Myself and quite a few guys have managed multiple servers at one point, and have logged many many hours in this game. We have played through Legacy and current Experimental, and we are absolutely the pirates the care bears don't want to see.
I wanted to say that the game in its current state should not have C4, as there is plenty of balancing work that needs to be done. It has once again created that end game atmosphere that was present in legacy. The people that have the C4 own the map, and anyone trying to establish pretty much get raided nightly. I thought that with the reinforced steel upgrade path it would be the balance that hinders raiding ease of access, but all I see when I run around maps now it reinforced steel houses with single holes blown into them that grants access to the juicy booty.
Before C4 in Experimental, in my groups opinion, it was a blast to raid by having to chop down walls. The time it took to cut through someones walls granted the defender enough to defend himself especially if the wall you just chopped down led to another wall that needed to be chopped. Before we would have to setup a forward base with windows to watch their structure looking for opportunities to pop off the defenders in their own windows and roofs. While at the same time you had a couple extra guys with hatchets trying to break down a wall so we could breach. The balance was perfect, and both sides if armed enough and had the man power, could fight off an attacking raid or attack a well fortified structure. Hell I have memories of a couple raids lasting 2 hours of constant back and forth firearms combat.
Now its just drop C4, duck and cover, and then breach..... BORING! And half the time, to first sign of a explosion and the defenders either flee or suicide run into you. This isn't strategy, this you taking away the destroy mechanic out of the hammer that needed a cabinet to authorize, into a destroy mechanic that doesn't need a cabinet. I mean the reward of getting to destroy the entirety of the defenders structure was bounty enough, but you had to work for it.
Anyhow, just some food for thought. Im sure there is plenty of change coming to this game, but this is the first time since the Experimental release that IMO you have taken a step backwards. The previous raiding system was much more entertaining, emergent, and down right action packed.
Good luck to you.
There might be a way to have both. Maybe they could make C4 even more difficult to craft (yet less grindy) by requiring a rare, less common ingredient, like maybe nitroamines from the crystals in the arctic. Then just tweak melee damage against walls and durability to make chopping a realistic option as before. Most would probably do that, but if someone were tenacious enough, they could still go all Demolition Man...
Get rid of C4 entirely... move to powder kegs that do way less damage... with variable length (determined by you) fuses that burn at variable speeds. Explosions should not be directed. If you use a short fuse, and it goes fast... you go with it.
Powder kegs, pipe bombs, and sticks of dynamite that you find around caves and any other mining-related landmarks... GET RID OF PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES. How the hell can everyone craft plastic explosives ? We can hardly make clothes for ourselves.
If we go down this path, we have to get rid of the code lock and every weapon "above" the eoka gun.
[QUOTE=fluidsc;47448597]Get rid of C4 entirely... move to powder kegs that do way less damage... with variable length (determined by you) fuses that burn at variable speeds. Explosions should not be directed. If you use a short fuse, and it goes fast... you go with it.
Powder kegs, pipe bombs, and sticks of dynamite that you find around caves and any other mining-related landmarks... GET RID OF PLASTIC EXPLOSIVES. How the hell can everyone craft plastic explosives ? We can hardly make clothes for ourselves.[/QUOTE]
on this subject i reckon that c4 should be found only, and explosive barrels should be craftable but more random in terms of fuse time, and explosive potential/damage.
We dont have to get rid of code locks. They existed in the world, odds are indoors... and we would have been able to find them and take them. But becoming a chemist suddenly and being able to make plastic explosives is just asinine. I am good with C4 being something you can find... but having it craftable by anyone who finds a piece of paper explaining how to make it? Would not work very well.
I am good with the guns that we have... They are rusted peices of crap we found out in the world. Hell, make them a bit easier to find, take out the BPs for them.. I am still happy with that. I have not crafted a single gun in this Rust, and NEVER go out without at least 2. But technically... I doubt I would wake up after an apocalypse and have the wherewithal to craft plastic explosives, or a gun that would be even remotely reliable. On the other hand, gun powder is easy to make... its not too hard to pack it into a barrel and light a fuse.
