[Suggestion] Firearms malfunctions - Rust

So my idea would be to add in an RNG each time you use a firearm, could do one of four things: 1) Normal fire 2) the bullet was a dud and nothing happens, requiring you to manually clear the chamber (recock/reload the weapon) 3) the casing jams while ejecting (would only happen on the semi and fully automatic weapons), again requiring you to manually clear the chamber (could even use the same animation) 4) the bullet causes critical failure in the weapon, causing the user serious injury and possibly death. The only difference between the case jam and the dud round is that in the case jam situation, the round still fires (who knows one round could save your life). The idea of the critical weapons failure would be so that it adds risk to firing your weapon. The better the quality of the weapon, the less likely event 4 would occur. Of course event 3 wouldn't be a problem with single use weapons or bolt action weapons. This idea would also follow along with the idea of the game because home crafted weapons DO have a much higher rate of critical failure due to poor build quality. Also, as guns age, their build quality normally degrades which can cause critical failure of the weapon and injure the shooter (I've seen this happen). This could also lead to the idea of adding in critical failure risk with the explosive charge because it could add in some X% odds of the crafting going wrong and blowing up in your face (literally). It would give way to scavenging rad towns more than air drops.

It's a very realistic, and good idea. I support it, but not at this time. Possibly in the future.

[QUOTE=buzzie;42670463]It's a very realistic, and good idea. I support it, but not at this time. Possibly in the future.[/QUOTE] Of course, I am not sure how much work would require for this type of thing but I know it's not something that is "needed" now as there are more basic things required for this game right now.

In my opinion, gun jamming shouldn't be implemented. The last thing I need in combat is a jammed firearm (or even worse, a weapon that blows up in my face and damages/kills me). If it does get added, I'd deal with it but I think that the self damage should be left out.

[QUOTE=karpik232;42670557]In my opinion, gun jamming shouldn't be implemented. The last thing I need in combat is a jammed firearm (or even worse, a weapon that blows up in my face and damages/kills me). If it does get added, I'd deal with it but I think that the self damage should be left out.[/QUOTE] How do you think REAL soldiers feel when they have that problem? I wouldn't be happy either if I was under gunfire and my gun jammed but it DOES happen. More modern weapons don't have critical failure nearly as much but if you look at old muzzle loaders critical failures happened a WHOLE lot more compared to today's factory made weapons.

It wouldn't be too hard to code same animations for first 2 even. Use half the animation of the reload animation for it when your character recocks the gun last one just set a damage amount to be set when it happens like. event TakeDamage(int DamageAmount etc have the gun disappear for time being while a explode animation is being build or just have it as disappears

[QUOTE=DrABK;42670572]How do you think REAL soldiers feel when they have that problem? I wouldn't be happy either if I was under gunfire and my gun jammed but it DOES happen. More modern weapons don't have critical failure nearly as much but if you look at old muzzle loaders critical failures happened a WHOLE lot more compared to today's factory made weapons.[/QUOTE] Rust is a video game, not real life. While it's good to have some realism in it, too much realism can make the gameplay annoying. Also, weapon jamming is random and it would take away the skill factor if people relied mostly on luck to decide which side gets an advantage.

If they do add these, I think it should be very clear which event has occurred. Otherwise, I might go to fire my gun and wonder why it isn't doing anything (and perhaps even blame it on lag), before suddenly realizing that the bullet was a dud. Better to have the game perhaps inform me with some kind of prompt or sound effect to let me know. If this is implemented, there should be a mechanic for maintaining guns. You have to expend resources in order to keep your gun in working order, otherwise the chances of misfiring increase over time.

[QUOTE=karpik232;42670716]Rust is a video game, not real life. While it's good to have some realism in it, too much realism can make the gameplay annoying. Also, weapon jamming is random and it would take away the skill factor if people relied mostly on luck to decide which side gets an advantage.[/QUOTE] This isn't suppose to be a first person shooter, it's suppose to be a first person survival builder. The idea is to make it so that the people that wanna run around like gun slingers, have MUCH higher odds of dying in battle (and losing their stuff) than the people who just wanna build a town and scavenge for stuff. People are saying that it shouldn't be nearly as easy to get ammo. Well even if they make it more rare, it still means that the people that run around raiding will most likely accumulate the most ammo and nothing will likely change. Adding in stuff like jamming and critical weapons failures which kill you, would be a way to balance the game between the violent aggressive raiders and the casual community builders.

