Rust's building tiers: The quick (not really) guide on how to improve the current system (Originally - Rust

[B][I]Quick note, I posted this on the Rust subreddit originally, but I kind of want it to get a little more exposure due to the fact I feel confident that it's at LEAST a semi-decent post, so I signed up here to post it as well. Shame me for making this my first post, I won't blame you for it. I've edited it quite a bit, though. Link to original:[/I][/B] [url]https://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/3nyj7u/suggestion_rusts_building_tiers_the_quick_not/[/url] [B]---------[/B] [I]Just to clarify, if I say something is a 'fix', please excuse my poor wording and just assume I meant 'improve'. The current system is NOT broken, and I did not intend to imply such.[/I] I tried to keep this short but failed miserably. Please excuse the long read. Also, I've seen this brought up a few times over the past month or so, but mentions of it were typically short or poorly worded. I've done my best to provide a proper statement on the current system while offering manageable fixes to it. Anyway I'm mostly fine with the upgrade system as it is now, but I feel like it could be improved so that more of it is being used, and so it makes a little more sense in terms of gameplay alongside the theme of the game. I tried my best to keep suggestions reasonable, as I didn't want to make demands or suggest something that would require an unreasonable amount of work to accomplish. [B]---------[/B] [U][B]Problem 1: Skipping tiers due to cost[/B][/U] Anyone with at least one map cycle of experience knows that upgrading straight from twig to stone and stone to armored is by far the most effective method of upgrading. More often than not, when able to, we'll just upgrade from twig to armored. This is because the cost of each tier doesn't seem to stack, almost as if you're entirely rebuilding the wall with a new material. It doesn't make much sense, mainly because buildings in this game seem like they are presented to us as if they've been added on to. Look at the scrap metal door- it's just the wood door with random sheets of metal added on. Armored is apparently a combination of wood, stone and HQM, most likely the HQM is just plating and the stone and wood make up the layering of it. This approach to upgrading would help with the feel and potentially immersion (Maybe?) of the game, but more important, the gameplay. I have two suggestions below, the first one being a bit more complicated than the second. We would have a much smoother progression if the walls were able to keep track of what tier they have already been upgraded to. Say a player upgrades to wood, then the cost of wood in the armored tier could be reduced or removed entirely. By doing this, players wouldn't feel as pressured to upgrade straight to stone because they wouldn't feel as though they are being forced to waste extra wood just to get a base some quick starting defense. Streamlining the upgrade line would encourage players to actually use the tiers as they're provided, from twig slowly working their way up to armored, not just jumping from twig to stone or armored right away. This is an issue we see a lot in Rust, not a lot of early or mid-game focus, and this would be one rather easy step towards adding more into those specifically. Another, more simple way to approach this, instead of making walls keep track of their previous upgrades, it could just be made where you have to upgrade by one tier each time. Twig > Wood > Stone, etc, not Twig > Armored. Obviously the cost of each upgrade would have to be re-balanced to keep this in mind, mostly only with Armored, but it would make it so people don't skip entire tiers just because they don't like tier 2 and 4. It would also help some issues I'll address further below. [B]---------[/B] [B][U]Problem 2: The function[/U][/B] Even if the costs and upgrading methods were to be tweaked, people would still generally skip tier 2 and 4. Wood offers very little protection aside from not being destroyed with 3 bullets, and everyone complains about how awful sheet metal is because it has lower health than stone and, can be taken out with one C4. Each tier should have some sort of benefit, some reason to want to use it. Maybe wood has slower decay, maybe we could reduce the cost to upgrade to wood, something along those lines. With wood, it is a little tough to figure out a good way to fix it, because it's a lower tier that isn't really meant to be that protective to anyone other than freshspawns. I'd still recommend reducing the cost to upgrade to wood, even if it was just a small amount, mostly because you can spend the same amount of time gathering stone as you would with wood, but get better protection from the stone you gathered, even if you ended up gathering less stone than the wood. Wood is effectively useless because of this, there isn't really anything keeping players from gathering enough stone to upgrade to it aside from the fact that it takes 300 stones to upgrade and 200 wood to upgrade. Alternatively you could up the cost of stone, but I don't see many people being a fan of this. In the end, that specific choice is up to the devs. In addition, if you were to switch to the method I suggestion above, where you force players to upgrade to each individual tier, then they wouldn't just magically create a stone wall, and rather have to upgrade their flimsy twig wall to a sturdy wood wall, then add stone protection to said wall. This would help support the idea that the building objects in the game are just being added on to. The downside to this is that you are forcing players to gather even more wood to upgrade their base, but the reality of this situation is that if you were to remove wood from the armored tier cost and force players to upgrade one tier at a time, they'd be spending the same amount as they would when upgrading straight from twig to armored, if not less wood, depending on how they upgrade with the current system (If they upgrade straight to armored instead of wood then armored, they save 200 wood doing so). This brings us to tier 4, sheet metal. Everybody hates sheet metal right now, it has lower HP than tier 3, it costs 150 metal frags, which doesn't seem like too much but given it's low functionality the cost is far more than it should currently be. The only benefit this wall offers is a strong resistance to bullets and melee. However it is incredibly weak to explosives, where explosive 5.56 and C4 tear it down far faster than they tear down stone walls. All things considered you are better off keeping your walls stone because of this, making the raw material that SHOULD be a better resource than stone less effective as a building material. How can we fix this? Improve functionality of that specific tier. The thing you always hear about is how it should have more HP, and that's true, the logical number would be 750HP due to the fact it's the tier between stone and armored, which respectively have 500HP and 1000HP, but since this CAN be argued to be too overpowered, 500HP would still be fair to apply to sheet metal. This would buff up it's resistance to C4 to be on par with stone, while giving players extra resistance to raids using weaker explosives or pickaxes. It would be the optimal middle ground between stone, which is a tier meant to stop people from easily chopping or shooting down your walls (And is a relatively cheap defense considering it's 300 stone to force people to use 2 C4 to break), and armored, which is meant to be the tier that can stop almost everything but highly explosive materials. In addition, this would help give value and desire back to metal frags, ever since HQM kicked them out of the spotlight. (People who don't like raiding should like this idea because it would reduce the amount of metal frags being put into C4 production by spreading out what it's being used on) If the balance of this is still up for question, then further on down the road the walls of tier 4 could be changed to match how External Stone Walls look, but not just for looks. Have the strong side of the wall be covered in metal with all the benefits a metal wall has agai

