I mean, let's face it... Resource Distribution is buggy as a rainforest, slow as a 56k modem, completely unbalanced (and not just the Heavy Water thing), and utterly confusing. Even so, many find the concept to be quite compelling.
So, what I ask is this: Would it be a worthwhile effort for someone to make a competitor? Would anyone want to help a new project grow, or would everyone just stick to RD?
(NOTE: This isn't a request thread. Incidentally, I'm not officially saying I'm starting such a project.)
I'd like to see the old SB1, LS1 and RD1 brought back. I used to play spacebuild because it was very simple - there were only like three resources, it didn't take much to create a resource station or a viable ship. Sb2 and the other upgrades we're kind of nice, but the new sb3 is just too bloated now. ~20 resource types, ~50 container types.. it just doesn't have the old charm anymore.
I can give you a helpful hand if you are to start this project.
I wouldn't mind some kind of RD that worked like Easy Engine, in that you just spawned ents from the ents menu and tapped the right ones together (solar panel to hub, hub to battery) in order to link them up. Having to constantly switch toolmodes can get a bit annoying.
[QUOTE=Lexic;16770274]I wouldn't mind some kind of RD that worked like Easy Engine, in that you just spawned ents from the ents menu and tapped the right ones together (solar panel to hub, hub to battery) in order to link them up. Having to constantly switch toolmodes can get a bit annoying.[/QUOTE]
It's easy to get used to the toolgun. It's also easier to control where the beam comes from.
I want a more linear version of RD, where you can't have gigantic networks. You'd have to choose 1 entity to send or retrieve from etc. That'd not make a huge difference.
I agree, the things in RD2 could get damned gnarly. I think the LD3 centralized "hub" approach is a much better idea.
Also, I think I'd prefer Toolgun to EasyEngine-style touching. It'd just be too easy to touch the wrong thing, I think... Granted, if there was only 1 STool for the whole thing, I'd be happiest.
Actually I liked how 'complicated' LS3 is compared to LS1, it gives you more options.
[QUOTE=Overv;16771315]Actually I liked how 'complicated' LS3 is compared to LS1, it gives you more options.[/QUOTE]
I completely agree. What's the point playing SB3 when all you want is to build a constraption and watch it float around in the middle of nowhere? There got to be something more to it, and that something is LS3.
[QUOTE=ColtoM;16772330]I completely agree. What's the point playing SB3 when all you want is to build a constraption and watch it float around in the middle of nowhere? There got to be something more to it, and that something is LS3.[/QUOTE]
Depends what you are playing for. There's nothing wrong with not wanting the overwhleming complexity (and frankly, at times, stupidity) of LS3, yet still wanting a minor degree of resource gathering/management/transport.
Yes, I think it would be nice to have a resources system alternative, if it keeps to KISS (keep it simple stupid) principles.
You're right. If someone was making an alternative, its best bet would be to be simple, and let RD3/LS3 be the complex one.
Here's an idea I had, tell me what you guys think. What if the addon had "Technology", an implement which lets you only build smaller, simpler things (simple cars and such) when you start out. To unlock more powerful devices, bigger storage, etc., you have to spend resources in "labs". Ideally, this would help new players by not overwhelming them with unknown choices, and stop people from jumping into a server and immediately building a lag-o-riffic "UberMegaMothership".
Perhaps "Technology" would be on a kind of unlockable tier system, like the StarCraft or WarCraft games, or perhaps it would be an actual resource that was generated by labs and consumed when spawning advanced devices.
Just a random thought.
I've been thinking of writing up my own system to compete with RD (see: [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=762861]Electromod[/url].) I know I could make it much more optimized than, say RD1, while keeping the simplicity, but I'm not sure exactly how I'd lay it out and I'm not sure I want to dedicate that much time to it.
I think competition in that area could be a very good thing for Spacebuild.
If you think you have a good handle on the coding and have come up with some innovative solutions for the numerous challenges and problems the RD system needs to have solved, proceed by all means.
Incidentally, I can request my team to make our snapping system coder available to you if you can show us some progress on the mod to save you from having to figure out how to approach that problem. That would allow you to easily start defining how to 'link' those systems together if you're thinking of approaching the problem in the same fashion we decided to approach modular external ship components.
