I just want to drop by and say that if anyone can, please try to play the original PS2 release first either emulated or on the actual hardware. There's so many changes from the tone, music, pacing and visuals (from an artistic standpoint) that it really is a different game (inferior in some ways) compared to the original.
That said I'm still happy this is getting a PC release, both this and 6 suffered from a lot of performance issues on the original PS4 hardware so it'd be nice to see it in a more stable and smooth framerate. And I would admit despite it being really short, the new Majima scenario is worthwhile, especially as a narrative closure from 0.
To add on to this. Emulation works pretty well performance wise, theres a weird visual issue thats stuck to the side of your screen when emulating the game on PCSX2, but with a bit of tweaking you can make it less noticable, and during my entire playthrough of the original 2 I completely ended up ignoring it as if its not there, otherwise the game runs real smooth
I can attest to the last 2 posts as well I emulated both Y1 and Y2 a few years ago which really got me into the series, with the right settings they run really nice on PCSX2. There's always the settings on the emulator wiki but I uploaded a picture that I saved ages ago which just put most if it into an image. https://imgur.com/mHGqSxn (I left it as a link to not have it take up the page)
I still need to play through 0 and the first one, goddamn!
Hot damn, I'm only roughly close to half way through(?) Kiwami 2. But seeing how it's coming to PC and I honestly can't stand playing Kiwami 2 on the original PS4, I really might pick this up.
After reading the first several posts, I only played through Zero and Kiwami 1 completely and haven't played the PS2 releases, I really hope I didn't miss too much..
Goddamn. That was WAY faster than I thought it would be, considering Kiwami 2 runs on a different engine than the Yakuza games we've gotten so far.
Also the leaks of PC ports seemed to suggest we were gonna get Yakuza 6 next, but it now seems like they're releasing the series in chronological order. Guess that means after Kiwami 2, we're getting 3-5, and then 6?
kiwami 1 makes some changes to the original but most of them are negligible and some straight up improvements (particularily the much improved gameplay and characterization of nishiki)
kiwami 2 however is less of an upgrade and more of a sidegrade
the thing that makes yakuza 2 a fan favorite is the neo-noir tone and particularily the extremely memorable ending, both of which kinda got fucked up by the remake
the most noticable difference is the 2 awesome cutscenes in the original version that use licensed music to fantastic effect and are easily the most memorable moments in the game, but unfortunately the team either chose to or could not get their hands on the licenses on the songs for kiwami 2
but since the remakes are so low budget, they couldn't edit the cutscenes to reflect the new completely different song that replaces both licensed tracks, which makes them a lot more awkward since they're paced specifically around the songs that were used
and the worst part is the new song doesn't fit the emotion or tone of the particular scene nor of the entire game thanks to the baffling choice to replace a mature bluesy jazz ballad and a choir rendition of Silent Night, Holy Night with poppy metal
tl;dr play the PS2 version of Yakuza 2 first to experience the story, then go play the kiwami 2 version if you want to do side activities and such and prefer the yakuza 6 gamplay over yakuza 2's
I know that there's a mod to restore licensed songs for both Yakuza 0 and Kiwami. Does something like that not exist for Kiwami 2?
hadnt even thought about that but if it does exist it would fix that problem
i still have minor gripes with kiwami 2 but if the tone is mostly restored (though it's impossible to fully restore it because of how different the games are artstyle-wise) it should be mostly the same experience as the original 2
It's not just the music, Kiwami 2 is one of the laziest cashgrab remakes I've ever seen. The facial animations are less expressive and any changes in eye movements based on a characters mood are completely gone, there are graphical effects, including reflections, that are somehow gone despite the game being on the more powerful PS4 and so on. One character even went through a stupid change where they decided to use their fancy facial capture tech on him because he was played by a famous Japanese actor, thus changing him from a young dude to some old man despite the fact that him being a young and opportunistic Yakuza was an integral part of his character. It's absolute nonsense and easily one of the low points of the series.
http://i.4cdn.org/v/1555049145615.webm
http://i.4cdn.org/v/1555047569845.jpg
Better start saying hello to any future releases of the older games, because thats whats happening and what happened with a character in Y4
Well the change they made in Y4 is more complicated than that: One of the main reasons the change was made was because the character's VA/Likeness was accused of using cocaine (which is seen as really bad in Japan compared to the West), which even though he was cleared of all allegations, it still hurt his reputation a lot and caused him to retire from acting.
Now whether or not the recasting is due to the actor not allowing his likeness/voice to be used in the remaster or if that was a call on the developers part is unknown to me.
I needed to add a bit extra acknowledging the use of irl actors, and what you mentioned about accusation of coke usage is a good example of changes that can happen, even with actors that agree to use their likeness in remasters
To give perspective from someone who started the series with 0, I think K2 is a great game and a huge step up from the previous games.
