Does anyone know what the actual plan is for tool cupboards?
Right now they are probably the most important part of your base design... and that is a stark contrast to the 'we are going to phase out tool-cupboards as an anti-raid device' we keep seeing in the devblogs.
I thought everything was great back when we could use ladders as an offensive tool. [They were soooooo easy to defend against on the outside of your base. Don't even get me started on the reddit crowd that bitched about them daily].
Tool cupboards were entirely anti-griefing back then as a raider didn't need access to your tool cupboard to go about their business. The knock on effect of removing ladders was that raiders then needed to start accessing cupboards and the reddit crowd then moved on to sealing the removal of that awesome building tool, the halfblock.
[QUOTE=joejoejoey04;49173340]Does anyone know what the actual plan is for tool cupboards?
Right now they are probably the most important part of your base design... and that is a stark contrast to the 'we are going to phase out tool-cupboards as an anti-raid device' we keep seeing in the devblogs.
I thought everything was great back when we could use ladders as an offensive tool. [They were soooooo easy to defend against on the outside of your base. Don't even get me started on the reddit crowd that bitched about them daily].
Tool cupboards were entirely anti-griefing back then as a raider didn't need access to your tool cupboard to go about their business. The knock on effect of removing ladders was that raiders then needed to start accessing cupboards and the reddit crowd then moved on to sealing the removal of that awesome building tool, the halfblock.[/QUOTE]
I think the most effective way to remove them would be the creation of clans and/or permissions assignment.
If you could simply treat the original foundation piece as a child of the person who placed it, and all attached pieces then belong to them as well, they could dish out permission to other people for building/destroying.
There would need to be more things flushed out as far as derelict buildings and such and how that would be treated, maybe there could be a separate rot timer for ownership, but then again by the time the foundation rots the whole thing collapses anyways so maybe it doesn't matter.
On the other hand I also rather enjoy figuring out ways to break into people's bases with creative navigation of the current protection dome and finding gaps in the security, so I wouldn't mind keeping the general idea of them. Maybe just tweak the way authorization is done so only the original builder can authorize people and if it's destroyed the protection dome stays intact for an extra 6 hours or so, so the raiding party can't just replace it with their own and easily raid the rest of your place.
Depends on how realistic they want it to be...
Option 1: Realistic, bases get griefed and shit sucks so nut up and deal with it
Option 2: Not realistic at all and use the ARK method which is simple and it works. Owner/Clan can build within X radius of the foundations, no need for magical cupboard bullshit. Done.
[QUOTE=almosttactful;49173713]Not realistic at all and use the ARK method which is simple and it works. Owner/Clan can build within X radius of the foundations, no need for magical cupboard bullshit. Done.[/QUOTE]
Rust's objects don't have any notion of ownership, because automatic ownership is even greater magical bullshit than the magical bullshit cupboard currently in place as a temporary stopgap until proper base defenses and raid balance are added.
[QUOTE=almosttactful;49173713]Depends on how realistic they want it to be...[/QUOTE]
There's a whole lot of variations between those 2 options, which is where I think it should land. You should be responsible for checking the security of your own base.
[QUOTE=almosttactful;49173713]Option 1: Realistic, bases get griefed and shit sucks so nut up and deal with it[/QUOTE]
Simply dealing with someone who puts a foundation and walls off all your doors is not really reasonable, if you want to talk realism, I think you'd notice before the drywall guys showed up someone was framing walls around your front door.
[QUOTE=almosttactful;49173713]Option 2: Not realistic at all and use the ARK method which is simple and it works. Owner/Clan can build within X radius of the foundations, no need for magical cupboard bullshit. Done.[/QUOTE]
Just building a block somewhere shouldn't guarantee a no build zone all around you, else you will see a litter of foundations strewn about screwing up the ability to expand bases without spending effort destroying them. I'd be surprised if this didn't happen in ark, though I've never played it.
[QUOTE=almosttactful;49173713]Depends on how realistic they want it to be...
Option 1: Realistic, bases get griefed and shit sucks so nut up and deal with it
Option 2: Not realistic at all and use the ARK method which is simple and it works. Owner/Clan can build within X radius of the foundations, no need for magical cupboard bullshit. Done.[/QUOTE]
By griefing I mean when someone just randomly runs up to your house and makes stupid additions, like adding their own airlock onto yours on ill prepared legacy bases, for example.
well the solution in legacy was always to build in a space that doesn't allow any further building ie between rocks in the mountains, or on a hill and put down spikes etc on the shallow end of the foundations. we don't need the TC to protect us, and it's being used primarily as a defence from raiding, not griefing.