Rust isn't aiming for realism and about the c4 matter, the defenders are simply bad then, the good ones if they are online would just not stay exactly next to the wall where u place it but once u break in they will shoot. Having to chop down walls so that the one behind can repair them for hours is boring.
I don't think C4 has ever been the problem, just the lack of an ability to defend your base unless you are online. This will change when more content such as traps are added to the game.
I really hate the realism argument. It's such a weak yet overused argument I wish would just stop. If they added higher tiers of melee weapons that destroy walls faster but take more to craft/maintain, it could be balanced pretty well. C4 is a bit harder to balance, but not impossible. I'm fine with either way they lean, but I definitely wouldn't be against just removing c4 and leaving all other tech in the game.
[QUOTE=Damoc;47448673]If we go down this path, we have to get rid of the code lock and every weapon "above" the eoka gun.[/QUOTE]
personally,i think code locks should be replaced with combination locks.
Still requires a code,different mesh and textures.It seems much more viable compared to the code lock.
[img]http://www.kaba.ch/media-resized/534794/v3/resized952x-1/zahlenknopfgarnitur-la-gard-1777.jpg[/img]
Wonder if we will ever have locksmithing in the game.
[QUOTE=DCWarHound;47450701]personally,i think code locks should be replaced with combination locks.
[/QUOTE]
by memory that was one of the concepts being thrown around. not sure why they went the tech styled code lock when a combination lock could still use a 4 digit "number".
[QUOTE=mrknifey;47450735]by memory that was one of the concepts being thrown around. not sure why they went the tech styled code lock when a combination lock could still use a 4 digit "number".[/QUOTE]
The interface wouldn't even really need to change much. Drop it to three numbers between 1 - 99 (or whatever the range on a code lock is), key in 3-6 numbers instead of 4, done. Sure, you could technically add the act of spinning the tumbler, but that's just getting a little silly.
[QUOTE=Zipper Bear;47450614]I really hate the realism argument. It's such a weak yet overused argument I wish would just stop. If they added higher tiers of melee weapons that destroy walls faster but take more to craft/maintain, it could be balanced pretty well. C4 is a bit harder to balance, but not impossible. I'm fine with either way they lean, but I definitely wouldn't be against just removing c4 and leaving all other tech in the game.[/QUOTE]
Realism is something I have never really seen the appeal of in games. Somewhat realistic to make it more grounded and understandable makes sense, but if games were actually realistic, they would be extremely boring to be honest. I have to agree, because isn't the point of a game to have fun, and do things you can't do in real life?
I'm fairly certain that C4 was added to stop people from bitching and complaining that it wasn't in the game. Before it got added, it seemed like there was a new thread about explosives every day, and now we don't see them but we get these threads instead, granted to a much less degree of frequency.
I like the points you made in OP, and I agree you mostly that C4 is unwanted and out of place in our current state of the game, however, I also realize that the amount of bitching and complaining got REALLY, REALLY bad and annoying BEFORE C4 was added, so can you imagine the backlash if it's taken away? It's basically stuck here now, [U]what we need is the ability for server owners to define loot tables.[/U]
What game are you guys playing? Last I checked it takes roughly 45 min of craft time (GP, explosives) to make 1 c4. It takes 4 c4 to take out an armored wall, and no self respecting base lets you get to phat loots by taking out 1 wall. Not to mention everyone puts their tool cabinet up high then destroys the blocks to get up so you have to blow up more floors to get it to collapse so you only get the loot that falls out of the box.
Long story short, using c4 is rarely profitable.
Hm. I actually thing that there should be C4 right now. Why? Because it shows the devs how much they need to balance stuff out.
Don't mind C4 being in the game but it definitely needs to be looked at for balance. Yes it takes a long time to craft, but one solid evening crafting explosives can net you enough C4 to destroy a lot of homes.
I'd rather it be much harder to get C4 but have it do more area damage. Add in kegs to do much less damage and less area damage. And make them decently expensive. Then there's a trade off between destroying lots of walls, stairs, supplies vs. taking longer to destroy a wall to get up stairs, etc.
Summary - Issue is cost, variety of options, and damage output.