The fighting feels a lot more fluid and modern, the graphics are leaps and bounds ahead of the previous games and the ability to walk into shops without having to go through a load screen is a godsend.
A lot of the complaints in this thread feel very nitpick-y but if changes in the soundtrack and slightly tweaked facial animations overshadow all the improvements and new content in K2 to you so be it.
Changing a character who was designed to be a young and aspiring Yakuza into an old man because they got the chance to do it isn't exactly nit picky, and the part where Kiryu gets shanked by the homeless guy is day and night different, let's leave the song changes out, the fact that they thought it was necessary to add a loud stabbing sound completely ruins the shock of finding out that Kiryu got stabbed and then shortly collapsing
A bit unfair to judge the previous games if you started with 0 don't you think?
And the fighting feeling more fluid is a bit of a far off statement, the physics and the overall movement feels a lot more clunkier when they switched to the Dragon Engine. Ragdolls while fun to see, breaks the animations and the setups during combat, resulting in some odd pauses during combat because of a mixture of invulnerability phases and ragdoll states that take a few seconds to recover from. Granted they improved this feeling a bit compared to 6, but the pacing and overall control feeling still feels off compared to the previous games (especially 4, 0 and 5 which have been one of the most fluid entries in the series). I will have to give credit for the seamless loading between areas though.
And it's not just 'slightly tweaked facial animations' and 'soundtrack' changes. The former is inexcusable because they got the tech and hardware to at least replicate the same expressiveness, if not improve upon the originals. It's a lot jarring how stiff they look with the higher polygon count. Kiwami 1 shown this issue as well, having higher poly models but with the same animations from the PS2 version with just slightly tweaked animations. (The new additional Nishiki scenes really highlights this, as they're brand new, you can see how much more expressive and properly animated they are compared to the cut and paste PS2 animations with the new graphics).
The soundtrack is a huge part of the overall tone of the game, and conveys a feeling for the story. And Yakuza, especially 2 is well known and highly regarded for its engaging crime drama story on top of the fun gameplay and silly diversions.
Spoilers, but compare this scene from the original with the jazzy tune and with the poppy J-rock song on Kiwami 2. As well as adding an unnecessary, almost comical sound effect when 'it happens'. This is just one of many examples.
Not to mention they removed an entire area from 2 in Kiwami
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58209/ba7ec395-f322-4533-83f4-edff514e7dd3/Area.PNG
And as mentioned earlier, the places where they cut corners really shows. A remake shouldn't look inferior compared to its original, and just because they upped the polygon count and complex shaders doesn't mean it's an improvement.
Yakuza 2:
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58209/33e7239d-d9a7-4a45-90d1-87793e7d0e38/Yak2.PNG
Kiwami 2:
https://files.facepunch.com/forum/upload/58209/d6a1a3de-2fb8-4221-a0c5-260a1c6a5e16/Kiw2.PNG
Even though it was a small area I liked the amount they let you explore, and I wasn't aware they removed it in YK2. It felt refreshing after spending such a long time in both Kamurocho and Sotenbori
They changed a character and made him more inconspicuous. He's much more believable as an ally as a middle aged man who has obviously been loyal for a long time. In the end it's a miniscule difference so I wonder why that's such a noteworthy change unless you really loved his character in the original.
As for the stabbing scene I don't particularly love either song but I prefer the new one over the weird Mariachi music. The stab sound isn't particularly shocking either as the scene pretty obviously shows Kiryu getting stabbed even if you don't see the knife in the shot.
This isn't a case like MGS1 versus Twin Snakes. I think if you put nostalgia aside you'll see that you're massively inflating small differences between the original and the remake.
And that's why it's unnecessary! It's just a comical addition and treats the audience dumb instead of letting the scene sink in naturally.
In your opinion they feel more clunky. There was plenty of times in the previous game where a street fight would lock me into a small area giving me very little room to maneuver with hitting an invisible wall. Yeah, if you send someone flying they won't instantly get up, that's a pro in my opinion. The robotic animations of enemies being knocked down in previous games are terrible and look awful.
You complain that K1 has 1:1 animations to the original but then complain that K2 doesn't? K2 went with more subtle facial animations, if you prefer the original ones, okay, fine, but the difference is minute and only noticeable if you choose to watch side by side footage multiple times.
People like to throw around the whole "they cut a WHOLE AREA!" spiel but it was like 2 blocks with barely nothing to do there. Sure, it would've been nice to have but there's so much to do in Sotenbori that it makes sense to shift the small amount of content that that area had into it.