[QUOTE=karpik232;42670716]Rust is a video game, not real life. While it's good to have some realism in it, too much realism can make the gameplay annoying. Also, weapon jamming is random and it would take away the skill factor if people relied mostly on luck to decide which side gets an advantage.[/QUOTE] To be fair it is supposed to be a survival game, It's supposed to be based on real life like some sort of bear grylls sh&t or exaggerated life meaning harder to survive than it would really be, an example being if there was an apocalypse right now I wouldn't be naked, if you understand what I mean by that. I support the idea of a jam, there should be a difference between being "skilled" which could be translated to having more gear to kill people or whatever but if the other guy takes more reliable gear that is a skill in itself. Just depends how you think about it. -sidenote, perhaps an example of having more reliable gear is like in metro 2033 or last light, a bolt action rifle would have more accuracy and a bit easier to aim but smaller clip and obviously it's bolt action reloading, a raider would most likely take some sort of smg so they can jump about and spray people down or an assualt rifle if it's a group of dudes or dudettes wandering looking for fights, this way it would prevent what is being said above about "people with gear raid and accumulate more" defenders having a simple thing like a crappy but semi reliable bolt action short range rifle could be the crappy piece they need to defend themselves and if you are that type of player then the raiders will just accumulate a lot of rifles they won't use so, just a thought and a quick one so feel free to pick at it xD

[QUOTE=KillaMaaki;42670753]If they do add these, I think it should be very clear which event has occurred. Otherwise, I might go to fire my gun and wonder why it isn't doing anything (and perhaps even blame it on lag), before suddenly realizing that the bullet was a dud. Better to have the game perhaps inform me with some kind of prompt or sound effect to let me know. If this is implemented, there should be a mechanic for maintaining guns. You have to expend resources in order to keep your gun in working order, otherwise the chances of misfiring increase over time.[/QUOTE] If they added in shell ejection animations, it would be MUCH easier to tell when your gun hasn't ejected a shell. For the jammed problem, it could show a casing half out of the gun (which is actually what ejection failures actually are). The idea of maintaining your weapons I really like. It would add a lot more immersion to the game. It's also something a LOT of the F2P sim shooters have added in. Oh and of course if the weapon has "critical failure" it would be beyond repair and just disappear. Forgot to add that in.

[QUOTE=DrABK;42670790]If they added in shell ejection animations, it would be MUCH easier to tell when your gun hasn't ejected a shell. For the jammed problem, it could show a casing half out of the gun (which is actually what ejection failures actually are). The idea of maintaining your weapons I really like. It would add a lot more immersion to the game. It's also something a LOT of the F2P sim shooters have added in.[/QUOTE] Soundwise I'd perhaps like some kind of audible, recognizable click for when the gun jams. Not too unrealistic, but an easy way for me to recognize that the gun misfired and immediately reload.

[QUOTE=KillaMaaki;42670821]Soundwise I'd perhaps like some kind of audible, recognizable click for when the gun jams. Not too unrealistic, but an easy way for me to recognize that the gun misfired and immediately reload.[/QUOTE] I guess that could work. I have wanted a "clicking" noise for when your gun is empty and needs reloading (trigger pull). Could have two clicking noises. A deep one for when there is a round in the chamber and a high "plink" sound for when the gun is empty and it's a dry trigger pull.