I think C4 is in a pretty good place atm apart from not being able to raid clans with large bases.
We tested base designs to see who could make the most secure base in 5hours without building on water or on rocks,best place was a 3x3x5 surrounded by four 3x3x2 which took 4xc4 to take out the foundations of one of the small houses and then getting on the roof of the main building via twig tower and using 2xc4 to get in from above into one of the loot rooms (middle one).not sure if it was the most efficient method but they used 4xc4 to get into the other loot rooms (blowing 2 walls at a time).
The whole base was made of stone and took around 8-10xc4 to get in,raiding it took around 10-20min.
Overall it wasn't worth it to use so much c4.
[QUOTE=99victor;47446578]Myself and quite a few guys have managed multiple servers at one point, and have logged many many hours in this game. We have played through Legacy and current Experimental, and we are absolutely the pirates the care bears don't want to see.
I wanted to say that the game in its current state should not have C4, as there is plenty of balancing work that needs to be done. It has once again created that end game atmosphere that was present in legacy. The people that have the C4 own the map, and anyone trying to establish pretty much get raided nightly. I thought that with the reinforced steel upgrade path it would be the balance that hinders raiding ease of access, but all I see when I run around maps now it reinforced steel houses with single holes blown into them that grants access to the juicy booty.
Before C4 in Experimental, in my groups opinion, it was a blast to raid by having to chop down walls. The time it took to cut through someones walls granted the defender enough to defend himself especially if the wall you just chopped down led to another wall that needed to be chopped. Before we would have to setup a forward base with windows to watch their structure looking for opportunities to pop off the defenders in their own windows and roofs. While at the same time you had a couple extra guys with hatchets trying to break down a wall so we could breach. The balance was perfect, and both sides if armed enough and had the man power, could fight off an attacking raid or attack a well fortified structure. Hell I have memories of a couple raids lasting 2 hours of constant back and forth firearms combat.
Now its just drop C4, duck and cover, and then breach..... BORING! And half the time, to first sign of a explosion and the defenders either flee or suicide run into you. This isn't strategy, this you taking away the destroy mechanic out of the hammer that needed a cabinet to authorize, into a destroy mechanic that doesn't need a cabinet. I mean the reward of getting to destroy the entirety of the defenders structure was bounty enough, but you had to work for it.
Anyhow, just some food for thought. Im sure there is plenty of change coming to this game, but this is the first time since the Experimental release that IMO you have taken a step backwards. The previous raiding system was much more entertaining, emergent, and down right action packed.
Good luck to you.[/QUOTE]
ahahahah, no.
if you use c4 on my base you'll quickly understand that you... had to pick up the whole 30 c4 you've left you your base, to cut my legs down and see all my valhalla fall down. C4 is ok.
it's how people build up their bases that is boring, i see so many shitty houses around. But c4 is super fine, in terms of damage (350) and cost (40 minutes crafting for 1 c4)
[QUOTE=DCWarHound;47473272]I think C4 is in a pretty good place atm apart from not being able to raid clans with large bases.
We tested base designs to see who could make the most secure base in 5hours without building on water or on rocks,best place was a 3x3x5 surrounded by four 3x3x2 which took 4xc4 to take out the foundations of one of the small houses and then getting on the roof of the main building via twig tower and using 2xc4 to get in from above into one of the loot rooms (middle one).not sure if it was the most efficient method but they used 4xc4 to get into the other loot rooms (blowing 2 walls at a time).
The whole base was made of stone and took around 8-10xc4 to get in,raiding it took around 10-20min.
Overall it wasn't worth it to use so much c4.[/QUOTE]
Then this should highlight the fact that C4 is "overpriced" and that raiding a simple base like that isnt worth it with the current C4 Costs.
currently the cost of gunpowder is a bit silly. 10 charcoal and 10 sulfur for 5 gunpowder??? when it takes 1 cloth and 2 animal fat for 5 low grade fuel??? the ratios don't make much sense, the very least gunpowder should be 1:1 i.e. 10 charcoal 10 sulfur = 10 gunpowder and a reduction in crafting time, dafuq 45 mins to create 1 C4 who the hell wants to spend 1.5 hours crafting 2 items that will only get you through 1 stone wall which should only give you access to someones base, 3 hours for 2 stone wall breaches?... madness...
next cloth requirements for clothing..... again seriously wtf, are you seriously telling me if i kill a bear im not going to have enough cloth for a winter coat? its a bear ffs and not a small one either.
