There is a lot of talk going back and forth about rock bases, elevator bases, C4 costs, raiding vs defense, and a number of other concerns. These are all important issues but when you really break things down almost all of the problems with the game result in one single question: How do you balance groups vs solo?
The short answer is that you probably can't, at least not directly. If you try to balance things for clans and groups then solo players and small groups will get completely screwed or have no chance to join the fun. If you balance things for small groups and solo players then clans and large groups will be invincible and unstoppable. You can tweak things how you want but bigger, stronger bases and larger amounts of better weapons will almost certainly be a better option. Unless you add a drawback that is...
Remember Caretakers, the robotic NPCs that we saw concepts for a while ago? What if they were the opposite of the Keepers in Mass Effect? Instead of maintaining the structures and technology that they know (while completely ignoring the people, structures, and technology they are unfamiliar with) like the Keepers did, the Caretakers in Rust would do the opposite and would ignore the things they were familiar with and expected, the monuments of their failed civilization and the nature and life forms of the world, while going about their never-ending task of protecting that civilization and cleaning the world of any unknown structures and technology which doesn't "belong". Post-apocalyptic police janitors, if you will.
The idea here is that the Caretakers would seek out and destroy the largest and strongest buildings (or concentrations of buildings), the most advanced equipment (whether in a box or on a player), and the largest stockpiles of resources that exist. They would also ignore almost everything and everyone else. A Caretaker would ignore the naked stone hatchet guy next to him in order to walk across the map and go after that 3x5x4 that has 20 C4 in it. It will ignore your stone 2x2 in order to go after that concentration of 10 1x1 armored sheds. It will ignore those 5 guys with stone spears to go after the 1 guy with an AK.
The Caretakers could come in different shapes and sizes. I imagine all of them being fairly slow and actually somewhat weak. At the same time they would be relentless and incredibly difficult to destroy. It might take hours for the slower ones to arrive at a base and many more to destroy it. Perhaps even days. You would have plenty of warning that one was coming your way and plenty of time to try and stop it once it arrived. Despite that, it still might take all your C4 or all your ammo just to have even a small chance at stopping one. It wouldn't be a death sentence but it would be a very difficult situation to be in. Some groups might thrive on the challenge and others might try their best to avoid it.
The best part is that it would be an in-universe way to cancel out a lot of the group vs solo balance issues. Being in a group, having a strong base, good equipment, and lots of resources would still be good. The difference is that there would also be a drawback for having too much of those exact things. A large and nearly impenetrable base is great against other players but it would make you a magnet for Caretakers. You'd spend so much time and effort trying to defend against them that you wouldn't really be able to dominate the server like you can now. Alternatively, you could split up your huge fortress and equipment into multiple smaller bases and travel in smaller less-equipped groups in order to avoid the wrath of the Caretakers, but now your smaller more isolated bases and teams are vulnerable to the rest of the server, to the very same smaller groups that otherwise would have no chance against you.
The details of course would need to be play-tested and tweaked (nobody wants a world where everyone has a 1x1 shack and basic gear) but in general I think this would make a HUGE difference and really go a long way towards leveling the playing field between different sized groups of players and also players with different amounts of time to play. People wouldn't get bored from being too powerful, nor frustrated from losing everything each time they log off. It would give everyone a much better chance of participating in the game and enjoying their time in in, regardless of for how long or with how many players it may be.
So powerful indie/solo players are screwed, basically.
The idea here is not to punish successful play but to prevent things from getting out of hand.
It's supposed to prevent the situations where a large group makes what is essentially an impenetrable fortress and stockpile of weapons and equipment that nobody on the server can possibly compete against. 90% of the players and groups would be untouched. It's the 10% or even fewer at the top which would have to fend off the Caretakers or split up into multiple smaller bases and stockpiles that are scattered around the map and small enough to not draw too much attention (and also be an easier target for the solo players and small groups that would otherwise get dominated and have no chance).
I did an alternate concept to the version FP had on Trello, along with an explanation of how they could work. It's similar to what you talk about, but more even handed because it will follow any player - not just big groups.
[URL="http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1453316"]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1453316[/URL]
I've seen that post before, yes, but the whole point of my suggestion is that it is NOT even handed.