i personally think though that we need to get over the fact that people will fuck with our houses. part of the game at the moment is figuring out new ways to troll; in legacy without this mechanic, there is far less "griefing", with basically the only things considered such is blocking a doorway with your own door, or sealing a stairwell with a ceiling block (which can't be broken).
the other thing that is different in new rust is building on site instantly. even in legacy you had to wait to build each part, and then could have them stolen. now we have instant build because people hated the hammer sim, but didn't realise that same ease for construction is given to the ass hat who wants to fill your house with halfblocks. i think there should be a building delay, even if it's only 5-10 seconds each block. that way you actually need to put effort into fucking with someone.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175225]well the solution in legacy was always to build in a space that doesn't allow any further building ie between rocks in the mountains, or on a hill and put down spikes etc on the shallow end of the foundations.
i personally think though that we need to get over the fact that people will fuck with our houses. part of the game at the moment is figuring out new ways to troll; in legacy without this mechanic, there is far less "griefing", with basically the only things considered such is blocking a doorway with your own door, or sealing a stairwell with a ceiling block (which can't be broken).[/QUOTE]
uhh... that is not part of the game. Maybe what you mean to say is some people enjoy finding a way to exploit a systems weaknesses to "troll" other people for their own amusement.
And if you think legacy had far less griefing then the current build, I would have to say you didn't play much legacy.
Also, saying that people need to just "get over it" is like playing an FPS and being shot by your own teammate over and over, and being told "it's part of the game, get over it". The game was not designed with the intent that you should worry about someone barricading you into your own house, just as an fps is not designed for teammates to just kill each other every round. It exists because the mechanics that allow it to exist are essential to other parts of the game that are not "trolling".
[editline]23rd November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175225]that way you actually need to put effort into fucking with someone.[/QUOTE]
You and I definitely play for very different reasons.
well what do you think trolls play rust to do? i'm not saying it's part of FP's vision for rust, i'm saying it's part of the current dynamic.
as for the whole "not playing much legacy if i think...", i'm sorry you had a shit experience. but in legacy i experienced 4 things that could be considered greifing and none of them really are if you understand the basics of the game;
1) new metal door on my house. tough shit, that house isn't mine anymore, so not griefing.
2) walled in my house so i can't get out. again, i didn't defend my house well enough and they were able to build around me. tough shit.
3) c4 spamming my house. well shit, they really didn't like me. tough shit, they have both the explosives and c4 bps so they probably played for ages, or were lucky. tier 3 beats tier 2.
4) guy seals my stairwell with a ceiling block. this one sucks, but if they made the ceiling blocks destroyable, it would be fine. even c4 doesn't dent 'em.
care to list the ways how legacy players griefed beyond those? because in experimental we now have a magical forcefield to stop players building INSIDE my base, using "remove" to destroy the whole thing without any high tier gear, blocking my ability to build not by careful placement of the base but by smashing my magic box and placing their own magic box. there are more ways to grief in experimental, and because it's less feature complete, trolls have taken to finding new ways to fuck with people instead of playing the game.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175335]well what do you think trolls play rust to do? i'm not saying it's part of FP's vision for rust, i'm saying it's part of the current dynamic.
as for the whole "not playing much legacy if i think...", i'm sorry you had a shit experience. but in legacy i experienced 4 things that could be considered greifing and none of them really are if you understand the basics of the game;
1) new metal door on my house. tough shit, that house isn't mine anymore, so not griefing.
2) walled in my house so i can't get out. again, i didn't defend my house well enough and they were able to build around me. tough shit.
3) c4 spamming my house. well shit, they really didn't like me. tough shit, they have both the explosives and c4 bps so they probably played for ages, or were lucky. tier 3 beats tier 2.
4) guy waiting outside my door to fuck me up. guess i should have designed my base better, tough shit.
care to list the ways how legacy players griefed beyond those? because in experimental we now have a magical forcefield to stop players building INSIDE my base, using "remove" to destroy the whole thing without any high tier gear, blocking my ability to build not by careful placement of the base but by smashing my magic box and placing their own magic box. there are more ways to grief in experimental, and because it's less feature complete, trolls have taken to finding new ways to fuck with people instead of playing the game.[/QUOTE]
Off the top of my head...
Pillar barricades
Placing pillars on a house someone is currently working on just to ruin the design (much worse in legacy since pillars could NOT be removed)
Blocking doors with barricades
Blocking doors with spikes
Placing spikes near walls that could hurt people inside if they walked too close to the side
holding E on a door after someone had opened it so they couldn't close it again, allowing your teammates to then kill them and go in after
that quick compilation along with the other stuff already mentioned...
Also, how is c4 spamming a house griefing? I don't think you understand what I mean when I say griefing, just killing someone or breaking a wall isn't what I mean, I mean using a system in a way that it wasn't intended to be used to intentionally upset the play-ability of another player.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175335]well what do you think trolls play rust to do? i'm not saying it's part of FP's vision for rust, i'm saying it's part of the current dynamic.[/QUOTE]
Hacking wasn't in their vision for rust. Is that a part of the current dynamic?
