The patch released on June 4 changed, among other things, the way structures in Rust take damage. As illustrated [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIAeha-pX8A"]here[/URL], walls are now much more resistant to damage from hand tools, as well as explosive ordnance. It has been nearly two weeks since these changes took effect, and I would like to reflect on how these changes have affected overall gameplay.
For the purposes of simplicity, I will use the term "walls" in this thread to refer to any building component that can be placed by the player, specifically the "outer" side of these components, the durability of which was significantly increased with the June 4 patch. I will also use the term "explosives" to refer to C4 (AKA Timed Explosive Charge) and rockets.
Before I share my perspective, let me share a little about my experience with Rust. I started playing in the days of Legacy, then off and on for several months until March. I currently have about 1000 hours in game. For the past three months, I have been playing with a group of friends on the Rustopia US server. If you have watched some of the [URL="https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCNw_DB3W28EHGjHfnpK5g2A/featured"]videos posted by Phaedo82[/URL], several of which have been [URL="http://playrust.com/community-update-37-raid-cam-special/"]prominently featured in the Rust Blog[/URL], you may be familiar with our "crew," known as the Yellow Pants Bandits, or YPB. The group has been fortunate enough to be featured in many of Phaedo's videos, either raiding or defending against a raid.
As a group, YPB has done a lot of raiding. It's one of the things we enjoy most about the game. We've also found ourselves on the other end a lot of times, getting raided by other groups, which is also fun, especially when we can be there to put up somewhat of a defense. We've leveled entire bases and had our base leveled. We enjoy the challenge of building a base that is difficult for others to raid. We enjoy it as much, if not more than the challenge of raiding others' bases. Additions to the game such as rocket launchers and ladders have added new dynamics both to raiding strategies and building strategies, and it has been fun to adapt to them. The "rebalancing" of wall durability, however, has been a very different experience. For myself and most of my friends, it has taken a lot of excitement and enjoyment out of the game.
On Rustopia, and no doubt on other servers as well, the increased durability included in the June 4 patch had the intended effect of significantly reducing the degree to which raiding occurs. The kind of epic, large-group raids that Phaedo captured in his videos no longer occur. Raids in general are very rare. The primary reason for this is that the cost and risk involved with raiding is so much greater. Whereas previously it was possible to break through walls using hand tools such as a pickaxe or hatchet, doing so is no longer practical, as the amount of durability walls have against these tools has been increased by a factor of 10. Using explosives to break through walls has also become much more difficult, as it now takes about double the amount as before.
Aside from the huge jump in resources it takes to raid now, there is also a significant increase in the amount of time it takes to craft the needed explosives. It takes roughly 45 minutes for one player to craft the needed raw materials into one finished C4. The result is dozens of players sitting in their base AFK for hours at a time while they process their sulfur and stuff into explosives.
Previously, we would gather up resources by farming and going after small bases, primarily with hand tools. We'd try to save our explosive materials for raiding the other large-group rivals on the server, regardless of how far away they lived. With the new wall durability, we've given up entirely on trying to use hand tools on walls, and most of our offensive maneuvers have been against whatever unfriendly neighbors are close to where we live. We've been very unmotivated to use explosives at all, as the probability of a gain on investment is very low. Raiding has become more about supplanting the base's inhabitants than about getting loot. I suspect other groups on the server have had much the same experience.
Yes, we are frustrated about how difficult it is to raid, but even more so with how impractical it is for other groups to raid us. Even if the largest group on the server farmed for the whole week and brought more than 100 C4 to raid us, they would still have a very small chance of getting to our loot, let alone leveling our base. We don't even feel the need to upgrade most of our walls anymore because either way, nobody is going to bother making an attempt at us.
If and when the game gets to a point where servers don't need to wipe their maps on a weekly basis, it may become worthwhile to gather the amount of resources needed to raid and systematically take over large chunks of territory, but for the foreseeable future, the slowed pace created by increased wall durability has made the game all but pointless to play.