If the Caretakers went after any base or player, especially the first one they see, it will make things even harder for the new/low players and create an even bigger gap between the haves and have nots. Not only would the new players have to worry about everyone else on the server but now they'd have to worry about some robot wandering into them and going on an unstoppable rampage. Or they are quick and beat all the other players to a drop, a chance to get ahead fast, only to be slaughtered by the Caretaker waiting for them.
For me the point of the Caretakers is to reduce the gap between players. The weak players, small groups, or solo players already have enough trouble getting dominated by everyone and raided every night. The Caretakers should ignore these players and their small humble bases and equipment. It's the guys who have everything, a huge base and 50 C4 and enough guns and ammo and materials to dominate everyone and everything with no real risk at all. The Caretakers should go after these structures/players/groups, the top few percent, to essentially prevent any one person or group from becoming TOO powerful. Caretakers would be an anti-monopoly device.
At the same time it's not a hard artificial limit. It's not saying that you can't have a large group, a huge upgraded base, or tons of weapons and gear. All this does it make it more difficult to do so. You need to spend more time, effort, and resources to defend those luxuries, or you could split things up to avoid the Caretakers but now you have multiple smaller bases which are more vulnerable to the other players on the server. It levels the playing field between different groups and levels of players while still allowing the better groups and players to maintain the advantage that they are able to earn.
[QUOTE=BrockSamsonFW;47638477]The Caretakers should go after these things, the top few percent, to essentially prevent any one person or group from becoming TOO powerful.[/QUOTE]
In other words, you want to introduce a game mechanic to arbitrarily punish successful players.
How would it determine what is "too powerful"? Is it when you get C4? When you get > 5 C4? When you have more weapons than there are residents of the building? Since bows' silence can make them far more devastating than firearms, do they count? If a new solo player spends the day harvesting barrels and winds up with 3 bows in his little 1x3 shack, thus giving him TRIPLE the weapons:player ratio of the megateam up the hill who has 10 guns for 10 players, should he be attacked? What if the weapons / C4 / resources are spread out over lots of little shacks all over the map?
I admin two servers where the powerful players frequently help out Newmans with advice and resources. Are you saying they deserve to be punished for that?
There is always going to be inequality in Rust. That's just how it is. People who have better aim will be better at shooting than people with poorer aim. People who band together and employ good strategy will be better at fighting than people who don't. People who pool their resources and build a strong fortress will be better at surviving raids than people who don't. Your suggestion clearly states that these people are "too powerful" and deserve to be punished.
Fortunately, Rust already has a solution built in. If you're constantly getting squashed on that server, find another one that's more in line with your skill set. There's no shame in that.
This perceived imbalance is something that's common to any persistent world online game. Better players and large groups will always fare better than small groups and solo players. That's just the way it is. Much like it is in real life. And like real life, you'll fare better if you team up with friends. Got no friends that play Rust? Find people on your server and team up with them. Befriend people that are already in groups and join in with them.
If you like playing as a lone wolf but can't get ahead, then you should consider switching to a quieter server where you won't get repeatedly crushed by larger groups.
After yesterday's wipe, 5 of us went in. In a matter of a few hours, we had a 4 x 4 x 6 built, completely stone inside and out with the first 2 floors completely armoured. No base is unraidable, but at least now we've got a pretty secure base set up. Still need to armour the rest, but now we can now focus on building up our cache of weapons, C4, etc. Playing alone, I never would have been able to get even near that much done in that short a time span.
Like anything, many hands make light work. The game is made for teaming up. I don't see how adding something that punish people that are successful would be helpful. That totally goes against the sandbox paradigm.
It wouldn't be a hard limit like you suggest.
Caretakers would target structures and gear relative to everything else on the server. "Too powerful" is relative to everyone else and therefore is decided by everyone on the server. It would vary from server to server and even on a single server over time. On a new server with new players "too powerful" might be when you rush to build a stone 3x4 while everyone else is still in 1x1 wood shacks. On an established server with large groups "too powerful" might be an armored 10x10 with 500 C4 in it. It's relative to the other structures and stockpiles on the server so it's simply what "stands out" compared to the average.
This isn't punishing you for being successful, this is punishing you for concentrating that success in a way that makes it impossible for anyone on the server to compete. If you want to build a giant fortress and stockpile 1000 C4 then go for it, but while you're busy defending it against the Caretakers the rest of the server has a better chance to progress and possibly compete against you. If you split your success into multiple "average" bases that don't stand out from everyone else then the Caretakers will leave you alone, but those multiple smaller bases are easier to raid, so again, everyone else has a chance to compete.