[editline]23rd November 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175335]because in experimental we now have a magical forcefield to stop players building INSIDE my base, using "remove" to destroy the whole thing without any high tier gear, blocking my ability to build not by careful placement of the base but by smashing my magic box and placing their own magic box. there are more ways to grief in experimental, and because it's less feature complete, trolls have taken to finding new ways to fuck with people instead of playing the game.[/QUOTE]
I was trying to figure out what you are saying here but I can't, are you saying the tool cupboard is griefing the raider's ability to build in a base that isn't their's? Also you can't remove things once it's been there for 5 minutes, that was removed a while ago if I remember correctly?
I wish the building side of Legacy was placed back into this one. Make it so foundations, ceilings and pillars cant be blown out. And allow us to put pillars on all 9 areas of a foundation.
Legacy was great how you could use your own building to protect yourself. These days, people just blow out a foundation or 2 and walk in or just blow the entire thing down.
i think you are making a lot of assumptions about me that are influencing your ability to understand what i am saying, so let me clarify; i do not think that greifing/hacking [B]should[/B] be a part of the game, but currently it [B]is[/B] a big part of the game.
in my mind, griefing is abusing exploits/game mechanics in a way that is harmful to another player, but only PROVIDED there is no reasonable defense against it. it's metagaming in d&d. it's using esp or aimbot. it's ddos'ing a server.
pillar barricades are not griefing, they are using a game dynamic to prevent other players building there. if someone can build pillars next to you WHILE YOU ARE BUILDING, then you are not defending yourself appropriately. and this can be done in experimental too, even more easily since you don't need to have crafted pillars in advance, just have a hammer in your slots and enough resources.
blocking doors with spikes and barricades is not griefing, because you can destroy them with attacks. it's a pretty good tactic to contain a player temporarily, but again, you need to have crafted spikes/barricades in advance.
i agree that spikes harming people through walls/floors is bad coding, but disagree it's griefing. they are stationary and destructable. they can be worked around. it's a bit like beartrap spam in experimental. it sucks when you walk into one randomly placed in the woods, but you should be looking where you are going.
i think that holding e on doors to prevent their use could be a game mechanic; it makes sense that a person could grab a door while someone tries to close it. that said, i don't think it was intentional, and comes down to bad coding. but again, is not something that a player has no defense against. don't open a door if someone is close by. avoid hostiles if you are incapable of defending yourself. don't run into your base to hide from KOS players or raiders on your tail.
the statement about TC can be boiled down to "the TC creates more issues than it solves." on the one hand, yes it does prevent a raiders ability to break in; but more so, it grants them powers to grief once they get access to the previous TC. (yes, the remove function is finally downgraded, but previously you could level a house just by authorising yourself and clicking the mouse. at least in legacy you needed a bunch of c4 to do that.)
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]i think you are making a lot of assumptions about me that are influencing your ability to understand what i am saying, so let me clarify; i do not think that greifing/hacking [B]should[/B] be a part of the game, but currently it [B]is[/B] a big part of the game.
in my mind, griefing is abusing exploits/game mechanics in a way that is harmful to another player, but only PROVIDED there is no reasonable defense against it. it's metagaming in d&d. it's using esp or aimbot. it's ddos'ing a server.[/QUOTE]
That definition is full of loopholes and contradictions. Anti-Cheat could be considered a reasonable defense. Active admins banning cheaters could be a reaso... nvm I don't know what the point in arguing this is.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]pillar barricades are not griefing, they are using a game dynamic to prevent other players building there. if someone can build pillars next to you WHILE YOU ARE BUILDING, then you are not defending yourself appropriately. and this can be done in experimental too, even more easily since you don't need to have crafted pillars in advance, just have a hammer in your slots and enough resources.[/QUOTE]
This is not what pillar barricades are, that's just placing pillars. Pillar barricades were a method of placing barricades on pillars to create a vertical stack as high as you want, either for climbing or blocking off all windows of a base. It was not an intentional part of the system, it was an exploit.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]blocking doors with spikes and barricades is not griefing, because you can destroy them with attacks. it's a pretty good tactic to contain a player temporarily, but again, you need to have crafted spikes/barricades in advance.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter that you can destroy them, griefing doesn't only apply to something that can't be undone with a undetermined amount of work. Blocking someone in their house is not what the developers think should be the standard method of play, that's why they've added tool cupboards in the first place, to help prevent that sort of play.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]i agree that spikes harming people through walls/floors is bad coding, but disagree it's griefing. they are stationary and destructable. they can be worked around. it's a bit like beartrap spam in experimental. it sucks when you walk into one randomly placed in the woods, but you should be looking where you are going.[/QUOTE]
So you agree that you shouldn't be able to do it, but you can, so it's not griefing... what was that you said about hacking being griefing?