Yes, the solo players and smaller, more casual groups have a greater chance of survival with the increased durability, but they have nothing to aspire to besides gathering blueprints. They have no chance of doing any significant damage to anyone, let alone the larger groups.
Which brings me to another change I've noticed in the past couple weeks; an increase in the number of people trying to use hacks to raid. A lot of the hacking that occurred before June 4 was PVP-related. Recently, however, we've been seeing an uptick in the number of people trying to use fly hacks and no-clip as a way to bypass a base's defenses. Fortunately, on Rustopia, we have some awesome, active admins, and many hackers have been caught and banned, but not before getting away with a few illegitimate raids. Now that cost-effective raiding has become all but impossible, more players are trying to bypass the challenge of raiding altogether.
The added durability was added to the game with good intention, but the degree to which it increased has made the game significantly unbalanced. A lot of changes occur just by the added durability against hand tools, and that would have been sufficient by itself. In Legacy, it was impossible to use hand tools to raid, and that worked fine for just about everybody. I think an important first step would be to reduce walls' durability against explosives back to previous levels. [URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/playrust/comments/388yhy/seesawing/cru6vi6"]Garry himself has suggested on Reddit[/URL] that doors should be the most vulnerable part of a base, much the same as on Legacy. Perhaps doors should be even less durable than other components against explosives. Alternatively, perhaps new tools could be added to the game that would do damage to doors but not walls.
In short, it's fine to nerf pickaxe raiding, but nerfing C4 and rockets has made the endgame harder for everybody. Let's bring back the old damage for C4 and rockets and keep raiding somewhat practical.
This all boils down to an overly large clan getting bored because they can't destroy every single building on the map anymore. Simple solution bud, quit building mega bases and go for the compound layout. Do something OTHER than ruin the small groups' fun in the game. Host some deathmatches with those gigantic pile of resources your private army collects. Or maybe split your group up to give everyone else a fair shot if the game has gotten too boring. Safer bases means the smaller guys can stockpile some resources to use in combat. That will bring more gun fights into the world, once the constant blueprint grind starts to get easier.
[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47983386]This all boils down to an overly large clan getting bored because they can't destroy every single building on the map anymore. Simple solution bud, quit building mega bases and go for the compound layout. Do something OTHER than ruin the small groups' fun in the game. Host some deathmatches with those gigantic pile of resources your private army collects. Or maybe split your group up to give everyone else a fair shot if the game has gotten too boring. Safer bases means the smaller guys can stockpile some resources to use in combat. That will bring more gun fights into the world, once the constant blueprint grind starts to get easier.[/QUOTE]
1. It's not that we can't destroy every single building on the map anymore. It's that we can't break into ANY building and get a return on our investment.
2. Actually, we have built a compound. This week, we effectively walled off a rather large peninsula and have several relatively small bases spread across it. It doesn't change anything.
3. We still ruin the small groups to some degree because several of us have spent the time we would have normally spent raiding to instead go out as marauders against every random farmer we come across in the wilderness. Looting keys and finding the doors they go to is almost as much fun as a traditional raid.
4. Last but not least, if I wanted it to be just a shooter, I'd go play CS:GO. Raiding is a game mechanic that sets Rust apart, but it has become entirely impractical for everyone. Part of why you build a base is so you can have a relatively safe place from which to shoot other players. Most of the gunfights now are guys in a base shooting at guys outside their base; pretty boring because the guys outside the base have nothing to gain from it.
I agree with the OP, and I would summarize the situation like this: walls are so strong at present that raiding is not practical even for large teams (I'm not in a large team, by the way). This makes rockets and C4 functionally irrelevant, and is a net reduction in fun.
Maybe they should keep the durability of the walls the same but increase the durability of the tools so it costs less tools but takes the same time to break though a wall.
Never liked tool raiding past wood. Ladders, uberwalls--I'm sure the devs will swing back around to balancing them.