They got rid of a massive puddle and changed the lighting a little bit. You're also showing two screenshots looking in two totally different directions.
They literally change the camera angle a few seconds later to the knife sticking out of his gut. Yes, you can argue that it's a pointless addition but holding it up as one of the big reasons why you should skip this because it's an "inferior" game compared to the incredibly dated 13 year old PS2 version is insane to me.
If you had a newcomer to the series play the original and the remake I guarantee they wouldn't prefer the original. Making such a huge deal out of a sound effect is 100% nostalgia talking.
i honestly just dont enjoy the dragon engine's combat, it's more fluid than 0's but much less responsive and snappy and i much prefer my gameplay like that
the original yakuza 2's gameplay is clunky but i dont consider kiwami 2's gameplay that much better
likewise i also dont like the dragon engine's graphics, while at times it looks stunning, in areas where the lighting is flat (which is most areas) the models lose their visual detail easily, making for a weird contrast of areas and characters looking really flat and cheap half the time
the improved exploration is a plus though, that i definitely agree with
i dont consider slightly less expressive characters or one character being changed from young to old that big a deal, i think they're a shame but the loss of the unique tone is really what makes kiwami 2 inferior to the original for me because that's a massive part of why yakuza 2 left such an effect on me that it stands out in a long (and frankly bloated) series even after games like 0 blasting it out of the water with far improved gameplay and almost as good a story (though a much weaker ending)
if i had just played kiwami 2 instead of yakuza 2 i probably would've considered it just another good yakuza game because it loses a lot of that special feeling
and nostalgia has nothing to do with it, at least for me, i had never touched the series until a couple years ago
I've watched gameplay but I never had super interest in Yakuza because they were console games and I've never had a PS3 until recently so I sure don't have any nostalgia goggles on because I never grew up with the game as most others have, I made sure to play the original 2 games before moving to Y0.
The character in the original Yakuza 2 is anything but loyal, his entire character shows that he's a young and ambitious yakuza, it's what culminates through the entire story all the way up to the ending, his plot to try and take over all 3 organizations involved in the story after they're all weak from fighting each other, how is that not a noteworthy change? It's more believable to have someone young blinded by the thought of succesfully taking control of 3 powerful organisations
Why should the scene be made worse just because to you and others it's obvious? I've watched enough media so I knew what happened when the slow mo kicked in in the original, did that make me appreciate the sheer power of that one single scene with its music? Fuck no, I loved it, It's pure Kino. Just as theres people who know what happens, theres people who wont, and the way the scene is done, the music, choreography, camerawork and song of choice compliment the scene in the original and make it pop, the story is a crime drama and the scene nails it, not a Marvel movie.
I'm not nitpicking tiny insignificant details like how Kiryu's hairline has an M shape in the original, his chin hair is more and the "sideburns" longer, or how he has next to non existent wrinkles in his scowl.
I'm pointing out genuine criticism over significant visual changes to a story character, and Nachy has pointed out even more.
Based on what I'm reading in this thread I made the right decision by playing the original Yakuza 2 instead of waiting for the remake a few months ago.
Now the question for me is if I should wait for the PS4/PC version of Yakuza 5 or just play it on the PS3. I really wanna finish the series off because I've loved almost all of them so far.
depends, does 30fps bother you? if it does, wait for a rerelease, if it doesn't, there's no need to wait since the only differences in the 3-5 rereleases are higher resolution and framerate afaik, they're not full remakes like the kiwami games since the PS3 games aged better
My point is that they make it more of a twist whereas a young, power thirsty Yakuza is a predictable and transparent trope.
You're missing my point entirely. The sound sting is so insignificant and brief that I wouldn't care whether it was there or not. You're treating it like they completely changed the scene versus adding a sound effect.
If we're talking the original Yakuza 1, sure there's a lot of flaws in the original combat including the lack of lock on and the tendency to hit air because of it. However 2 provides a straightforward directional system and allows you to maneuver better and get out of crowds easily. If you're button mashing that's where you'll find yourself stuck in a corner. And it's not the fact they instantly get up or not, it's the fact that the physics adds an extra delay to the animation already. Compare to how you can attack downed enemies in 0 and then back to 6 and Kiwami 2 and it's an overall different feeling.
And I complained with both. Kiwami 1 and Kiwami 2 uses the original animations and never properly tweaked them to their new higher polycount model counterparts. Thus resulting in a stiffer look and just reeks of laziness because if they spent a bit more time with them even without touching the rest of the bones in the animation it would had worked better overall. I don't even think a side by side comparison is necessary, Kiwami 2 from the onset really shows how cheaply made it is because other games that came out in the same era manages to convey better facial animations, even budget-made ones. Not to mention newcomers most likely have played 6 first and then going to Kiwami 2 will make those rushed copy paste animations more notable.
