Did they just remove tool raiding from rust and made c4 raiding 2x as hard? - Rust

So tools now do a tenth damage to walls and explained half the damage? 70 pick axes for a stone wall is not an option. Sheet metal is now worse than stone. Or is this a huge misunderstanding? Walls take less damage from exterior side - @garrynewman (/main) "Melee/bullet attacks to the exteriors are a tenth as effective Explosion damage to exterior is half as effective" - Garry Sources: [url]http://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/3877x5/what_exactly_is_this_supposed_to_mean_do_walls/[/url] [url]https://twitter.com/RustUpdates/status/605661462921641984[/url]

Yes, except tool raiding is not removed... just 10 times as hard.

Nice. I like that. Look like Garry got the jist of my suggestion post :)

[QUOTE=utilitron;47860472]Yes, except tool raiding is not removed... just 10 times as hard.[/QUOTE] 70 pick axes for a stone wall, 3500 metal... Sounds like removed to me.

[QUOTE=Sheytan;47860622]70 pick axes for a stone wall, 3500 metal... Sounds like removed to me.[/QUOTE] Horribly and unproportionately nerfed, but not removed.

R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :]

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47860961]R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :][/QUOTE] LOL! Use some C4 man, that's what they're in the game for. Good change, this will definitely help solo players get some foundations down.

[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47860994]LOL! Use some C4 man, that's what they're in the game for. Good change, this will definitely help solo players get some foundations down.[/QUOTE] 4x C4 for single stone wall? Thats 11k sulphur, not worth it mate. :]

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47860961]R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :][/QUOTE] What if doors remained the same they were? What if C4 was easier to make and had little to no blast radius? Don't judge ONE change, you have to look at the big picture. I'm actually working on a config for my server which will bring C4/nades/rockets/building/raiding very close to the balance we had in legacy. One of the first thing I have wrote down in terms of objectives is exactly that: make walls stronger than doors, make ceilings and foundations stronger than walls, make pillars almost immune to damage, etc. The whole idea is to make C4 a chirurgical tool, as opposed to the small nuke it is now. I hope I'm right and the devs went that way, it will make Rust much much much better than it is now. Raiding with tools should be a last ditch option, not the most efficient way to raid bases. Back in legacy, wood and metal were immune to tools (except doors, which took a A LOT of hits, somewhere close to 1/2 what stone takes right now). Then you had grenades which were more expensive than C4 and worked on wood but not on metal (it did work on metal doors!). This allowed gettho raiders that didn't have C4 to actually still raid small time... Right now, there is ZERO reason to make C4 other than break armored (and even then, it's faster to break an armored wall with tools than to make the C4 to blow it). This is a step in the right direction, for sure. It won't come "alone", there will be other things to balance everything out.

Well, this basically removes the strategy that used to be required to effectively raid a base. It's all brute force now. I'm sure things will get balanced out eventually, but for the next while, the balance of power has most definitely been shifted towards the builders rather than raiders. Considering 'easy mode' that the ladders provided, this is not necessarily a terrible thing. But balancing will be needed in some form. Hopefully it's in the form of build time for explosives and perhaps distribution and quantity of sufur nodes. On the bright side, this will make raiders a little more selective of their targets. There's probably no point wasting 70 pick axes or 4 C4 worth of resources to break into some noob's stone 2 x 2 since he won't have anything worthwhile taking to cover the costs of getting into his base in the first place. It will definitely help new players on a server to get established with more relative safety.

Good. The idea of breaking into someone's house by literally chopping down a wall was pretty silly. Maybe this is a step towards a future of picking locks and prying window bars.

This is one of those ideas where as soon as I hear it I think "Why didn't I think of that?"

A great change. Finally you can build a 2x3 or 3x3 building from stone and not have some naked wood spear / pick axe it down in less than 30min. This finally allows new players to have a small house where they can actually cook metal / sulfur without the light attracting every naked in the area to do a quick stick raid.

Seems to me that they are trying to create a gap for mid sized raid tools, aka battering ram and make tools more specialized.

