• A 2nd Brexit Referendum Once Seemed Unthinkable. Now Support Is Growing
    30 replies, posted
https://www.npr.org/2018/12/18/677783499/a-2nd-brexit-referendum-once-seemed-unthinkable-now-support-is-growing Not so long ago, staging another Brexit referendum in the United Kingdom seemed almost unthinkable. But in recent weeks, as calls have grown louder, the unthinkable has begun to seem plausible.
it's always democratic to determine the general populations more current opinions about decisions that have yet to be made or finalized.
I don't see what else we can do if the deal is DOA. I can understand why some people are reluctant because yeah, the political and cultural consequences of holding a second referendum are basically unknowable, but we do know that the consequences of crashing out with no deal would be so much worse
I was discussing Brexit last night with my dad and grandfather over dinner. I didn't bring it up, grandpa did, because I know my dad who only lived in the UK for 5 years in the late 80s has some really wacky views on Brexit. So I mentioned that a hard Brexit with a hard border in Ireland would probably break the Good Friday Agreement and could potentially start up the troubles again. My dad was immediately on top of that statement going on about how ridiculous it is to think the Irish would start up a civil war again over a hard border issue. Not five minutes later he casually says that if the government doesn't go through with Brexit there will be an armed revolution to knock over the government. I still can't figure out how my dad, who doesn't even live in the UK, has gained such nutty and strong views on Brexit. He almost froths at the mouth at the mention of Merkel. I can't only assume he's stuck on some crazy news bubble somewhere on the internet.
Good. Now that the consequences are abundantly well understood to be far worse than anyone could have imagined, people will have the potential opportunity to finally hit the emergency brake.
I think such a vote should have been the plan from the beginning. The first vote should be "should the UK prepare to exit the EU?", with a second "This is the plan we've come up with, do we go through with it or not?" once a plan has been hammered out. From what I gather, nobody expected the first referendum to succeed, so nobody planned for what to do if it did. Nobody with an understanding of international relations would have thought a Brexit would be to anyone's benefit. But, it was a useful internal ploy for some UK politicians, who could promise to remove all the downsides of EU membership without losing any of the advantages, because they didn't have a plan, they just had a slogan. Of course, now that a deal of sorts seems to be taking shape, it looks very much like keeping all the problems of EU membership, without any of the good parts.
As far as I am aware leaving would not mean the Good Friday Agreement is canceled, that is still in effect. Customs of moving goods over the border however is a separate agreement with the EU, and something that would need to be discussed.
but i thought a second referendum was undemocratic vis a vis the first result? /s
One of the key points in the Good Friday Agreement was the UK remove all of its border posts and the Nth Ireland/Ireland border become a soft border with no checkpoints.
As much as I saw going on with Brexit, I don't think they will want to have a 2nd one till its too late.
It does sound like it. I'm not sure how it is in mainland Europe but brexit isn't really something that gets talked about very often over here except among the white nationalists, they'll run with any narrative about globalists and/or white genocide regardless of what country it comes from.
Sounds like the classic case of a baby boomer fully believing right wing fake news websites.
Unsupervised internet use. Really, kids who let their parents just go on the internet on their own will find that their parents are watching all kinds of weird shit, and it'll fuck them up.
https://twitter.com/lacomtessejamie/status/1045113354120048640?lang=en
Theresa May is stalling for time to avoid a second referendum. The government is effectively filibustering (or trying to) her pos deal through the commons.
The Irish would 100% absolutely go back to war with the UK if a hard border was enforced and British military presence increased.
Sounds just the same as my old man. Though the only sources I know he has are the Sunday Times, BBC news, and friends. He was a paramedic in the NHS during Thatcher's reign of terror and used to be left wing. Since retirement he's become staunchly right wing, and honestly it's been quite depressing to watch. Any mention of Brexit sends him off on a preaching session about immigrants and sovereignty. Trying to debate with logic doesn't work, and trying to debate with emotions doesn't work, which leaves me at a complete loss.
Back when it had come out that Russia had been manipulating targeted advertising from Cambridge Analytica I brought up the topic and talked bout how we probably all were manipulated in such a manner. My brother and I both agreed we probably had while my dad talking about how "other" people (i.e. lefties) definitely had but would never say he could have. Though he didn't say it outright he was basically going for him being too smart to fall for it.
He is. He likely gets his information from infowars. I, uh, speak from experience. Sadly.
I think war is a bit of a stretch... I can imagine the IRA gaining traction again but for Ireland to go to war? No chance
I'm honestly not optimistic that Remain will even win 2nd time around. And yes, I do want this election to happen purely so my side wins because omg it's way too dangerous to not win. This isn't a thing that the public is, in its current state, informed enough to vote on. Shit, I barely understand it and I'm obsessive about this stuff and was taking an economics course whilst the vote was happening so it just so happened that I was taught a shit ton about it as a real life framing for my course. Plus, we know for a fact now that this election was approached with bad faith and was manipulated by people in and outside of this country.
“I BET THE DEEP STATE IS BEHIND THIS.”
The Irish Republic would absolutely not go to war over it. What would likely happen is that you would see an increase in paramilitaries and terror attacks and widespread disruption but the Irish government would not declare war over a hard border.
Really, ideally democracy should be a constant process with ebb and flow, not an event that happens every few years. If we vote for something and then realise it's a fucking insane idea, we shouldn't cut the breaks and put a brick on the accelerator. The truth is that the powers that be do not want this, simply because it means less power for them. If their actions become a persistent will of the people, rather than predefined decisions that can be easily engineered then politics eventually begins to feel like a force of nature, as opposed to power we alledgedly willing impose on ourselves. And once politics begins to feel like a force of nature, change becomes a lot harder because it seems a lot less possible. And the people who are sitting pretty right now, obviously, do not want change.
For real though. I don't know how two people with decades of education can't figure out how to use the internet responsibly when I started all on my own at SIX years old. God forbid they ever find Jordan Peterson or some similar bullshit. I count myself lucky that they at least know better than to read right wing conspiracy stuff.
Even the mayor of London is supporting for 2nd referendum: https://twitter.com/SadiqKhan/status/1072156002454249472/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1072156002454249472&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fpolitics%2Fblog%2Flive%2F2018%2Fdec%2F10%2Fbrexit-deal-vote-latest-theresa-may-ecj-government-says-ecj-ruling-irrelevant-because-uk-leaving-eu-anyway-politics-live
He's always been vocal about a second referendum London pretty much was 100% remain.
Sent an email to my MP; got a pretty cookie cutter response back but want to let it be known for folk like he-who-shall-not-be-named who still think no-deal is a good idea. Unfortunately not even a peep about a second referendum or People's Vote. I don't believe staying in the EU is an option at this stage and I will be backing the Government's Deal as I believe it is the only way to avoid the disaster of a no deal Brexit.  One thing I am absolutely certain about is this: a no deal Brexit would be a disaster for Scotland and the whole of the UK. It would harm the economy, threaten jobs and damage people’s standards of living. I will do everything I can to stop that happening. I am pleased that the deal agreed allows the UK to negotiate, sign and ratify Free Trade Agreements with rest of world partners and, following the Implementation Period, implement any elements that do not affect the functioning of the backstop, such as those aspects related to services, procurement and investment.
I'm referring to the Irish people, many of whom are still very bitter about the UK's involvement in their nation. If you know about the Troubles you'll understand it was always a guerrilla war involving smaller-scale militias like you said. When used in this context 'The Irish' refers to the peoples not the state.
That's a funny definition of the word "even". Even the bear shits in the woods!
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