And that's also a pretty harsh statement, it was a small area that still added a sense of liveliness and character to the overall environments. The quests that were swapped around in Kiwami 2 worked better in the original, and it was a nice piece of the overall package that made Yakuza 2 a memorable experience. And if it was so small surely it wouldn't had been an issue to include it in the remake?
Also massive puddle and 'changed the lighting a bit?' It's practically a different (and blander) place now, removing the crowds of yakuza watching and changing the overall tone of the scene. The fight in Kiwami 2 looks a lot deader because it's just an empty lot. I can excuse massive changes in remakes if it's for a different artistic vision for better or worse, but this is just also another example of lazy development. That's like if Black Mesa finally releases Xen and instead of the ambitious remake they're doing or a faithful recreation, they just add a bunch of floating rocks in HD and you jump around until you get to the final boss.
Also pretty presumptuous statement right there. The opposite can happen where newcomers can actually feel very underwhelmed on how cheap and rushed Kiwami 2 is and miss out on 'all the hype' about Yakuza, especially 2 being considered as one of the strongest plot points in the series. Don't underestimate how important consistent tones are in games, Yakuza managed to capture a niche audience for a reason even before 0 blew up and gave it a bigger audience in the west. It's not about the fancy graphical fidelity, high profile Japanese actors and mashing buttons until someone gets knocked out. It's the way the games manage to convey a serious and engaging plot with deliberate choices despite re-using assets and developing under a shoestring budget, while packaging all that up with a variety of gameplay outlets spread around the game world, setting up a sandbox that's small in stature but deep in content, balancing a dramatic tone with a comedic one masterfully.
Starting from 6 they already have scrapped some features from the previous games, replaced well known and long time characters for new characters who are played by high profile actors, and unleashed it in an engine they're barely familiar with resulting in the mess it was. Kiwami 2 despite improving some of the flaws from 6, still carries over and even manages to make things worse by further cutting corners and providing a relatively different, if not inferior overall experience. It's not nostalgia talking at all. If a game is good, it lasts through time despite its age. Yakuza 1 is something I tell people to at least try, and if they can't stomach the combat, then I just tell them to go with 0 the Kiwami 1. However, Yakuza 2 is a good game and is still very much is today, and that's why it's still something people can still easily recommend because it established a lot of things the series is well loved for. Things were deliberately directed, designed and developed and it really shows how much love was put into it, which is the opposite with Kiwami 2.
they did completely change the scene, the change in music completely changed the tone and atmosphere of the scene, the stab sound is just the "star wars special edition" icing on the cake that shows how little they seemed to understand why the original scene is the way it is
The music change and added sound effect change the entire dynamic of the scene, the original makes smart use of the sounds it has in the scene. YK2 ruins the atmosphere by inserting an unecessary sound effect, someone working on it who watched too many films with the Schlink sound when people get stabbed looked at it and said "This is wrong, there should be sound when someone is stabbed"
Tropes are not necessarily bad, the young power thirsty antagonist trope is played well in Y2. The trope where films have to add the Schlink sound effect to tell when someone gets stabbed because they smear vaseline on the camera and shake it so much you wouldn't be able to tell an ass from a face, inserted into the cinematography of the original ruins it, it treats the audience like they're idiots, the slow mo is a subtle way to queue the audience that something is not right, and rewards those that pick it up.
I was talking about the comment in every pre-Dragon Engine game. I remember multiple instances in 0 where I'd be locked into a tiny area with Mr. Shakedown and just have no chance because of invisible walls and objects blocking my movement.
For me it was incredibly easy to hit enemies on the ground in K2. Obviously it was slightly more difficult because they no longer just plop down in a static position but that just made it more fun imo.
In K1 the animations were incredibly dated and very, very obviously just copy and pasted. Now whether because K2 I never had any real issues with the animations where I thought they looked poor. Honestly, I thought they looked pretty good compared to some other current gen titles I've played that have had atrocious animations.
It's a small area but it would've been time consuming and expensive to remake it. Why? Because making PS2 level graphics is much easier and less expensive than making current gen graphics.
Obviously it would've been nice to have but considering how they made Sotenbori just for this game adding another locale (even a small one) would've probably been an undertaking for modest returns.
They changed the weather of the scene and got rid of a crowd. Considering how many fights have large crowds and how there is rainy weather at other times in the story it's obviously a design decision versus not being able to display crowds/rain/puddles.
Okay, if you dislike the direction the series is heading and the past few games, fair enough. I think there's growing pains in adapting to a new engine and I think you should try not to be too harsh as Kiwami 2 has improved upon 6 and Judgment looks to improve on Kiwami 2.
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