[QUOTE=ibanez87;47986181]Maybe they should keep the durability of the walls the same but increase the durability of the tools so it costs less tools but takes the same time to break though a wall.[/QUOTE]
It's not the tool raiding being nerfed that's such a problem. I can deal with that. The problem is walls being so much more resistant to C4 without the C4 being any easier to come by.
yeah nah i agree with this completely and im a solo players 95% of the time
i literally have only raided one base since the change and it was a decoy base with barely anything in it
you can't raid unless youre lucky as fuck and find both the explosives bp and c4 (which you dont)
even a wooden base raid is now unrealistic for the average player. its basically farmville at this point
[QUOTE=Boseknows;47983530]1. It's not that we can't destroy every single building on the map anymore. It's that we can't break into ANY building and get a return on our investment.
[/QUOTE]
I'm almost certain that if you raid people who are online, you will never, if ever get a return on investment if the metric is resources. I imagine some people leave their stuff in boxes when they know its over but I would not think this is common.
[QUOTE]3. We still ruin the small groups to some degree because several of us have spent the time we would have normally spent raiding to instead go out as marauders against every random farmer we come across in the wilderness. Looting keys and finding the doors they go to is almost as much fun as a traditional raid.[/QUOTE]
This along with your OP kind of gives you away as not really wanting to put forth any effort to go raiding. It seems your agenda before and after the changes is entirely focused on stealing resources. I do not imagine as a large clan that was or is too difficult.
[QUOTE]4. Last but not least, if I wanted it to be just a shooter, I'd go play CS:GO. Raiding is a game mechanic that sets Rust apart, but it has become entirely impractical for everyone. Part of why you build a base is so you can have a relatively safe place from which to shoot other players. Most of the gunfights now are guys in a base shooting at guys outside their base; pretty boring because the guys outside the base have nothing to gain from it.[/QUOTE]
To each their own. I know on my server, my small group teamed up with a few other smaller groups to control a piece of the map, keeping hostiles out. We had a lot of fun tonight evicting some new unwanted and hostile neighbors. Last night we defended our neighbors against a raid from across the river. Its actually given a little group like the few that are neighbors on my server a chance.
I think raiding actually takes some planning now which I found very rewarding in my experience this past evening. Its not just blow everything up. This was only my second raid and I did not go in expecting to get a ROI other than to kick some assholes out of town. That was my return on investment. In my opinion the people complaining about the time commitment are mostly trolls who dont want to do anything but harass or raid.
It used to be the big clans would just steam roll the map. That is not the case anymore because they do not want to invest the time to actually procure the necessary resources (if they cant steal it) or craft which is part of the game.
only role playing nerds like the new walls btw
[QUOTE=benjy120;47988116]only role playing nerds like the new walls btw[/QUOTE]
And trolls hate the new walls. I invested time in my walls and the OP whines because he has to invest time to blow them up now.... I can not imagine anyone thinks C4 was balanced before this change, except trolls who just want to get in the game and blow shit up with no commitment. I would advise the OP to move to one those easy mode servers that have 3x-10 resources gather rate.
[QUOTE=billy79;47988118]And trolls hate the new walls. I invested time in my walls and the OP whines because he has to invest time to blow them up now.... I can not imagine anyone thinks C4 was balanced before this change, except trolls.[/QUOTE]
if a large group cant get to you and you cant get to them, what is the point?
all thats left is to sit inside your base and farm iron you will never need, to secure your already secure equipment you use to protect yourself when you go out into the wilderness to collect more resources you will only ever use for roleplaying inside your base like an absolute mad man
the way the game is now is actually more prefferable for clans anyway. because solo players dont have c4s or rocket launchers. so the way the shit is now the only people who can possibly raid anyone ever are groups who have a pool of bps at their finger tips
its boring as fuck
I partly agree. typically the UK rustified server lasts a couple of weeks which isn't enough time to stockpile enough C4 to raid a large base. However, I have witnessed raids on small clan bases so they do happen.
It looks like decay is being increased, I think with the intention of removing entities and increasing the life of a server. I'm all game for this and I get the impression the devs are aiming for more of a long haul game which ties into more difficult to raid bases.
I agree with OP.