Its a pity such a detailed suggestion receives no attention at all, but I think I know why. I am sorry for telling you this but: The building and upgrading system is fine. I can think of lots of things that appear more important to me now. Buildng a wall step by step would indeed look nicely but that's a feature for the distant past. There sandbox games where there are several different textures for walls in construction but I doubt that rust will focus on realistic looking building process. Sheet metal is relatively cheap and it has its pros. Once you get inside a base it is easy to find a stone wall you can destroy with tools from the inside. The onlything you invest is time. But if you build sheet metal, even the inside of sheet metal will take twice as long as the inside of stone with tools. [QUOTE] Remove the ability to instantly place and upgrade walls in dangerous situations[/QUOTE] Ok. This sounds reasonable [QUOTE]Give players more reason to use every wall tier[/QUOTE] Why? This doesn't make sense to me.

[QUOTE=FowsT;48884772] Why? This doesn't make sense to me.[/QUOTE] How doesn't it make sense? What is the point of having a building tier that no one uses? Time and effort just wasted by the devs.

[QUOTE=FowsT;48884772] Why? This doesn't make sense to me.[/QUOTE] What he means is that there should be a reason for every material. Wood: Fairly strong, much easier to hack down with hatchet, flammable Stone: Stronger, much easier to hack down with pick ax, non flammable Sheet Metal: A combination of the two, but weak to explosives. Armored: The stronger version of Sheet Metal. Actually now that I think about it, most of this is already implemented... But I get where he's going at.

I agree with these suggestions. The tier system doesn't make much sense to me. I get it was a first draft kinda thing but it would be nice to give players a reason to use every tier as they progress and not just skip to the "good" ones. Especially sheet metal. Right now it is totally useless. Anyone wanting to seriously raid a good sized base is going to use c4 and sheet metal just means they need to use less. It makes no sense especially if you upgraded from stone to sheet metal.

Stone and metal are rock paper scissors. It's assumed once there are more melee or at least non-explosive (siege item) materials for raiding, melee raiding will become more of a thing and sheet metal will have a use. It's not intended to be a tier 1 through 4 steady progression, because that represents an absence of strategy. Armored components are the only clear winner, and HQM is rare enough that builders have to be selective in how to use it for walls/components. Right now, sheet metal is useful in early to mid game when C4 is scarce, as deception, and as bait for C4 attrition.

Right now the easiest way to raid is to blow in through the bottom, get to the main cupboard and upgrade to sheet before using a single C4 on remaining walls. Sheet needs a buff.

You say this like its an easy thing to find a cupboard. But that's not the case if you hide it well. Also, the cupboard on the first floor shouldn't be the cupboard with the highest priority of course. When there's a cupboard on the second floor I think it will still block building on the first floor. And why would you only use one cupboard per floor? They will be easily detectable limited to about 4-9 foundations where it could be. [editline]13th October 2015[/editline] Well I've seen plenty of wood houses in my playing time, it could get a little cheaper but I still don't think that sheet metal necessarily needs a buff. Maybe they could approximately double both, hit points and cost but then every base would be in sheet metal instead of stone. And I like the looks of stone bases, and then we would be at the same point when nobody is using stone as building material because metal is cheaper and more effective.

[QUOTE=joejoejoey04;48891746]Right now the easiest way to raid is to blow in through the bottom, get to the main cupboard and upgrade to sheet before using a single C4 on remaining walls. Sheet needs a buff.[/QUOTE] I don't think we need to plan material balance based on what happens [B]after[/B] someone's poorly-designed base has spread its legs and given up the primary cupboard.