Clothing currently is a waste, its an investment which draws attention to you, the minor defence value doesnt warrant the added attention it brings, and the cost of the clothing is too steep to warrant crafting it each time given that it costs 50..... for a hunting bow...
next on my rant list is Gun Blueprints, these bastids that fortify the rad towns by walling them off have a silly advantage over the entire server, they no longer need to craft ammo or guns, which is a huge resource saving, meaning all resources they gather is going towards C4 manufacturing, additionally meaning they corner off the gun spawns as they are far more frequent in the gun crates than in the random barrels, additionally means that they then corner off the air drops as they heavily out gun the non clanned fortified rad town players and claim the air drops. Make gun Bp's more frequent within barrels so were not massively restricted to rad town.
Legacy had this where the guns were found in crates within rad towns, but the bp's were found from rad bears and wolf's at least for the more common guns which gave smaller clubs of people a fighting chance against the superior armed clans
making guns and C4 more readily achievable for everyone can make bring the lone players and small groups of friends on to a more level playing field with those big clans.
the con is that C4 will be more readily available for the bigger clans but like so what we have a chance to fight back!!!
C4 is super fine.
If you want to feel safe in your small house, the C4 prices right now are ok.
If you lower the prices (in terms of crafting time, since the resources needed are super fine) you'll just see more abbandoned small houses, since the bigger houses still need more than 30 C4s.
If you're struggling to make the proper C4 to put down your target, it just means it's out of your league.
Example: I play with friends, just couple of them is aware of how much time gp takes to be crafted for C4, just thanks to the three of us since the last patch we created an average of 3.5 C4 per gaming session (around 5 hours).
That's a super fine time, if this timers were lower, there would just be more "holefilled" houses.
If you play alone, the whole thing called Rust is obviously a thougher world; but i belive it's intended, since there's no rule in this game except a couple self learned like: "you don't ride a house with people inside if you don't have enough c4" and "togheter is better than alone".
the resource requirement are not superfine. The ratios dont make sense the sulfur requirement is ridiculous! your example is irrelevant your looking at it from your play style, im looking at this from a gameplay in general and comparison to rust legacy.
if people give up because they've been raided once then boohoo this game isnt for you, but, making weapons more available to the masses to at least be able to stand up to roving clan bands so that everyone gets a taste of PvP then surely thats a winner?
[QUOTE=ScypherWins;47473688]the resource requirement are not superfine. The ratios dont make sense the sulfur requirement is ridiculous! your example is irrelevant your looking at it from your play style, im looking at this from a gameplay in general and comparison to rust legacy.
if people give up because they've been raided once then boohoo this game isnt for you, but, making weapons more available to the masses to at least be able to stand up to roving clan bands so that everyone gets a taste of PvP then surely thats a winner?[/QUOTE]
I insisit on the superfine part of the sentence:
10 sulfur per 5 gun powder, 50 gp + 10 sulfur per explosive (110 sulfur, 110 seconds), 25 explosves for 1 c4 (2750 sulfur, around 46 minutes + sulfur gathering time which vary from bioma and player skill factors, estimate it around 1.5 hours per C4 but usually people harvest sulfur before starting to craft c4.) = 350 damage AoE (you can destroy up to 4 square pieces of the same surface, or up to 6 triangular pieces)
25 spears = 300 wood each and 2 minutes crafting (12 hits with hatchet, a bit less than 12 seconds)*25 = 7500 wood (around 55 minutes) = 500 damage to a single stone wall.
20 spears for a metal sheet wall (44 minutes), 1.5 hatchet for a wooden wall (less than 2 minutes), 1 arrow for the first tier.