[editline]1st May 2015[/editline]
Of course I do understand and in some ways even agree with the harshness of the world. If you play alone of course you won't do as well as people who team up. Some groups or players being more powerful than others is totally fine and how it should be.
The problem is that the gap is too large. The weaker players get raided every night and can never advance or compete. The larger groups are so powerful that they have no competition and end up bored. It's simply not fun for either side.
[QUOTE=BrockSamsonFW;47638734]It wouldn't be a hard limit like you suggest.[/quote]
I didn't suggest a hard limit. I'm simply asking you what you feel constitutes "too powerful".
You suggested it might be because I've built a stone 3x4 while everyone else is in a wood 1x1. That's just gameplay; not everyone plays at the same speed. A stone 3x4 is in no way unraidable, and frankly it's no more secure than a wood 3x4. The only difference is that it's going to take a few more tools to break through. Put 2-3 players with a handful of axes / hatchets each (or one player with a lot of patience) and that wall is coming down.
[QUOTE=BrockSamsonFW;47638734]This isn't punishing you for being successful, this is punishing you for concentrating that success in a way that makes it impossible for anyone on the server to compete. The problem is that the gap is too large. The weaker players get raided every night and can never advance or compete. The larger groups are so powerful that they have no competition and end up bored. It's simply not fun for either side.[/QUOTE]
It sounds like you're playing on some pretty crappy servers, or that maybe you don't really understand how Rust (or any other multiplayer game) works. There is literally nothing stopping you from forming your own team to take out the bigger team. If that's too difficult for you, then maybe Rust isn't a good fit for you. Or maybe you should try playing on another server. Or maybe you should try playing with a more evasive strategy.
I don't want to excel on a server because the game sent some "enforcer" to beat up on the players who got ahead faster than me. I want to do it because I'm good at the game.
Regardless how how impose limits, you're defeating the purpose of it being a sandbox game.
[QUOTE=BrockSamsonFW;47638477]I've seen that post before, yes, but the whole point of my suggestion is that it is NOT even handed.[/QUOTE]
Well that's just ridiculous, and completely unbalanced.
If caretakers targeted a player in their range then wouldn't it make sense that a larger group with more people would have a greater chance to attract it's attention? Also, couldn't a solo/individual befriend a larger group and gain access to part of their building, then get the attention of a caretaker and lead it back to their base?
Imposing arbitrary rules to punish groups and success is lame.
A better solution would be to create something like disease (mentioned in some other thread) that thrives more in larger groups and requires the production of antibiotics. This way you could grow your group, but maintaining it would require a group effort.
I personally think it is pretty close to balanced as it is.
I am a solo player and am VERY successful due to the fact that I know how and know what to do to be successful. I do not need a group to make my game time more pleasurable.
And just to show what an average week is like,this is a screen of my Wednesday night raid ,which I ALWAYS do solo. (fyi,yes...it is a modded server but everyone has the same resources and yes, I did craft all that C4 which was half of what I brought,still 2 solid days of crafting)
[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/bepsn.jpg[/IMG]
Still think a solo player needs help?
Another option may be a form of taxation with relation to building maintenance and crafting.
Suggestions have been made about a tool cupboard that you need to stock with resources for upkeep of your base. Good idea because the stock pile could be raided as well.
If there are many newman Steam IDs in the vicinity of the cupboard or who are authorized on doors locks, the cost to craft and stock upkeep cupboards while within the cupboard/door lock sphere of influence would be much much greater based on group size. Not to the point of severely punishing, but to put a hurt on and make it increasing difficult to maintain large mega groups.
Like they do in Norway, punish the rich based on income. Traffic tickets are in the tens of thousands for those with wealth.
I love the Scandinavians and their justice mentality.
[QUOTE=lordrushx1;47639778]I personally think it is pretty close to balanced as it is.
I am a solo player and am VERY successful due to the fact that I know how and know what to do to be successful. I do not need a group to make my game time more pleasurable.
And just to show what an average week is like,this is a screen of my Wednesday night raid ,which I ALWAYS do solo. (fyi,yes...it is a modded server but everyone has the same resources and yes, I did craft all that C4 which was half of what I brought,still 2 solid days of crafting)
Still think a solo player needs help?[/QUOTE]
Is this one of those 10x gather rate instacraft servers? This isn't a fair representation of solo vs large groups. The amount of time (and furnaces) needed to crank out that much C4 by one person on a vanilla server is overwhelmingly not possible for a number of reasons.