The most difficult and important thing to solve is how to keep Resource Distribution detailed enough that it's not a 'gimmick' nor trivial but is thought enough out that anyone can figure out the basics of how to use it with experimentation within ten to thirty seconds with no 'tutorial' ongoing; and while all that is being solved, to figure out how to approach complicated riggings while keeping things simple, integrated, and plausible. The last important point to consider is that it has to work without people making new maps for it.
If you're awesome enough to allow server ops to decide the 'level of realism/complexity' for RD networks in real time (i.e. nothing has to be set in the gamemode) then that would also solve the long-standing frustration of people being forced to work with either very complex or very simple networks and all will be appeased as they all can do what they _want_ to do but were never able to do due to it being forced.
If you're going to do a total overhaul, you'll definitely need to know at least this last point in full detail before I would recommend anyone start on making a better RD.
Tell me, Lua coders, if you were going to add some new devices to this hypothetical addon, would you think the following format is acceptable (Generate, Burn, and Store would all be optional, and could take any amount of any number of any type of resources)?
[lua]
ENT.RDADevice = { ["Generate"] = { ["Energy"]=100 },
["Burn"] = { ["Hydrogen"]=20, ["Water"]=10 },
["Store"] = { ["Energy"]=1000 }
}
[/lua]
I hope you know that most of what you are talking about (all the resource devices) are actually life support.
They use RD, but the only thing RD does is allow the networks to be formed, the resources to be generated, stored, .... and data synced to the client. (I've been working on a new system to transmit data to the clients, but Garry has to fix something on dedicated servers before I can release it).
If you really want to simplify it might be better to just create an alternative to Life Support instead of Resource Distribution. Since Life Support is what most of you seem to complain about (the complexity).
I know. LS is the main ugly part, but I, for one, don't like how RD works, either. RD2's system tended to encourage to laggy, convoluted messes, and RD3, while better in my eyes, is still overly complicated. I'm not saying I don't respect the work you and yours have done (and I do, it was groundbreaking and fun), but I think it could be done better. Plus, RD3/LS3/SB3 development is moving too slow for me ;p
Again, I don't mean to be rude or disrespectful towards RD/LS/SB or their developers. You're an inspiration.
Sorry for the double-post, but it's been over 24 hours. Anyway, I'd like to know: Who might be making addons on top of this hypothetical addon? I've got... Something... That might interest you, which I'd like some feedback about.
I'm curious as what happened to Tad's RDx and LPine's uRD that they decided to present as "competitors" to RD3.
There's already a project like this?? I didn't even know! But based on your post, I suppose they've died before release?
Throwing out my 0.02 ISK here...(spacebuild, space game? COME ON!)
I am on the RD team I guess you could say. I haven't contributed much, however I still help SnakeSVx through his sometimes sensless ramblings. We're in the process of converting it to something a bit "Different", I'd elaborate, however I'm not sure if Snake would like me to disclose such info.
If you think you can handle the coding behind it, that's awesome. Please keep in mind, that for a New RD system, it'd have to work with spacebuild, or you'd have to write your own to use your custom one. SB was specifically designed for RD and such. Thus, you'd either need to create a new Spacebuild-type gamemode entirely.
[QUOTE=Taehl;16779778]You're right. If someone was making an alternative, its best bet would be to be simple, and let RD3/LS3 be the complex one.
Here's an idea I had, tell me what you guys think. What if the addon had "Technology", an implement which lets you only build smaller, simpler things (simple cars and such) when you start out. To unlock more powerful devices, bigger storage, etc., you have to spend resources in "labs". Ideally, this would help new players by not overwhelming them with unknown choices, and stop people from jumping into a server and immediately building a lag-o-riffic "UberMegaMothership".
Perhaps "Technology" would be on a kind of unlockable tier system, like the StarCraft or WarCraft games, or perhaps it would be an actual resource that was generated by labs and consumed when spawning advanced devices.
Just a random thought.[/QUOTE]
Not a big fan of this idea. Some people don't spend much time on servers. about 1 hour is the average I think for most. All the people who stay on for a few hours at at time who have nothing better to do, such as myself :v:, would possibly get benefits.
However my reasoning is this: I join a SB server, and spawn a lab right next to all the 20 others. I have to sit and wait...and wait...and wait, until I can build something I want...or settle for second best, and build something that I don't want, or waste time on a planet doing nothing. Plus you'd have to worry about all the people spamming labs to get skills / research points and whatnot.
