• Swedish 'man-free' festival breached discrimination law
    33 replies, posted
https://www.sbs.com.au/news/swedish-man-free-festival-breached-discrimination-law
[quote]However, the DO said the investigation found no individual had actually been discriminated against. "No differentiation based on sex was made between visitors at entry," the findings read. But "public statements which clearly discourage" persons from engaging in the event amounted to gender-discrimination, according to the publication.[/quote]
I've been saying for years this festival is sexist and should be closed down
As long as nobody was turned away at the gate, I honestly don't see anything morally wrong with this. Other than the man-pen in the back, that's pretty shit.
I'm not sure if it's more or less discriminatory that they allowed trans-men but not cis-men.
Exactly. On the other hand, the discrimination consists of encouraging certain people not to go to the festival, and transmen are not included in the specific case of discrimination.
To repeat: ""No differentiation based on sex was made between visitors at entry," the findings read. " Like, if you bought a ticket and went you would not be turned away. It's the PR around it that was criticised. Had they actually gone through with a ban they'd be hit with a book very, very hard.
The creator of the festival still should be hit with a book. But like physically, not metaphorically.
Imagine if there’s was a festival advertising no blacks festival, I don’t think we’d let it slide.
Wait, what? Man pen? I can't find any mention of this in the article.
It's written about other places. It's just an area for stage crew and such, which is mostly male, that they decided to give an edgy name.
Excuse me, but what the colonialistic fuck?
Honestly I understand why some women would want something like this. I often hear female friends talk about how much they get harrassed by some men when they’re just going out somewhere. It’s not fun to have to deal with that regularly.
Yea, understandable, but you gotta agree this is an extreme example no? Imagine if it was the reverse? Or with ethnicities instead?
The issue is that if you actually apply this concept to other parts of society, you very quickly end up with a lot of pretty not-so-nice ideas. It's guilt by association basically, except your only association is whatever parts you have between your legs.
Yeah no I don’t think this is a very good solution to the problem, though I’m not sure what it should be instead, at least in the short-term.
The problem is that the organizers are reactionaries who feel like they need to punch up against the oppressed in society, no matter what, without stopping and thinking about the implications of what they are doing. I'm pretty sure they didn't mean to imply that transmen aren't men but that they wanted to give them an extra push over cismen without realizing the implication of it all. That, and the organizers are rich upper-class people who are riding the wave of identity politics but would never be bothered to bring up how much class affects your role in society too.
Imagine the shitstorm and mass suings if it was "women-free" festival instead
Treating all men as if they're the problem only serves to flip the tables and paint the problem (and I mean 'the problem' as in harassment, sexual assault, etc.) as a natural reaction to something. It's not a natural reaction. It's not an unavoidable, inherent, natural impulse in men to abuse women, so treating all men like sexual assault is natural is only working against their own goals.
At the risk of veering into hyperbole, if an event hung up a big sign saying "No blacks allowed" and had an area in the back called "the nigger pen" even if black people were not turned away at the gate or not encouraged to go in the pen and aside from the sign and the pen it was just a normal festival wouldn't people still call it racist as shit? Not to mention that while yes gender divisions in society have historically favoured men the way you fix that isn't to make men have a bad time, its to just make sure women can also have a good time. Like really, what message does it send about equality if you are basically implying "we think you are pigs and belong in a pen" that's only going to breed resentment that causes more harm than good in the long run.
Honestly, it's a good thing this sort of shit is seriously being looked into. Discrimination isn't something that should be tolerated regardless of how much privilege the victim of it has. The first and foremost reason that this sort of shit is bad is because you're treating certain people like shit on the sole basis of their sex/race/sexual orientation/gender identity/etc.
If fact if you applied this to any groups other than whites, or men, it would be seen as heinous and be met with global public outcry.
Just have a women’s festival aimed at women and husbands.