But yes if you see now, people are running from Rust. Population is decreasing(The peak of players now is 17k which is far less than 30k pre 4 june).
I played only on modded but even those are empty now. People are bored, there is nothing else to do but to kill each other, or farm your eyes out.
Game at this moment is dead(probably will be resurected in the upcoming patches). But if you like building and farming, this game is for you(and staying afk).
Spear is throwable but it takes 2 + (1 minute for materials with a rock) minutes to make. How that even works?!
[QUOTE=benjy120;47988151]if a large group cant get to you and you cant get to them, what is the point?
all thats left is to sit inside your base and farm iron you will never need, to secure your already secure equipment you use to protect yourself when you go out into the wilderness to collect more resources you will only ever use for roleplaying inside your base like an absolute mad man
the way the game is now is actually more prefferable for clans anyway. because solo players dont have c4s or rocket launchers. so the way the shit is now the only people who can possibly raid anyone ever are groups who have a pool of bps at their finger tips
its boring as fuck[/QUOTE]
a group of 7 players got to a group of five players this past evening.
aren't you aware of the bug? you can still do normal damage if you know what side to blow.
Once bases shift to compounds, you will find raiding much easier. Only have to blow through a few walls to get to their Quarries, Food and Oil Jacks.
Otherwise more raiding tools are in store in the future.
[QUOTE=benjy120;47988151]if a large group cant get to you and you cant get to them, what is the point?
all thats left is to sit inside your base and farm iron you will never need, to secure your already secure equipment you use to protect yourself when you go out into the wilderness to collect more resources you will only ever use for roleplaying inside your base like an absolute mad man
the way the game is now is actually more prefferable for clans anyway. because solo players dont have c4s or rocket launchers. so the way the shit is now the only people who can possibly raid anyone ever are groups who have a pool of bps at their finger tips
its boring as fuck[/QUOTE]
Why should you get to raid other buildings, you admitted you play solo? SOLO PLAYERS SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO RAID SUCCESSFULLY. That's the entire reason wall durability got raised is because people like you kept running around naked with a bunch of spears breaking into literally everything. Now you actually have to pick a target and WORK to get in that base, just like that base builder had to WORK to get all those walls up.
[QUOTE=Bubahl;47988401]aren't you aware of the bug? you can still do normal damage if you know what side to blow.[/QUOTE]
This isn't really a bug. All components have an "inner" side that still takes normal damage, it's true. Triangle floors and foundations are also entirely damage prone as they were before (I suspect they were left out by mistake).
Thing is, most players are smart enough to ensure walls and doors are rotated with the "inner" side facing in and the more durable "outer" sides facing out.
I've heard of bugs/glitches occuring where a wall takes significantly more damage if C4 is placed in a certain spot or from a certain direction. Still, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.
[QUOTE=Boseknows;47991226]This isn't really a bug. All components have an "inner" side that still takes normal damage, it's true. Triangle floors and foundations are also entirely damage prone as they were before (I suspect they were left out by mistake)....
...I've heard of bugs/glitches occuring where a wall takes significantly more damage if C4 is placed in a certain spot or from a certain direction. Still, I'm not sure what you're referring to here.[/QUOTE]
The bug Bubahl is referring to is one where apparently only the north and east facing (I believe) walls are "strong" where as the other 2 are weak, regardless of what side of the wall faces in or out. I gather there was a thread about this on Reddit, and someone posted a video here about a week ago describing the problem.
Personally, I tried to reproduce this bug on the server I play on without success. My base is aligned almost perfectly with the cardinal points. My walls are all in the proper orientation with what is supposed to be the strong side facing out. I spawned in some mats and C4 and built a couple of structures trying to replicate this bug without success. Outer sides were always strong and weak sides always weak no matter the orientation of the wall.