[QUOTE=DrABK;42670448]So my idea would be to add in an RNG each time you use a firearm, could do one of four things: 1) Normal fire 2) the bullet was a dud and nothing happens, requiring you to manually clear the chamber (recock/reload the weapon) 3) the casing jams while ejecting (would only happen on the semi and fully automatic weapons), again requiring you to manually clear the chamber (could even use the same animation) 4) the bullet causes critical failure in the weapon, causing the user serious injury and possibly death. The only difference between the case jam and the dud round is that in the case jam situation, the round still fires (who knows one round could save your life). The idea of the critical weapons failure would be so that it adds risk to firing your weapon. The better the quality of the weapon, the less likely event 4 would occur. Of course event 3 wouldn't be a problem with single use weapons or bolt action weapons. This idea would also follow along with the idea of the game because home crafted weapons DO have a much higher rate of critical failure due to poor build quality. Also, as guns age, their build quality normally degrades which can cause critical failure of the weapon and injure the shooter (I've seen this happen). This could also lead to the idea of adding in critical failure risk with the explosive charge because it could add in some X% odds of the crafting going wrong and blowing up in your face (literally). It would give way to scavenging rad towns more than air drops.[/QUOTE] I really like this idea, but I think that it should only apply to crafted ammo, or have a MUCH lower chance of happening on dropped ammo. My reasoning behind this is ammo crafted by non-professional survivors against ammo that is likely military-grade dropped from an airplane. As for dud ammo, a "click" sort of sound announcing a primer strike but no firing of the projectile would be nice, for jams the round will fire, but not eject properly requiring rapid tapping of the reload key to pull the slide back and eject the shell, and critical failure blowing the gun open causing instant bleeding (due to shrapnel,) but death seems a bit much, though to be fair it would discourage heavy use of weapons as well.

No to critical failures in the M4, MP5, P250, and 9MM. In the homemade weapons, sure. The jamming would be a good addition as well, but the probabilities would have to be set very carefully

[QUOTE=ianTesla;42671062]No to critical failures in the M4, MP5, P250, and 9MM. In the homemade weapons, sure. The jamming would be a good addition as well, but the probabilities would have to be set very carefully[/QUOTE] I gotta disagree, it should apply to all weapons. If you have ever fired a weapon in real life, you would know that this kind of stuff happens sometimes. (I am a huge fan of the Ruger 10/22, .22 LR, been shooting it for years, every now and then a cartridge gets stuck and you have to clear the chamber.)

[QUOTE=jonnymad;42671079]I gotta disagree, it should apply to all weapons. If you have ever fired a weapon in real life, you would know that this kind of stuff happens sometimes. (I am a huge fan of the Ruger 10/22, .22 LR, been shooting it for years, every now and then a cartridge gets stuck and you have to clear the chamber.)[/QUOTE] I think he was referring to critical failures, for instance the gun blowing up in your hands. Regular misfires of course should stay.

[QUOTE=KillaMaaki;42671131]I think he was referring to critical failures, for instance the gun blowing up in your hands. Regular misfires of course should stay.[/QUOTE] Well, in a shotgun if you overload the cartridge, it can blow up the chamber or the barrel, which I would think would be possible when an inexperienced survivor is loading a cartridge. I should say that even the modern weapons have a chance for critical failure.

[QUOTE=ianTesla;42671062]No to critical failures in the M4, MP5, P250, and 9MM. In the homemade weapons, sure. The jamming would be a good addition as well, but the probabilities would have to be set very carefully[/QUOTE] The problem is that critical failures occur, because of the quality of the weapon, NOT because of how it was made. If you have ever fired an OLD gun like a Peace Maker (not a replica), you would know that there IS a chance you'll lose your hand when firing them. It's because the metal itself has degraded overtime which can cause structural failures which go critical when you set off an explosion in the gun (i.e. you fire a bullet). So it really isn't something to do with the ammo (though that can cause critical failures its own ways) but it is more to do with the weapon. To be honest I think finding weapons should be an EXTREMELY rare thing and they have great quality. But the REST should be forced to be crafted. Even great quality weapons will degrade, and the maintenance kits for those guns should require a LOT more materials than the normal ones. [editline]28th October 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=jonnymad;42671159]Well, in a shotgun if you overload the cartridge, it can blow up the chamber or the barrel, which I would think would be possible when an inexperienced survivor is loading a cartridge. I should say that even the modern weapons have a chance for critical failure.[/QUOTE] Brand new weapons can have critical failures due to defects in the metals. The defect count is incredibly low (probably less than 1 defect in every 10,000 guns made) but they do happen. The ENTIRE idea behind this is to balance the no-life kiddies who want to run around grieving and raiding. Right now their risk level is obscenely low. The best way to balance it is to create a statistical penalty for the behavior so that it makes them think "is killing the naked bambi REALLY worth getting my own face blown off when this gun blows up?" Another variant to add to the "critical injury" would be if the gun was being hip fired or if they were aiming down the sights. If they were aiming down the sights, the damage should be instant death (I mean if a gun goes critical and it's inches from your face, you're probably going to get injured in a way that you can't recover from in a post-apocalyptic environment). However, I'm not sure if the above is possible to do or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible, but I'm not absolutely sure of that, we would have to ask Garry.