Lowering the C4 crafting time makes a huge difference, because those who first find the C4 blueprint (because we all know that BP will be wiped again one day) would be able to totally boom the map away while the unlucky enemies are still farming wood.
[QUOTE=ScypherWins;47473688]the resource requirement are not superfine. The ratios dont make sense the sulfur requirement is ridiculous! your example is irrelevant your looking at it from your play style, im looking at this from a gameplay in general and comparison to rust legacy.
if people give up because they've been raided once then boohoo this game isnt for you, but, making weapons more available to the masses to at least be able to stand up to roving clan bands so that everyone gets a taste of PvP then surely thats a winner?[/QUOTE]
Dont you think that they encourage team play with this? You sound like you want everyone running with ak and 5 c4s on him.
C4 was not hard to make in Legacy, I could churn out 5-10 C4 per day (playing a few hours per day).
in New Rust it seems to be exponentially harder to make C4. BUT I like the fact that my base won't be blown up every other day!
I like that I can get to Armored tier faster then I can get C4. Do I want C4? hell ya! but not to easy!
I would prefer to see:
1. Improved ways to keep clans from walling of rad towns
2. a few more defenses - Bring back Spike walls maybe or a few more trap styles?
[QUOTE=txiah;47473969]C4 was not hard to make in Legacy, I could churn out 5-10 C4 per day (playing a few hours per day).
in New Rust it seems to be exponentially harder to make C4. BUT I like the fact that my base won't be blown up every other day!
I like that I can get to Armored tier faster then I can get C4. Do I want C4? hell ya! but not to easy!
I would prefer to see:
1. Improved ways to keep clans from walling of rad towns
2. a few more defenses - Bring back Spike walls maybe or a few more trap styles?[/QUOTE]
If you check rustafied.com you will see that they are working on barricades, sandbags, spikes etc..
I have over 400 hours on Rust and I never saw clan walling a rad town.
[QUOTE=P.Mike;47473956]Dont you think that they encourage team play with this? You sound like you want everyone running with ak and 5 c4s on him.[/QUOTE]
i never said team play i said PvP and what would be the problem in people running about with guns? it gives people a fighting chance to defend themselves does it not? and sure why not 5 C4, 5 c4 would do what? blow through 1 armoured wall and 1 stone wall? hardly OP is it.
This gives people who dont work in massive groups a chance to at least shoot back and a chance at hitting back at clans
[editline]7th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=P.Mike;47473989]If you check rustafied.com you will see that they are working on barricades, sandbags, spikes etc..
I have over 400 hours on Rust and I never saw clan walling a rad town.[/QUOTE]
i have nearly 1000 hours approximately between legacy and experimental, and right now on london 1 there is a rad town in the desert that is completely walled off. I would suggest that just because YOU havent seen it doesnt mean it hasnt and doesnt happen. you are more than welcome to log in and look
[editline]7th April 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Cst;47473925]I insisit on the superfine part of the sentence:
10 sulfur per 5 gun powder, 50 gp + 10 sulfur per explosive (110 sulfur, 110 seconds), 25 explosves for 1 c4 (2750 sulfur, around 46 minutes + sulfur gathering time which vary from bioma and player skill factors, estimate it around 1.5 hours per C4 but usually people harvest sulfur before starting to craft c4.) = 350 damage AoE (you can destroy up to 4 square pieces of the same surface, or up to 6 triangular pieces)
25 spears = 300 wood each and 2 minutes crafting (12 hits with hatchet, a bit less than 12 seconds)*25 = 7500 wood (around 55 minutes) = 500 damage to a single stone wall.
20 spears for a metal sheet wall (44 minutes), 1.5 hatchet for a wooden wall (less than 2 minutes), 1 arrow for the first tier.