It was a x8 server frank,yes. At the same time, this cannot be generalized to one particular server due to the fact that when and IF they add protectors it will still be the same across all servers (unless of course there is a way that an admin can remove them)
The scale might be different, pending the servers but the balance for each individual server is the same for each player playing on that particular server
[QUOTE=lordrushx1;47639778]I personally think it is pretty close to balanced as it is.
I am a solo player and am VERY successful due to the fact that I know how and know what to do to be successful. I do not need a group to make my game time more pleasurable.
And just to show what an average week is like,this is a screen of my Wednesday night raid ,which I ALWAYS do solo. (fyi,yes...it is a modded server but everyone has the same resources and yes, I did craft all that C4 which was half of what I brought,still 2 solid days of crafting)
[IMG]http://i60.tinypic.com/bepsn.jpg[/IMG]
Still think a solo player needs help?[/QUOTE]
How many different Newman's do you own? No way you are doing all that resource farming and crafting using one Steam ID in 2 days. I was at it on a med pop server for over 6-8 hours and only got to 4 C4 with 4 furnaces. if it takes about 45min. per C4 you are looking at at least 30+ straight hours. If you are, you must be on a low pop server, because farming that much resources on a high pop server, which I believe is always the reference for solo vs. clan, would definitely get you killed. I am sure that processing gunpowder while farming on high pop servers as a solo is high risk.
Not saying its impossible, but you may have to start your own NOOB training server and become a benevolent lord. Perhaps I should just be motivated by this optimism :)
[QUOTE=spiritchill;47639888]How many different Newman's do you own? No way you are doing all that resource farming and crafting using one Steam ID in 2 days. [/QUOTE]
On a modded server with 8x gather and insta-craft, this isn't terribly difficult for someone who's good at Rust. In many cases, raiders aren't out hacking rocks and trees to get their resources. They're raiding other people and getting multiple times what they'd get in the same amount of time than if they were farming.
On unmodded servers, I've taken 45 mins to break into a base and walked out with enough stuff to make a dozen C4 charges - many times what I would have gotten had I been hunting and mining sulfur nodes for 45 mins.
[QUOTE=lordrushx1;47639854]It was a x8 server frank,yes. At the same time, this cannot be generalized to one particular server due to the fact that when and IF they add protectors it will still be the same across all servers (unless of course there is a way that an admin can remove them)
The scale might be different, pending the servers but the balance for each individual server is the same for each player playing on that particular server[/QUOTE]
I would argue that while it seems even it's not. You can not amass that much C4 on a vanilla server playing solo. Therefore you can never just brute force your way into a large base.
Large groups are almost completely immune to traditional raiding techniques if they're attempted by a solo player.
[QUOTE=spiritchill;47639888] Perhaps I should just be motivated by this optimism :)[/QUOTE]
And you should be =OP Only one toon...and yes, it is a very tedious task that CAN be overcome.
I wouldnt say that the server I play on is low pop but it isn't [B]highly[/B] populated either.
I run with about 8-10 furnaces. If you set up your furnaces correctly,it again,can be done.
Last week was a good one for me as I got bp's for timed and explosive within the first hour of a wipe.
As well, I can be set up running stone tier 4x4x1 in 45 minutes on average and this is what I emphasize to all new players. Get established STAT.
[QUOTE=Crunchmeister;47639908]On a modded server with 8x gather and insta-craft, this isn't terribly difficult for someone who's good at Rust. In many cases, raiders aren't out hacking rocks and trees to get their resources. They're raiding other people and getting multiple times what they'd get in the same amount of time than if they were farming.
On unmodded servers, I've taken 45 mins to break into a base and walked out with enough stuff to make a dozen C4 charges - many times what I would have gotten had I been hunting and mining sulfur nodes for 45 mins.[/QUOTE]
I agree this can be done. It's a rare score though to get that much. And you better use it quickly before someone raids you!
[QUOTE=frank_walls;47639923]I agree this can be done. It's a rare score though to get that much. And you better use it quickly before someone raids you![/QUOTE]
Not every raid is this successful. I'd say on most, I've used more C4 than materials I got back to replace what I used or merely break even on the C4 / sulfur. But usually it balances itself out in some way in terms of other resources, weapons, etc that I manage to get.