[QUOTE=CrealStar;48861238] [B]*[/B] Consider revising cost of each tier [B]*[/B] Give players more reason to use every wall tier [/QUOTE] I agree with this a little, but don't ever remove skipping tiers that's dumb. Atm it is easier to just farm tonnes of stone and about 3k wood to go straight to a stone base, fuck wood. I think the prices of lower tiers should be lowered by say -40%wood -20%stone, idk, and then add an object check, if you upgrade from twig to stone you still pay the wood wall upgrade cost. This doesn't slow the build mechanic but it removes the effect that skipping a tier is cost effective. That's my only complaint about current system. Skipping is cost efficient and I don't think it should be, but I acknowledge paying 300wood and 300stone per wall is stupid. so what if it was 180wood 240stone per stone wall or something like that? Just spouting idea's.

[QUOTE=Murdo;48892517]I don't think we need to plan material balance based on what happens [B]after[/B] someone's poorly-designed base has spread its legs and given up the primary cupboard.[/QUOTE] The point is that the UPGRADE is weaker than from what you upgraded from. Where is the balance in that?

[QUOTE=joejoejoey04;48896695]The point is that the UPGRADE is weaker than from what you upgraded from. Where is the balance in that?[/QUOTE] It's weaker to explosives, stronger against melee. That provides you a tactical option, instead of saying "Tier 1 -> 2 -> 3 -> 4". You understand the concept of rock/paper/scissors, right? If Rust had more such options, if building components had more features or combinations or add-ons that increased complexity, it would only benefit the tactical options available. In other words, a more interesting game that isn't based on simple grinding progression. You build your walls with the specific placement and array of materials that you feel best defends against the threats present on your server. That's something theoretically you control. Similarly, if someone "roots" your base and gets to your primary cupboard, they now have that control. Until cupboards go away, a good rule of thumb is: don't let the enemy reach them.

Sheet is hardly stronger against melee. When doing raids with some larger groups we used to upgrade walls to sheet then rotate them to face the weak side. Its about 10 pickaxes for the weak side vs 35 for a stone wall on the right way.

[QUOTE=B_Dragon;48897549]Sheet is hardly stronger against melee. When doing raids with some larger groups we used to upgrade walls to sheet then rotate them to face the weak side. Its about 10 pickaxes for the weak side vs 35 for a stone wall on the right way.[/QUOTE] I think you will find it's 11 pickaxes nooooob But yah you are right. This rock - paper - scissors crap that people keep spouting doesn't come in to play when NOBODY pickaxes a strong facing wall.

[QUOTE=B_Dragon;48897549]Sheet is hardly stronger against melee. When doing raids with some larger groups we used to upgrade walls to sheet then rotate them to face the weak side. Its about 10 pickaxes for the weak side vs 35 for a stone wall on the right way.[/QUOTE] So the real problem is that you get to rotate a wall after upgrading it. It's something base-owners seem to want, so it's available for raiders to exploit. And we're back to the original point: don't let people access your cupboard. The fact that the weak side of sheet is weaker than the strong side of stone is a good thing.

I prefer to think of it as 2 build trees in stead of 1; Trig > Wood > Stone Twig > Sheet Metal > Armored

If you think about it logically in a survival situation where you'd fortify your base you wouldn't upgrade from stone to metal by knocking down the stone wall and building it from metal you'd reinforce it with sheet metal stuck into the stone giving the benefit of both. I'd like to see sheet metal walls look like stone walls with a smooth stone texture on the weak side and sheet metal on the strong side. Surely if metal is strong against tools and stone is strong against c4 then upgrading should give you the benefit of both materials not swapping one for the other. That's not upgrading that's trading.

I didn't want to interfere in the discussion, but I guess it's relevant. I'm a plugin dev and I have my own server on which I have a huge plugin with a bunch of exclusive features and I'm currently working on a building tier revamp for this plugin. Here is a link to the spreadsheet I'm working with as a roadmap: [url]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hPzBAfRDs4j4NIhFGFc6JZ_EbqcFpMqWrPOEaoLMiKc/edit#gid=0[/url] The plugin in question is called LIME (Legacy Inspired Mod for Experimental) and I'm trying to rework the tiers so they feel more like Legacy which I think had a very good balance. I will of course adjust sulfur drop rates on the server to account for the balance change, since everything costs more to blow up, it's going to be a little easier to get C4. As you can see, I tailored sheet and armored straight to the wood/metal tiers of Legacy. Stone is only slightly less durable than sheet, but since stone is so easy to get and abundant, I feel this is about right. Wood gets a much needed boost as well since right now it's borderline useless. Just food for thought. There is a lot more going into this than this spread sheet btw, I plan on making foundations and pillars much stronger, I plan on removing stone and wood req. to the upgrade to armored, tweak the costs, etc.