[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47989780]Why should you get to raid other buildings, you admitted you play solo? SOLO PLAYERS SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO RAID SUCCESSFULLY. That's the entire reason wall durability got raised is because people like you kept running around naked with a bunch of spears breaking into literally everything. Now you actually have to pick a target and WORK to get in that base, just like that base builder had to WORK to get all those walls up.[/QUOTE]
lmao whats the point of playing solo then ,just sit inside your base farming gear for groups? is this what you're trying to say...
it doesnt even take any effort to build a strong base btw because the way the game is right now the average player can't even get through a wooden wall
[QUOTE=benjy120;47992689]lmao whats the point of playing solo then ,just sit inside your base farming gear for groups? is this what you're trying to say...
it doesnt even take any effort to build a strong base btw because the way the game is right now the average player can't even get through a wooden wall[/QUOTE]
As a solo player you can easily convert a post raided abandoned building into your own with very little resources. Now you have a strong building that probably only cost yoy a couple walls and will protect you against large clans.
AN armored wall need 3 C4 when it is in the south or east. Does they fix the bug today ??
The last version was a great step towards a more balanced game and funnier for every kind of player.
Before it, a small group (2 to 3 persons) or a "lone wolf" (my prefered way of enjoying Rust) would have a terrible time inside the game, since the bigger clans would simply destroy everything with extremelly ease.
My opinion is that the game should be fun for everyone. For single players, small groups, as large groups as well.
The point to be considered is that the effort inside the game should be balanced for all kind of trends above mentioned. And I do not call "balanced" a game where a week of efforts of a single player would be destroyed by 5 minutes of easy play by a clan group.
So, a [B]well designed[/B] individual base certainly should demand effort and time to get raided, no matter the size of the group. There will be allways bad designed bases, and the player should face the consequence of lack of study/preparation. But a well designed base, made under the effort of days of a single player cannot be punished.
By other hand, IF the the idea of Rust is to have a "clan game" then the mechanics should be changed to something like ARK is doing (force you to enter a clan).
But, if we are talking o freedom of choice, I guess the balance and survival of the less numerous groups should be taken in consideration allways, or all servers will be made by 2 or 3 clans and hundreds of bullied individuals that will give up at some moment.
C4 damage is reportedly back to pre-June4 levels with the new patch. If that's true, I'm satisfied.
[QUOTE=benjy120;47988151]if a large group cant get to you and you cant get to them, what is the point?[/QUOTE]
Maybe its the lack of content in the game besides raiding?
[QUOTE=Boseknows;47983530]1. It's not that we can't destroy every single building on the map anymore. It's that we can't break into ANY building and get a return on our investment.
.[/QUOTE]
C4 and other damage is now back to the old standard.
Frankly, i do not know what you have been seeing but on the server that i play, houses still got raided everywhere. It has indeed been less because people actually needed to be more careful with there C4.
It actually promoted more smart raiding then just brute force attacking.
But i find your nr 1 point frankly disappointing. Your talking from your point of view but try looking at it from the house owners point of view. He also spend a massive amount of time farming resources, melting ore etc to build up his meager defenses.
When you blast past his walls and take those resources, you complain because it does not pay back for your C4. Yea ... and the house owners??? He has the costs to rebuild his walls, repair all the damage that has traveled 3 tiles deep in all directions ( left, right, deep, up, down )! He lost all his resources.
You complain about making a maybe 20% loss on your investment, he has a 100% loss in resources + the resources and time needed to just rebuild his original walls! And the feeling that his defenses are still not able to stop a raider when he is sleeping. So, when does he have the time to raid you? He has not ... This same player will quit after a few days playing because he is fed up with wasting his time. You had your fun, even if it was not perfectly profitable. He did not ...
Stone walls took only 2 C4 like before even with the new patch. It was armored walls ( what are hell to resource gather ) that had the biggest defense.
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Frankly: I rather see tools being more useful and C4/Rocket being less useful. Tools are strategic attack tools, that only damage the walls you focus upon. It takes time to hack away at a wall, giving defenders time or the change that a sleeping house owner logs in just during the raid.
But typical Garry, go big, go boom ... *sigh*. The damage that C4 / rockets do is so big, its also part of the reason why the balance is so wrong with the game. But its spectacular! Fun for Youtube movies.