And who cares about traps out in the wild? I don't see why you are making a point about that.
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]i think that holding e on doors to prevent their use could be a game mechanic; it makes sense that a person could grab a door while someone tries to close it. that said, i don't think it was intentional, and comes down to bad coding. but again, is not something that a player has no defense against. don't open a door if someone is close by. avoid hostiles if you are incapable of defending yourself. don't run into your base to hide from KOS players or raiders on your tail.[/QUOTE]
Hmm... how about don't play on a server if someone's cheating on it?, sounds just as reasonable as avoiding hostility at your own base.
Again, they didn't intend for it to be in the game, but you can do it so it's not griefing... still thinking about that hacking argument...
[QUOTE=mrknifey;49175732]the statement about TC can be boiled down to "the TC creates more issues than it solves." on the one hand, yes it does prevent a raiders ability to break in; but more so, it grants them powers to grief once they get access to the previous TC. (yes, the remove function is finally downgraded, but previously you could level a house just by authorising yourself and clicking the mouse. at least in legacy you needed a bunch of c4 to do that.)[/QUOTE]
Ok... well the "remove" feature is NOT in the game because people were doing that.... So why are you making an argument using a feature that was removed as your primary evidence?
And in legacy... you didn't even need to be inside to start messing with the house, so how is that better then having to break in and find the tool cupboard first before you can start messing with it?
I'd love to keep debating these points of interest with you but honestly I can't find any logic in any of the statements you made.
it's alright you can't understand the logic in my statements; i'm having the same issues with what you are saying.
lets start with this. "greifing" is purely subjective in nature. what one person expects and tolerates, another person feels is unfair. between you and i, we have differing opinions on the players responsibilities and reasonable expectations; i think we can agree that players actively doing things to harm the experience for other players are unwanted, but the details get a bit screwy from there.
anticheat is a reasonable defense; everyone has to have it, and most players work within the realm of fair play. those who work around anticheat are cheating, and likely greifing people by gaining an unfair advantage that cannot be resisted with in game mechanics. admins banning people is the same. it's not greifing to kill a player who could defend themselves if they ran, hid, or worked their way to better equipment; it is greifing to kill a player at a fixed spawn site over and over before they can even move. i suppose that is my opinion, but that is how i consider if someone is greifing me, or playing the game.
i'm more used to hearing the term pillar ladders for what you describe. IMO it's an exploit, but not greifing. raiding a player is a game mechanic already in place; this is just exploiting a building glitch to cheaply scale a building. you need to build the parts, you need to safely get to the base with the parts, and you need to build the ladder. and raiding is not griefing, because you can defend against it.
blocking players in their home temporarily IS a mechanic they allowed when they made legacy. you are restricted in where you could place every item in world, and were able to place these things in front of doors etc. in addition, they made them destructable, unlike pillars and ceilings which were indestructable to everything; it's pretty easy to infer from that they wanted you to use them as barricades. if they didn't, you would be unable to use them like that.
i never said you shouldn't be able to place spikes that harm people through walls, i said it was bad coding; it makes no sense for spikes to magically damage you through a wall, but spikes affecting players from the other side of a wall is not griefing. traps in the wild are the same; it's not greifing, the trap is doing exactly what it is meant to...harm another player that touches it. just watch where you are going, and avoid the trap/spikes.
as for the doors; players need to take some responsibility for their own actions. if someone is chasing you, why lead them to your base? if they are right behind you, and you know they can stop you closing the door again, why would you open that door? turn around and die, respawn inside, kit up and come get your stuff. if someone is watching over your shoulder at the atm, do you just go on and type in your pin while they watch? if they didn't intend it to be in game, it would be removed; interestingly enough, it's not in experimental, so it probably was an unintended game mechanic. but still not greifing since you can avoid it by NOT OPENING THE DOOR in front of enemies in the first place.
IMO the first issue is instant building. if players weren't so impatient and could deal with a few seconds delay for each block built, filling a base with halfblocks (or whatever will be used instead now they have been removed) would take longer, and be less likely unless you have really pissed someone off. instead, we have the second issue in the form of a magical box that grants ownership and protection to a base where the devs themselves want NO ARTIFICIAL OWNERSHIP. and more issues pile up on top of it, such as ladders (a primarily raiding tool) being blocked from building without permission from the base owner, or the now nerfed "remove" function of the TC that allowed a player to demolish a house in seconds.
all this is my opinion though, and all that is yours. suppose we will probably just go around in circles from here.
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