[QUOTE=DrABK;42671538] Another variant to add to the "critical injury" would be if the gun was being hip fired or if they were aiming down the sights. If they were aiming down the sights, the damage should be instant death (I mean if a gun goes critical and it's inches from your face, you're probably going to get injured in a way that you can't recover from in a post-apocalyptic environment). However, I'm not sure if the above is possible to do or not. I wouldn't be surprised if it was possible, but I'm not absolutely sure of that, we would have to ask Garry.[/QUOTE] No reason why it wouldn't. It's just a simple switch - if/when a critical failure occurs, is the user aiming down sights or not? Yes - Kill No - Injure As far as penalty count, homemade weapons should have a chance of critical failure of the deadly kind if not maintained (cleaned & repaired frequently), as well as higher chances for general misfire, while modern weapons should have no chance of critical failure, and lower chance of general misfire (and take a metric boatload of materials to make, in addition to requiring the proper equipment to even build one - some kind of weapon smithy, perhaps). For homemade weapons, it would immediately make sense to the player that homemade weapons have a chance of failure. They're crappy guns made out of whatever could be scavenged. For modern weapons, arguably the highest level of weapon in the game, it wouldn't make as much sense to include chance of critical failure (but general misfires should still be included). In many cases it would be statistical punishment for no reason - having death occur purely by random choice with no way for the player to improve or even completely eliminate the odds is not good game design (at the end of the day, we should always be more concerned about fun than about realism).

[QUOTE=KillaMaaki;42671593]No reason why it wouldn't. It's just a simple switch - if/when a critical failure occurs, is the user aiming down sights or not? Yes - Kill No - Injure As far as penalty count, homemade weapons should have a chance of critical failure of the deadly kind if not maintained (cleaned & repaired frequently), as well as higher chances for general misfire, while modern weapons should have no chance of critical failure, and lower chance of general misfire (and take a metric boatload of materials to make, in addition to requiring the proper equipment to even build one - some kind of weapon smithy, perhaps). For homemade weapons, it would immediately make sense to the player that homemade weapons have a chance of failure. They're crappy guns made out of whatever could be scavenged. For modern weapons, arguably the highest level of weapon in the game, it wouldn't make as much sense to include chance of critical failure (but general misfires should still be included). In many cases it would be statistical punishment for no reason - having death occur purely by random choice with no way for the player to improve or even completely eliminate the odds is not good game design (at the end of the day, we should always be more concerned about fun than about realism).[/QUOTE] I could agree, but the modern weapons would still have to be maintained or the odds of a critical failure WOULD increase. You could set it so that if the odds of a critical failure were below a certain level (say 0.01% or 1:10,000, for example) that no failure could occur. It would mean that as long as you maintain the weapon, you wouldn't have to worry about the gun blowing up in your face. However, if you let it go to crap (because say you decide to go on a raiding spree and you blow through 2,000 rounds of ammo), there becomes a REAL possibility of the thing going critical and blowing up in your face. This is important because one thing to worry about when firing weapons is how hot the barrel gets and how many hot/cold cycles it goes through before the metal has become too brittle and needs say a barrel replaced (thank you Materials Science Engineering 201). It would create a balance of even the MOST powerful guns in the game. Home crafted ammo might not blow up in your face, but if bullets don't end up becoming EXTREMELY valuable, then you would need to figure out a way to balance a shooting spree with weapons failure risk.

To add to the idea..to avoid any malfunction a daily cleaning that takes 2-5 minutes should be required to lessen the risk and uses up cloth. Can't fire or move while performing maintenance...and if you get jumped on your allowed to hit a key to stop the maintenance but you lose your weapon. I mean hey people want this to be realistic...can't be more realistic than that. [QUOTE=karpik232;42670557]In my opinion, gun jamming shouldn't be implemented. The last thing I need in combat is a jammed firearm (or even worse, a weapon that blows up in my face and damages/kills me). If it does get added, I'd deal with it but I think that the self damage should be left out.[/QUOTE] Poor maintenance or lack of maintenance should allow to weapon malfunctions...across the board. [QUOTE=DrABK;42670572]How do you think REAL soldiers feel when they have that problem? I wouldn't be happy either if I was under gunfire and my gun jammed but it DOES happen. More modern weapons don't have critical failure nearly as much but if you look at old muzzle loaders critical failures happened a WHOLE lot more compared to today's factory made weapons.[/QUOTE] Happens more than you think.

