Cupboards - PLEASE DON'T - Rust

[url]http://admin.playrust.com/item/edit/14269/[/url] Please, for the love of God, don't do this... There is so much more potential for griefing with this system then the current system. It's not hard to stop people from griefing your base, there's plenty of information on how to do it, but adding cupboards is NOT the right approach. Any time you see a new house going up the first thing people will do is build a 1x1 lvl 6 wall near it with a cupboard just to troll. People will build floating bridges across the world with cupboards every few meters to prevent you from building up to it or building around it. People are assholes and this gives them so much more griefing potential that it makes me question if anyone thought this through. If people want these claim zones they can play modded servers, but please don't add cupboards to all servers.

[URL="https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/2ld6c7/tool_cupboard_allow_only_you_or_your_friends_to/cltnk7k"]garry responded to the thread on Reddit:[/URL] [QUOTE=garry]Players don't really own this though. You can still break into someone's house and destroy or clear their tool cupboard so you're the only person allowed to build. It's true that I don't like these systems, and I want to avoid them wherever we can. In this case it's to prevent a very specific thing, players building ladders/stairs on your house to gain access. It's a problem I'm hoping we'll solve some other way further down the line that might make this system redundant. But in the meantime this serves to make the game playable, and lets us add building components like ladders without worrying that they'll be easily exploited.[/QUOTE] Consider this a temporary (garry hopes) solution to the #1 non-technical-problem-non-hacker complaint for the last month.

Appreciate the reply, elixwhitetail, but the issue I have is that this supposed fix wont even really fix that problem. People can still build a giant stair-bridge consisting of floorplans/railings/walls to get above your base in minutes and jump down to your ceiling. The only thing that this will really "fix" is people being able to build walls in front of doors which people should know by now to put foundation steps outside their doorways to prevent this. On the other hand the ways to exploit this to grief heavily outnumber what it is preventing.

Come back with screenshots of said behaviour and explanations of what they're doing, and I'm sure garry will refine the system. The game is in alpha; don't worry too much about whether it'll be fun right now. Yes, it's important to change things when they're not working well, but don't take it too seriously. Development is a slow, iterative process, and garry's making a quick fix to try and mitigate a primary griefing tactic.

wait it out. it could become an actual gameplay component, but currently its really a hotfix. something people seem to forget is that griefing, whilst annoying, is playtesting too. it shows them what can be done with an introduced mechanic, and any balancing they need to make to rectify issues. personally i don't get why a cupboard would provide any kind of claim on an area, but what the hell. would much rather a bone temple that costs 10 human skulls lol

Fair enough. Guess i'll just have to report in how it works after next update is released. By the way, does anyone know if the next update will be this Friday?

been coming more like saturday the last few months, but yeah, every "friday" the devblog is dropped;)

I think it is an awful idea as well but im not going to outright tell them not to try it. It's alpha, im totally willing to give it a shot. It won't take long for players to prove weather or not it works. Garry DOES listen to the players you guys just need to test his ideas for him. That's what we're here for.

And the idea of a stair bridge is a bit silly. If you make you ceilings level 6 then they may as well jst bash a wall. Raiding isnt going to be easy and thats a good thing, there should be work required to get to someone elses stuff

There is no real point to raid but just for the fun of putting someone steps behind again. I mean, If you really think about it, you can gather the resources and such in the amount of time you spend raiding. It's just something to do in the game to have fun at on the pvp side to things.

But most raids happen when people are offline so wheres the pvp apsect in that

How do we know that its not a 50 meter Cylinder instead of a 50 meter bubble. A cylinder would reach to the skylimit, which would prevent people from, building over your house. Also a limit to how many cupboards each player can have built at any time is easy to make too. Don't worry, This cupboard solves many more problems then it creates, and personally i cant wait for it.

Well lets try and brainstorm a better solution. Here is the markers (I believe) need to be hit: -Prevent griefing: Stop stairs/ladders from being built onto the existing house. -Prevent griefing: Stop things from being built in front of doors. -Allow for upgrades/additions If I have missed any points that the cupboards cover, please list them so we can modify any idea accordingly. -------------- My original idea to replace cupboards was only allowing frames to be added to frames. This hit all those markers. However, Garry has said due to the changes to the building system, this won't be feasible. So without knowing what the new system is, these idea will be highly subjective, but I think it needs to be done. [B]Building View[/B] Off the top of m head, what about a "building view" that only exists for the foundation/floor you are standing on. Nothing can be added from outside because you are required to be standing on the structure to build. [B]Tear down[/B] The previously mention system of allowing frames to only attach to frames, requiring tearing down the current wall/foundation to the frame. Adapt this to whatever the new building system is. Example: Sockets If the new building system is based on sockets, make the sockets only available on at level 1. [B]Caps[/B] Allow players to add "caps" to their foundations to disallow additions. These can be leveled up and would have to be torn down in order to make additions. Foundation stairs and foundation spikes are 2 examples of foundation caps

Good points. A limit of four would solve most fears. For allows a play to build a large base ot a bunch of smalls yet no one would waste them trying to greif people or at least most would not bother, theres no hope for some in the community sadly

[QUOTE=Tevax;46424068]Also a limit to how many cupboards each player can have built at any time is easy to make too.[/QUOTE] this makes a terrible idea even worse. Why should I now be limited, arbitrarily, to how many structures I can build/secure?