Lowering the C4 crafting time makes a huge difference, because those who first find the C4 blueprint (because we all know that BP will be wiped again one day) would be able to totally boom the map away while the unlucky enemies are still farming wood.[/QUOTE]
you may insist all you like it doesnt mean i agree or that its correct. Now your calculations doesnt take into account processing time, the time it takes to process the sulfur ore, in the furnaces, the time it takes to harvest the wood to burn the sulfur, all of that is part of the process to produce a C4.
that last line is bullshit, because everyone i would imagine would be out farming barrels and rad towns for blueprints, additionally the map is quite big so there are ample places to build a base, ample places to farm barrels for blueprints so no, just because someone has found the blueprints first still means he has to build himself a base and get established to be able to produce the C4, the person who already has established himself in a base is then free to suicide barrels until he has the blueprint so that last point is complete shite.
the rest of your points about spears for stone walls etc i will test myself
[QUOTE=ScypherWins;47474041]i never said team play i said PvP and what would be the problem in people running about with guns? it gives people a fighting chance to defend themselves does it not? and sure why not 5 C4, 5 c4 would do what? blow through 1 armoured wall and 1 stone wall? hardly OP is it.
This gives people who dont work in massive groups a chance to at least shoot back and a chance at hitting back at clans
[editline]7th April 2015[/editline]
i have nearly 1000 hours approximately between legacy and experimental, and right now on london 1 there is a rad town in the desert that is completely walled off. I would suggest that just because YOU havent seen it doesnt mean it hasnt and doesnt happen. you are more than welcome to log in and look
[editline]7th April 2015[/editline]
you may insist all you like it doesnt mean i agree or that its correct. Now your calculations doesnt take into account processing time, the time it takes to process the sulfur ore, in the furnaces, the time it takes to harvest the wood to burn the sulfur, all of that is part of the process to produce a C4.
that last line is bullshit, because everyone i would imagine would be out farming barrels and rad towns for blueprints, additionally the map is quite big so there are ample places to build a base, ample places to farm barrels for blueprints so no, just because someone has found the blueprints first still means he has to build himself a base and get established to be able to produce the C4, the person who already has established himself in a base is then free to suicide barrels until he has the blueprint so that last point is complete shite.
the rest of your points about spears for stone walls etc i will test myself[/QUOTE]
we played 10 days with not a single gun or rifle bp. only with our bow skills we were able to steal rifles from a lot of people; we learned that 70% of people on our server (facepunch milan) ain't that good at shooting. Then we've found revolver bp, and it was gg. The we found Assault Rifle and Bolt bp, but we didn't have craft not even one.
we had our first C4 bp after a week thanks to a guy we killed so many times that became our friend.
with that first bp we raided almost every house we saw.
if you like to play alone, it means you like the struggle to survive.
about walled rads:
we usually don't wall rads, we find walled rads, make a hole, take possess of one or two cupboards, make a door way, use the rad, profit. (the whole things with no use of c4 since nobody wall rads with armoured, usually just stones)
i agree that the bow is a nasty piece of work, but that isnt going to kill a dude sitting in his rad town tower with a bolt, or 3 people running at you with AK's and thomson's at least make the waterpipe shotgun more available to give people a fighting chance.
Additionally your point is about C4 BP from a dude you killed many times, you havent mentioned how many times you farmed barrels for BP's i would hazard a guess you would have acquired it quicker had you farmed barrels.
anyway point is those things need to be balanced as currently its a rush to wall off rad zones and profit
[QUOTE=ScypherWins;47474507]i agree that the bow is a nasty piece of work, but that isnt going to kill a dude sitting in his rad town tower with a bolt, or 3 people running at you with AK's and thomson's at least make the waterpipe shotgun more available to give people a fighting chance.
Additionally your point is about C4 BP from a dude you killed many times, you havent mentioned how many times you farmed barrels for BP's i would hazard a guess you would have acquired it quicker had you farmed barrels.
anyway point is those things need to be balanced as currently its a rush to wall off rad zones and profit[/QUOTE]
You're exaggerating on the rad walling. Its not denying people anything they can't also find in barrels in the world. The only real advantage it gives is a nice centralized loot location to farm. You could wall off a giant area heavy with barrel spawns and accomplish the same thing.
Plus its pretty challenging To get that wall up, upgrade it, and maintain it from the various attempts to get past it. I've done the rad wall with my small group of friends and we practically had to be online 24/7 just to keep it secure. It was only fun in the sense that we were a giant beacon asking to be attacked.
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