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47860961]R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :][/QUOTE] Yeah, totally. This change hasn't been introduced yet. The game can never be balanced once it's implemented. Devs need to stop changing things and leave the game as is. Seriously, this will be interesting. There's been no real shake up to damage and building health since wood was near indestructible a few months ago, and it might allow a bit more balancing for explosives and gunpowder.

[QUOTE=Crunchmeister;47861168]There's probably no point wasting 70 pick axes or 4 C4 worth of resources to break into some noob's stone 2 x 2 since he won't have anything worthwhile taking to cover the costs of getting into his base in the first place. It will definitely help new players on a server to get established with more relative safety.[/QUOTE] Seems like this was part of the point. I think C4 will stay as a difficult to craft resource and more means of raiding will come on a more simplistic level, siege weapons, battering rams, maybe even greek fire.

[QUOTE=Ferro;47861280]Yeah, totally. This change hasn't been introduced yet. The game can never be balanced once it's implemented. Devs need to stop changing things and leave the game as is.[/QUOTE] Can't decide if this message is sarcasm or not. The game in it's current state is so unbalanced it's sad. Most servers emptied themselves when ladders were introduced. I'm not against ladders, but tool raiding is just ridiculously easy right now and this is a step in the right direction.

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47860961]R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :][/QUOTE] Was raiding ever worth it? For loot not really, the c4 used to raid someone is most of the time more expensive than the loot you get. For me c4 seems to be a great tool for war between neighbors and clans.

[QUOTE='Deicide[RS];47861041']What if doors remained the same they were?[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.xup.in/dl,67190215/wp_ss_20150602_0004.png/][img]http://www0.xup.in/tn/2015_06/67190215.png[/img][/url] We know they are harder to break than before but not if it's as hard as raiding walls since Garry's reddit post only referred to walls..

"Garry updated how damage on building parts works, making the outer sides much stronger than the inner." Read everything not just "10 more pickaxes".

[QUOTE=Crunchmeister;47861168]Well, this basically removes the strategy that used to be required to effectively raid a base. It's all brute force now. I'm sure things will get balanced out eventually, but for the next while, the balance of power has most definitely been shifted towards the builders rather than raiders. Considering 'easy mode' that the ladders provided, this is not necessarily a terrible thing. But balancing will be needed in some form. Hopefully it's in the form of build time for explosives and perhaps distribution and quantity of sufur nodes. On the bright side, this will make raiders a little more selective of their targets. There's probably no point wasting 70 pick axes or 4 C4 worth of resources to break into some noob's stone 2 x 2 since he won't have anything worthwhile taking to cover the costs of getting into his base in the first place. It will definitely help new players on a server to get established with more relative safety.[/QUOTE] I think you are missing the point of this change. I'm pretty sure C4 will be easier/cheaper/faster to make and have less blast radius to balance this change.. Which brings us closer to the type of raiding we had in legacy which was about perfect in my opinion. I'm thinking Garry listened to my suggestions... and we'll be getting doors that are weaker than walls and less splash. This way raiders need to use their head instead of just demolishing the whole block in a clumsy/brute force fashion. I see this as a move AWAY from the brute force tactic. Lets face it, raiding with tools was pretty OP... Take any 5 nude guys give 'em a rock and 10 min later they have enough spears or stone picks to raid quite efficiently... all that while I'm parked in my base making "high tier" raiding tools at not even 1/2 wall per hour, afraid to go out and pvp/farm cause I don't want to loose my stuff. Tool raiding, wood farming and C4 crafting time are killing this game.

[QUOTE=Sheytan;47860622]70 pick axes for a stone wall, 3500 metal... Sounds like removed to me.[/QUOTE] Because they have never made a change they needed to tweak after implementation... [QUOTE=Yanglegend;47860961]R.I.P raiding and balance. Raiding is just not worth it now - in 99% cases now u will lose more then u can get. :][/QUOTE] I don't think raiding was ever supposed to be as lucrative as doing it on your own. Raiding is supposed to be reserved as a survival technique... It is winter... your food is gone... you are starving... your neighbor looks delicious... [editline]2nd June 2015[/editline] [QUOTE='Deicide[RS];47861395']I'm thinking Garry listened to my suggestions... and we'll be getting doors that are weaker than walls and less splash. This way raiders need to use their head instead of just demolishing the whole block in a clumsy/brute force fashion. I see this as a move AWAY from the brute force tactic.[/QUOTE] If this update only applies to walls then this should be true already.