[QUOTE=utilitron;46424122]this makes a terrible idea even worse. Why should I now be limited, arbitrarily, to how many structures I can build/secure?[/QUOTE] Because we've all seen the eyesores you build, and frankly, we're tired of our property values going down just so you could build all over the map.

I have a feeling the building support system Garry is working on might be able to help make a modular radius based on building size when uses in conjunction with the tool cupboard. Let him work.

If the effect of the cupboards overlaps then a griefer could place their own cupboards around the perimeter of the builders cupboard-effect and then the builder would not be able to do anything within their build zone until they knock out all there griefers cupboards posted around the perimeter. in order to stop that from happening it would seem Gary would need to code the game so the server would keep track of the order in which cupboards were placedrelative to a specific geographic area which seems like a lot of extra work some additional strain on server side resources and which of course, like the original idea, makes no sense at all in real life terms. what exactly is the briefing issue that Gary is attempting to hotfix with this proposal? Is it to stop people from jumping on ceiling? If so why shouldn't people be able to do that? If you can build a 40 story building why can't I build a 40 story staircase going to the top of your building? if the problem is that people are griefing doors closed why don't we just have a form of foundation that cannot be built on?

The 40 story stair case will be impossible soon when the building system is fixed, you could build a tower adjacent to mine and then try to jump over and if someone wants to spend that time and energy then go for it. The greifing that is a problem is people glitching in using wall glitch and building walls in front of doors etc. i had some a hole glitch into my base, destroy my stairs but the. They built lvl 6 walls. Front of all of my doors so i was pretty much SOL. Was easier to find another server and rebuild than to bash through the walls as i had a large lvl 6 base

[QUOTE=Dionysus9;46424824]what exactly is the briefing issue that Gary is attempting to hotfix with this proposal? Is it to stop people from jumping on ceiling?[/QUOTE] Could you try reading the second post in this thread, which is garry's own words about this?

isn't it easy to just make the same thing with DOORS?? to protect ppl from having a wall next to the door. Cupboards will ruin a big part of the game... What if I like 2 act like a ninja? to get into houses through windows and rob an unlucky house owner, kill him with his own shotgun?) Don't turn the game to "The Sims: postapocalyptic"...

Guys I think it will definitely be a failed concept, but like Elixwhitetail said, we will have to just wait and see and submit our feedback based off of how well it functions.

Its very unrealistic to think that someone can walk up to tour house, build a set of stairs then climb through a third story window and you do t hear a thing except the shitgun blast! I have no problem with people trying weird stuff while i am online but its not a raid to use BS tactics to get into a base and murder someone in their sleep.

[QUOTE=Dionysus9;46424824]If the effect of the cupboards overlaps then a griefer could place their own cupboards around the perimeter of the builders cupboard-effect and then the builder would not be able to do anything within their build zone until they knock out all there griefers cupboards posted around the perimeter. in order to stop that from happening it would seem Gary would need to code the game so the server would keep track of the order in which cupboards were placedrelative to a specific geographic area which seems like a lot of extra work some additional strain on server side resources and which of course, like the original idea, makes no sense at all in real life terms. what exactly is the briefing issue that Gary is attempting to hotfix with this proposal? Is it to stop people from jumping on ceiling? If so why shouldn't people be able to do that? If you can build a 40 story building why can't I build a 40 story staircase going to the top of your building? if the problem is that people are griefing doors closed why don't we just have a form of foundation that cannot be built on?[/QUOTE] Why would we need to keep track of cupboard placement order? If you try to place within 99 meters of a cupboard without permissions, the cupboard doesn't get placed. If your try to build a normal building 49 meters away, that doesn't place either. Just make a second radius attached to the cupboard.

[QUOTE=elixwhitetail;46425011]Could you try reading the second post in this thread, which is garry's own words about this?[/QUOTE] I guess I don't understand the thought process. "Cat burglers" going in through upper story windows is a real problem in real life. Why does garry assume we shouldn't have that problem in Rust? I guess I just don't understand his logic. Hell, I can scale the wall of the building I'm sitting in right now, without a ladder or stairs, or anything. If I then wanted to smash on the roof, I can do that, in real life, right now. Trying to make upper floors inaccessible to raiders is just silly in my opinion. If that's what garry wants to do, fine, I'll continue to play and test it for him-- but gosh, I just don't understand why he thinks that would be a good thing, or a problem. [editline]6th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=DeadRisen;46425133]Why would we need to keep track of cupboard placement order? If you try to place within 99 meters of a cupboard without permissions, the cupboard doesn't get placed. If your try to build a normal building 49 meters away, that doesn't place either. Just make a second radius attached to the cupboard.[/QUOTE] Good points, that would work.