Lets give a stupid example ( old 3C4-armored patch ): I had a hidden base in the water. It took the raiders about 3 minutes maximum to gain access past 5 armored walls/doors, and with me defending. That is just ridiculous fast. Those same guys had the luxury of being a big clan so they crafted all there C4 from there nice safe big base( because only one big other clan had the resources to be able to attack them, and most attacks only happened closer to a map wipe ).
C4 is such a fast tool, that its just silly. People are in and out of your base so fast, that most people get raided when they are sleeping or not at home. The few times you run into a defender is when you get delayed a bit longer.
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I rather have C4 = one wall damage and maybe more damage but NO blast range on other walls. Rockets less blast damage on walls more against people. AND have tools be efficient against all walls ( including armored ).
This way people need to WORK at raiding, not spend hours crafting in the safety of there base.
But typical Garry... the next patch bring C4 back to pre-levels but makes tool raiding just as impossible.
[QUOTE=benjiro;48003262]Maybe its the lack of content in the game besides raiding?
C4 and other damage is now back to the old standard.
Frankly, i do not know what you have been seeing but on the server that i play, houses still got raided everywhere. It has indeed been less because people actually needed to be more careful with there C4.
It actually promoted more smart raiding then just brute force attacking.
But i find your nr 1 point frankly disappointing. Your talking from your point of view but try looking at it from the house owners point of view. He also spend a massive amount of time farming resources, melting ore etc to build up his meager defenses.
When you blast past his walls and take those resources, you complain because it does not pay back for your C4. Yea ... and the house owners??? He has the costs to rebuild his walls, repair all the damage that has traveled 3 tiles deep in all directions ( left, right, deep, up, down )! He lost all his resources.
You complain about making a maybe 20% loss on your investment, he has a 100% loss in resources + the resources and time needed to just rebuild his original walls! And the feeling that his defenses are still not able to stop a raider when he is sleeping. So, when does he have the time to raid you? He has not ... This same player will quit after a few days playing because he is fed up with wasting his time. You had your fun, even if it was not perfectly profitable. He did not ...
Stone walls took only 2 C4 like before even with the new patch. It was armored walls ( what are hell to resource gather ) that had the biggest defense.
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Frankly: I rather see tools being more useful and C4/Rocket being less useful. Tools are strategic attack tools, that only damage the walls you focus upon. It takes time to hack away at a wall, giving defenders time or the change that a sleeping house owner logs in just during the raid.
But typical Garry, go big, go boom ... *sigh*. The damage that C4 / rockets do is so big, its also part of the reason why the balance is so wrong with the game. But its spectacular! Fun for Youtube movies.
Lets give a stupid example ( old 3C4-armored patch ): I had a hidden base in the water. It took the raiders about 3 minutes maximum to gain access past 5 armored walls/doors, and with me defending. That is just ridiculous fast. Those same guys had the luxury of being a big clan so they crafted all there C4 from there nice safe big base( because only one big other clan had the resources to be able to attack them, and most attacks only happened closer to a map wipe ).
C4 is such a fast tool, that its just silly. People are in and out of your base so fast, that most people get raided when they are sleeping or not at home. The few times you run into a defender is when you get delayed a bit longer.
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I rather have C4 = one wall damage and maybe more damage but NO blast range on other walls. Rockets less blast damage on walls more against people. AND have tools be efficient against all walls ( including armored ).
This way people need to WORK at raiding, not spend hours crafting in the safety of there base.
But typical Garry... the next patch bring C4 back to pre-levels but makes tool raiding just as impossible.[/QUOTE]
all very good points in my opinion.
to touch on tools, i think the reason they were nerfed effectively came down to trying to delay endgame, especially when players would do things like rest books on the mouse button and walk away for 10 minutes while the game hacks away at a wall. but i agree, raiders do not actually have the same investment loss as defenders. and unless the game is balanced enough to encourage players to invest the effort into bases, the game will end up all raiders and no one to raid. reducing the blast radius of c4, and the ability to lob them would both probably help move it back towards balance.
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