[QUOTE='Deicide[RS];47861395']I'm pretty sure C4 will be easier/cheaper/faster to make and have less blast radius to balance this change.. Which brings us closer to the type of raiding we had in legacy which was about perfect in my opinion.[/QUOTE] I havn't seen anything posted about this, if c4 isnt changed its going to be way to hard to break into anything with 1-2 people just thinking about it its going to take 9 sulfur nodes for 1 c4 and 6 c4 for the exterior wall that's 54 sulfur nodes for 1 exterior wall lol. 1 metal nodes gets you 2 armored walls. so i fukin hope its cheaper

If the C4 crafting time is reduced (not even the materials, just the time it takes to make gunpowder) then this will be fine. Always hated tool raiding, wasn't difficult but it was tedious and it made the wood building tier useless. So less of that is always good. Might need to lower the health on stone though (I say this as someone whose favorite building material is stone) because if it's nearly toolproof and takes 4 C4 to go through the strong side then it will be massively superior to metal which would actually be toolproof not just nearly but only takes half the amount of C4. Cheaper C4 (in material cost) but with reduced splash damage would also be good, rewards raiders for thinking about placement instead of them just being able to nuke everything in a 3x3 area (which is cripplingly expensive for someone raided to rebuild).

[QUOTE=trustinrocks;47861328]Was raiding ever worth it? For loot not really, the c4 used to raid someone is most of the time more expensive than the loot you get. For me c4 seems to be a great tool for war between neighbors and clans.[/QUOTE] Are you new in Rust? Ofc raiding was worth it at many stages of development (LEGACY era for example). Always the main reason of raiding was to get more stuff, not just to lose your time and waste gunpowder. Ofc not always u was succesfull with raiding, but that was ok. With this change raids are just not worth it in 99% of cases. Just do the math and check resoruces to build stone walls vs resorcues and time to craft c4 (4 per wall), clearly unbalanced - solo players may forget about any raiding. :] Few last patches was very promissing and was bringing legacy spirit back, but here we are again in carebears heaven.

[QUOTE=Yanglegend;47861596]Are you new in Rust? Ofc raiding was worth it at many stages of development (LEGACY era for example). Always the main reason of raiding was to get more stuff, not just to lose your time and waste gunpowder. Ofc not always u was succesfull with raiding, but that was ok. With this change raids are just not worth it in 99% of cases. Just do the math and check resoruces to build stone walls vs resorcues and time to craft c4 (4 per wall), clearly unbalanced - solo players may forget about any raiding. :] Few last patches was very promissing and was bringing legacy spirit back, but here we are again in carebears heaven.[/QUOTE] "Garry updated how damage on building parts works, making the outer sides much stronger than the inner."

[QUOTE=trustinrocks;47861328]Was raiding ever worth it?[/QUOTE] If you try to opportunistically raid every base you come across (particularly using explosives), then no, it's not worth it. Using tools to break into a base, it wasn't a big loss or it was a break even / small gain situation at best. But if you took the time to observe people, you find raid-worthy targets, case them out, etc, you can come up with some pretty large scores from raiding a base. I've walked away with a net loss a few times, but most of the time, I've walked away with what I wanted out of a raid, and usually made a profit in some form or another.

We needed this to be able to introduce a mid-tier anyways. When wood sticks and pickaxes are the best way into any tier base the game could never be balanced. Now that tools and wood sticks are garbage we can see them introduce a mid-tier raid device that requires more time than tools and sticks but not the super time required for C4. Not to mention simply keeping nakeds out of your base no longer requires 3 rows of armored walls + blocks.

Raiding should not be easy, i like this change, it motivates people towards farming

I'm not a raider and as a solo player this makes it easier but I wonder when they make changes to balance why do they make such extreme ones.