving the issues of women will trickle down and solve male issues somehow. That every issue men face is really just the result of women being discriminated against. That it's never the right time to talk about these issues because we need to talk about the issues women face. Sexist terms are encouraged to be used against us -- "mansplaining", "manspreading", etc. -- but sexist terms are being eradicated and shunned when they're female-specific. So let's say you want to talk about these issues with other like-minded people. Congrats, you're an MRA. You're now a dirty word. And you're surrounded by a lot of people who also agree with these issues... and some of them will drop "fuck women those cunts" and you remember why you just don't talk about any of this in public -- because they'll think you're that person. None of this is to say that men are "the true oppressed class". Everyone has issues. Women have legitimate issues that deserve solving. I'd just really like to be able to talk about mine.

It's not only ignoring mens issues, but also seemingly denying womens role in enforcing them. I see a lot of people who seem to act like it's all men forcing other men into it and turning a blind eye to womens role in forcing men into their gender roles.

Men are blamed for forcing gender roles onto women Men are blamed for forcing gender roles onto men You'd get the impression that women don't play a part in cultural norms.

If you think a few people complaining about guys spreading their legs wide on the metro being a proof that society hates men, you're just delusionnal. Youre mad at a few activists nobody takes seriously or things actually nobody says. Nobody has ever said "men suicide rates arent a big deal". Like seriously we can have one thread about genders without this "WHAT ABOUT MEN" rant. Again, saying toxic toxic masculinity is harmful isnt saying masculinity or men are bad.

Can we have one discussion on male issues without someone bringing out "WHAT ABOUT MEN" as a way to shut up the conversation? If it's not relevant in this thread, where the fuck are we supposed to talk about it? This is exactly what I'm talking about.

You're doing nothing but sensationalise the topic and create fake arguments nobody is saying. Nobody said male suicide rates aren't a big deal, there's articles. A few people complaining about "mansplaining" on twitter is not a proof males are oppresed by society. Fixing issues males face in particular does not come with making up shit and playing the victim.

I didn't say they did. It's an issue men face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOXh5repOWI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6yZmnxjUAs I didn't say men are "oppressed by society". I said that sexist terms against men are encouraged by many. Including leaders of world governments. Where have I made shit up? If speaking about issues a segment of the population faces means I'm "playing the victim" then so is everyone who's ever sought the improvement of anything.

I've pretty much never followed the traditional traits of "masculinity", nor have I ever felt remotely relatable to men in general, yet I've suffered no ill effects(not that I'd care if anyone had an issue with it anyway). This is all despite serious self-confidence issues my whole life, so I've never understood the obsession with coming across as a "man"; especially those that formulate their entire identity around masculinity. imo toxic masculinity is genuinely one of the most destructive societal structures at the present, both to men themselves, as well as the women that are subjected to it.

I do a lot of blatantly man-ish shit even though I never intentionally tried to be masculine or revolve my identity around masculinity at any point, which is exactly how it should be honestly. If being masculine comes naturally and brings joy to the owner without being detrimental or toxic than that is precisely what being a true man is all about, with the same case for being a woman, and not about suppressing your emotions and being afraid to cry even though crying exists as an effective emotional catharsis so that the person quickly feels better instead of letting the emotions brew more and more on the inside until the fucker ends up in a mental hospital or punching someone

I can think of dozens of world changing men who absolutely did not conform to the stereotypical masculine roles.