I dont think this is about people building up and into the windows anyway, its about people building walls in front of doors more than anything else. I like the idea that getting into a base should be hard. It should also be dangerous. And above all when you build a base it should not be turned i to a tomb by so e pimple faced little shit with nothing better to do than be an ass hole online

[QUOTE=halfhand2012;46425365]I dont think this is about people building up and into the windows anyway, its about people building walls in front of doors more than anything else. I like the idea that getting into a base should be hard. It should also be dangerous. And above all when you build a base it should not be turned i to a tomb by so e pimple faced little shit with nothing better to do than be an ass hole online[/QUOTE] That's what i also assumed, only thing is garry gave a very specific response to what the cupboards are for which is kind of confusing because I thought the game was intended this way GARRY "Players don't really own this though. You can still break into someone's house and destroy or clear their tool cupboard so you're the only person allowed to build. [B][U]It's true that I don't like these systems, and I want to avoid them wherever we can. In this case it's to prevent a very specific thing, players building ladders/stairs on your house to gain access[/U][/B]. It's a problem I'm hoping we'll solve some other way further down the line that might make this system redundant. But in the meantime this serves to make the game playable, and lets us add building components like ladders without worrying that they'll be easily exploited."

I cannot understand, WHAT IS WRONG WITH GRIEFING? It's the second option to deal with your enemies - if you cannot raid them, you sabotage their base. And in legacy it was very fun to stalk around, searching for weak spots in enemy base that could be used against them, then find a time when they go out from base, and modify it a bit =) Or, if you fighting big, but dumb group of people who wasn't thinking at all when was building their base, and left a lot of weak spots unproctected - instead of fighting with that kind of group (that you cannot do, because they got numbers) you just forcing them to go away by destroying their house. This also was a good stimulation for people's brains. Most of them, after finding walls arond front door started to use foundations with pillars, after raided trough windows - started putting window bars, destroying enemy ladders and placing pillars in weak spots. Or expanding their base. Some of them (actually, only once i saw people smart enough for that) even used it agains others - they created opportunity for enemies to create ladder on top, and see a lot of boxes behind the wall, so all raiders tried to blow there, and, ofc, it was a setup. But now they listened to casuals who crying about their houses being sabotages, and refusing to think before build, so now casuals have magic tricks to prevent anyone from building around. Great approach to the game desgin, what can i say. Keep doing things like that, and game will become some pve farmer simulator.

[QUOTE=Dreldan;46425427]That's what i also assumed, only thing is garry gave a very specific response to what the cupboards are for which is kind of confusing because I thought the game was intended this way GARRY "Players don't really own this though. You can still break into someone's house and destroy or clear their tool cupboard so you're the only person allowed to build. [B][U]It's true that I don't like these systems, and I want to avoid them wherever we can. In this case it's to prevent a very specific thing, players building ladders/stairs on your house to gain access[/U][/B]. It's a problem I'm hoping we'll solve some other way further down the line that might make this system redundant. But in the meantime this serves to make the game playable, and lets us add building components like ladders without worrying that they'll be easily exploited."[/QUOTE] I stand corrected sir. Well im ok with his reasoning here too, its not realistic to build a set of stairs up too many floors. I would be ok with 2 or maybe 3 floors up to simulate a ladder but beyond that its just silly to see the stairway to heaven used to climb in my tenth floor window.

[QUOTE=Pindrought;46422753]Appreciate the reply, elixwhitetail, but the issue I have is that this supposed fix wont even really fix that problem. People can still build a giant stair-bridge consisting of floorplans/railings/walls to get above your base in minutes and jump down to your ceiling. The only thing that this will really "fix" is people being able to build walls in front of doors which people should know by now to put foundation steps outside their doorways to prevent this. On the other hand the ways to exploit this to grief heavily outnumber what it is preventing.[/QUOTE] you forgot the fall dmg that hopefully soon will be implemented [editline]7th November 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=exe2be;46425066]isn't it easy to just make the same thing with DOORS?? to protect ppl from having a wall next to the door. Cupboards will ruin a big part of the game... What if I like 2 act like a ninja? to get into houses through windows and rob an unlucky house owner, kill him with his own shotgun?) Don't turn the game to "The Sims: postapocalyptic"...[/QUOTE] and you forgot that there will be windowbars so finally window ninja are dead:)