That said, it's also about choosing your targets carefully. A little reconaissance / observation of a potential target helps.
[QUOTE=frank_walls;47639913]I would argue that while it seems even it's not. You can not amass that much C4 on a vanilla server playing solo. Therefore you can never just brute force your way into a large base.
Large groups are almost completely immune to traditional raiding techniques if they're attempted by a solo player.[/QUOTE]
Totally agree with you frank, as I have played many times on a vanilla server. However, no matter how you look at it people are still on the same scale as you. They still require the same amount of time (yes, the more people you have crafting the better your time at success will be) to craft and resource.
It's all about time.
If you spend all your time building (which alot of people do) then where is your resourcing? Tis why I dont bother as a solo player building these outrageous bases. As a solo player you should find the best area to get a base up and push as fast as you can to get it up. Simple but make it effective.
[QUOTE=lordrushx1;47639972] As a solo player you should find the best area to get a base up and push as fast as you can to get it up. Simple but make it effective.[/QUOTE]
Kinda like a permanent wave or presto instant base. Like a counterpart to the signals sent out by the mega base fly by nights.
[QUOTE=spiritchill;47640047]Kinda like a permanent wave or presto instant base. Like a counterpart to the signals sent out by the mega base fly by nights.[/QUOTE]
Ha! You got me! =0p
To help balance things alittle more i think its important people need to be able to know who has raided their base when they are offline or to far away to see who did it, so the more peoples bases a large group raids the more enemies *they naturally make*.
After being raided large groups don't have a issue when it comes to getting revenge on the wrong people but when it comes to smaller groups lashing out after being raided at the wrong people it just further more works to larger groups benefit.
[QUOTE=Kowie;47640839]To help balance things alittle more i think its important people need to be able to know who has raided their base when they are offline or to far away to see who did it, so the more peoples bases a large group raids the more enemies *they naturally make*.
After being raided large groups don't have a issue when it comes to getting revenge on the wrong people but when it comes to smaller groups lashing out after being raided at the wrong people it just further more works to larger groups benefit.[/QUOTE]
How the hell would they implement something like that? Would a huge floating sign show up in your base saying "XYZ clan raided your base"? Honestly, it's a terrible suggestion.
[QUOTE=Ajax0;47640865]How the hell would they implement something like that? Would a huge floating sign show up in your base saying "XYZ clan raided your base"? Honestly, it's a terrible suggestion.[/QUOTE]
No need to emotionally spazz out, i'm sure its possible to think up some kind of way to implement it.
[QUOTE=Kowie;47640928]No need to emotionally spazz out, i'm sure its possible to think up some kind of way to implement it.[/QUOTE]
Yes, because disagreeing with terrible ideas makes me a spaz. Very nice reasoning.
If it's possible to think up a way to implement it, why don't you come up with one? You can't make a ridiculous suggestion like that, and have no idea on how to properly implement it.
[QUOTE=Ajax0;47640996]Yes, because disagreeing with terrible ideas makes me a spaz. Very nice reasoning.
If it's possible to think up a way to implement it, why don't you come up with one? You can't make a ridiculous suggestion like that, and have no idea on how to properly implement it.[/QUOTE]
Saying rediculous stuff like "How the hell would they implement something like that? Would a huge floating sign show up in your base saying XYZ clan raided your base,? Honestly, it's a terrible suggestion" is over the top spazzing out in my book, id rather focus on having a discussion not injecting drama into the converstation, i don't mind you disagreeing with me its the dramatic straw man argument way you are going about it.
The way i see it we have cameras we have keycode locks = off the top of my head we could have some kind of crude low tech surveillance device that we could place a loot room that could take pictures when that room gets raided.
There is no need for me to know how it could be implemented im sure someone else could think of a way better way to make it fit into the game.
Knowing who has raided your base would help improve two situations a. the whole "getting raided while offline" would be a little more bearable(honestly getting raided and not knowing who did it just sucks arse, revenge is fun not knowing just sucks the air out of you) and b. it would help make larger groups feel the consequences when they raid alot of peoples bases.
Garry has made it clear that he doesn't like this sort of automatic player identification; that not knowing is part of the game. You're [i]supposed[/i] to be unsure.
[url]http://garry.tv/2013/06/21/the-story-of-rust/[/url]
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