You also don't want it to be unfair, trust me i've argued a lot for features that people labeled as "too realistic" but someone dying because they simply fired the weapon would just not work. Everything else i agree with. Maybe rather dealing critical damage to the player the weapon is critically damaged and needs to be repaired?

[QUOTE=jonnymad;42671079]I gotta disagree, it should apply to all weapons. If you have ever fired a weapon in real life, you would know that this kind of stuff happens sometimes. (I am a huge fan of the Ruger 10/22, .22 LR, been shooting it for years, every now and then a cartridge gets stuck and you have to clear the chamber.)[/QUOTE] You read his post wrong: he said... - no to critical failures in the modern weapons - yes to critical failure in the homemade weapons - jamming should be ok (and I'm pretty sure he meant across all weapons). The situation you described is a jam, not a critical failure. Critical failure is anything that leads to permanent damage of the gun - the most common is a barrel imploding under pressure of the bullet because it hasn't been cleaned out properly. For most other critical failures, it occurs because the metal has performed poorly over several years with no maintenance or cleaning. Jamming is more a design issue with how the bullet is loaded, though in the past they were mostly because the bullets would get bent by even a few degrees somehow (manufacturer sucked, transportation sucked, soldier handling the ammo sucked, etc) but nowadays the bullet manufacturers have to keep their bullets within standards or face consequences.

I agree with what you are doing with the whole jamming thing, but I don't like #4. I know it is realistic and all but, I just don't like the fact that it could possibly cause death. Either way good idea :zoid: :dance:

I finally realized what this all reminds me of: [video=youtube;VpWxIEeIKFE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpWxIEeIKFE[/video] Far Cry 2 had a weapon malfunction system that, after a time, would result in the weapon breaking apart. Now if you will excuse me, I am gonna go play some Far Cry 2 :dance:

I kind of like the idea of when the weapon jams, some kind of animation where the guy fiddles with the gun, maybe smacks it a few times in frustration, and then finally clears the jam. Maybe if you don't maintain modern weapons, various parts get stuck like in the video.

[QUOTE=nakieon;42672613]You read his post wrong: he said... - no to critical failures in the modern weapons - yes to critical failure in the homemade weapons - jamming should be ok (and I'm pretty sure he meant across all weapons). The situation you described is a jam, not a critical failure. Critical failure is anything that leads to permanent damage of the gun - the most common is a barrel imploding under pressure of the bullet because it hasn't been cleaned out properly. For most other critical failures, it occurs because the metal has performed poorly over several years with no maintenance or cleaning. Jamming is more a design issue with how the bullet is loaded, though in the past they were mostly because the bullets would get bent by even a few degrees somehow (manufacturer sucked, transportation sucked, soldier handling the ammo sucked, etc) but nowadays the bullet manufacturers have to keep their bullets within standards or face consequences.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the explanation of jamming. Well in this game 90% of your ammo will be hand crafted which means the odds of jamming SHOULD increase significantly. Personally I think high quality ammo should be even more rare than high quality guns. That way if people want low risk weapons (and ammo), they won't have a lot of it. It would allow defenders to have a statistical upper hand since right now attackers have the upper hand because weapons and ammo ALWAYS works so it's just an issue of how much ammo can they expend (winning by numbers).

[QUOTE=KillaMaaki;42675715]I kind of like the idea of when the weapon jams, some kind of animation where the guy fiddles with the gun, maybe smacks it a few times in frustration, and then finally clears the jam. Maybe if you don't maintain modern weapons, various parts get stuck like in the video.[/QUOTE] Yeah, that's basically what I was thinking. There could be a game mechanic added where you clean your gun (semi-interactive, such as moving the mouse up and down to clean out the barrel with your tool, or clicking pieces to take it apart and cleaning each part.) Either way, it has to be something semi-time-consuming so that it discourages heavy usage of a weapon.

There should be a poll on this, someone should start it