No it's not, this is a bad way of looking for a "gotcha" argument that misses out on a lot of nuance in the situation. Many transguys still have the baggage and shitty experiences that come with growing up female, and unless they pass 100% to everyone that sees them, they're probably still getting harassed by people (men) the same way many people who get clocked as female in public are. Those are experiences your average cis guy can't relate to, so having spaces where they can talk with people who have also suffered that kind of harassment is important in avoiding isolation. You'll also notice, reading the article, that non-binary people were also explicitly allowed in, because they can also probably relate. And considering the festival was formed in response to another popular Swedish music festival clocking up 4 reported rapes and 23 reported sexual assaults (and who knows how much went unreported), I think it's pretty clear there's a desire for a safe space for women/etc to have fun without constantly worrying. It's definitely not as simple as "but what if the roles were reversed?"
Honestly, the fact that the organizers take a "Fuck men, who needs them?" stance while simultaneously relying on them to get the show off the ground is fucking hilarious.
No. I've had the "You're a transman, so you get to have special privileges" argument used on me and it's frankly insulting. All it does is tell me that they don't see me as a man, and instead something else. I don't know what that "Something else" might be, but it's not something I like the sound of. All it does is remind me that I'm not biologically a man. I don't want to be treated differently because I happen to have XX chromosomes instead of XY.
Yeah and black people do commit a statistically disproportionate amount of crime in America so by your logic that'd justify a "whites-only" event "Whites just want somewhere to go to feel safe!" (hint: that's not fucking justifiable)
Then feel free to avoid the festival, it's not like anyone's forcing you to go if you have objections to it. I'm in an LGBT chat that's minus cis guys as agreed on by all the transguys, transgirls, cisgirls, and enbies in attendance because we wanted to have somewhere where we could talk about things they couldn't/wouldn't relate to. I'm definitely not invalidating your experience and that's totally fine for you to feel, but you sh ould recognize that there are other trans people who are happy to have spaces like this. Honestly I think it's kinda concerning that the first thing you jump to is "but black people commit lots of crime, and we can't say anything about that!" Yes, segregating events based on race is obviously bad, no one would ever argue otherwise. This issue is not racial discrimination however (seriously, completely different set of dynamics), this is a completely different problem in that women are straight up not safe at music festivals. There is an easily identified, thoroughly documented, and highly systematic issue that affects upwards of 90% of female festival-goers (and cuts across race, class, etc) and is still being more-or-less ignored. Did you ever stop and wonder why this event was actually taking place before levying outrage at it? How about looking at any of these articles Music Festivals Issues With Sexual Misconduct Incidents of sexual harassment, assault high at music festivals,.. There's a Rape Problem at Music Festivals and Nobody Seems to Ca.. https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-44518892 If you have a better way to keep women safe at these events, I'm sure the organizers would be more than happy to hear your suggestions.
Several years ago, I was on a LGBT forum (Empty Closets). I was just figuring things out and stumbled across a thread where people were bashing men. The whole "male privilege" thing. I pointed out how all the bashing made me uncomfortable. A woman saw fit to point out that I was exempt from said male privilege. All that told me, was that I wasn't seen as a man, but a "man". The festival reminds me entirely of that: "Yeah, we acknowledge you're not cis, but you're also not really a man and we still pretty much see you as a woman". I suppose I must be an outlier then, when it comes to male exclusive spaces. I consider myself a man, ergo, I see "no men allowed" spaces as a no-go. Besides all that, I can't relate to women at all, and usually end up feeling hella uncomfortable when the inevitable period/pregnancy talk comes up. If anything, I prefer talking to cismen, and...Strangely enough? While they might not be able to 100% relate, they sure as hell can empathize. And sure, I can certainly understand that people are happy to have spaces like that, but it needs to be recognized that not all transpeople want to be treated differently. I don't want to be put up on a pedestal based on what I identify as. I want to be treated as me. The person. But honestly, the whole Us vs Them that permeates the LGBT community is one of the biggest issues I draw with the community and why I staunchly refuse to be a part of it. As accepting as the community claims to be, I've seen a massive amount of hate from the different groups directed at other groups.
I think it's alarming how you read my post, including the footnote, and warped it to fit this strawman you've constructed for me. Try again, dick.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.