Another issue. if all the players are on the server with 5 labs each, and are flying Battleships, that it'll take me 30 minutes to get a RD system that can support a ship that size, then I sit there watching from the sidelines, or, I fly up in a fighter or something and get insta-owned.
[editline]04:04AM[/editline]
[QUOTE=Levybreak;16845858]I'm curious as what happened to Tad's RDx and LPine's uRD that they decided to present as "competitors" to RD3.[/QUOTE]
Knowing LPine, it won't get finished, will break someone else's code, or be bugged to hell. Not sure about RDx though.
[QUOTE=kraizer793;16848713]Throwing out my 0.02 ISK here...[/QUOTE]
Argrghh! I wish that game would die so I could stop loving it so I could stop hating it.
[QUOTE=kraizer793;16848713]Please keep in mind, that for a New RD system, it'd have to work with spacebuild, or you'd have to write your own to use your custom one. SB was specifically designed for RD and such. Thus, you'd either need to create a new Spacebuild-type gamemode entirely.[/QUOTE]
It's true. Any RD/LS without a SB would lose some of the charm. And since maps must be specially built for SB, and are comparatively rare, the competing addon would have to be compatible to stand a chance, or else harm itself and RD/LS/SB both from competing for mappers.
[QUOTE=kraizer793;16848713]However my reasoning is this: I join a SB server, and spawn a lab right next to all the 20 others. I have to sit and wait...and wait...and wait, until I can build something I want...or settle for second best, and build something that I don't want, or waste time on a planet doing nothing. Plus you'd have to worry about all the people spamming labs to get skills / research points and whatnot.[/QUOTE]
I suppose you have a point. I hadn't thought of it from that angle (the limited-time-playing one). Still, anyone getting to build anything at any given time makes me wonder why anyone would ever bother with less than the "optimal" resource system build? I, personally, would like something that would encourage using the less powerful devices. I suppose the "Technology" idea wouldn't cut it. Hm....
Aright, what about this: Every device has a "value" of some sort (can't think of what to name it), with more powerful devices being "worth" more. Every player has a limited "value" total for all devices they spawn. The UberMegaBattleship would, ideally, take more "value" than any player has, therefore forcing a cooperative building effort, or at least some corners to be cut (read: weaknesses for others to exploit). At the same time, anybody can whip up a little solar-powered car with little impact on their "value". Lastly, the admins would have a Cvar to set how much "value" players have, emphasizing or de-emphasizing this aspect to taste.
Would that work better? I look forward to seeing what you think, since you had such great foresight with my last idea.
I loved playing Space Build back when you just put a few entities on a ship and you could fly around. When SB2 came out I tried it and it started getting so laggy and complex I couldn't stand it. SB3 was even more complex, though I do like the central hub idea.
[QUOTE=Taehl;16849433]Argrghh! I wish that game would die so I could stop loving it so I could stop hating it.
It's true. Any RD/LS without a SB would lose some of the charm. And since maps must be specially built for SB, and are comparatively rare, the competing addon would have to be compatible to stand a chance, or else harm itself and RD/LS/SB both from competing for mappers.
I suppose you have a point. I hadn't thought of it from that angle (the limited-time-playing one). Still, anyone getting to build anything at any given time makes me wonder why anyone would ever bother with less than the "optimal" resource system build? I, personally, would like something that would encourage using the less powerful devices. I suppose the "Technology" idea wouldn't cut it. Hm....
Aright, what about this: Every device has a "value" of some sort (can't think of what to name it), with more powerful devices being "worth" more. Every player has a limited "value" total for all devices they spawn. The UberMegaBattleship would, ideally, take more "value" than any player has, therefore forcing a cooperative building effort, or at least some corners to be cut (read: weaknesses for others to exploit). At the same time, anybody can whip up a little solar-powered car with little impact on their "value". Lastly, the admins would have a Cvar to set how much "value" players have, emphasizing or de-emphasizing this aspect to taste.
Would that work better? I look forward to seeing what you think, since you had such great foresight with my last idea.[/QUOTE]
That would work [i]better[/i], yes. However I still don't like the idea all that much. Say me and a friend decide to get on a server, and see who's Megabattleship can beat the other person's. We hop on, and low and behold, the "value" is super low, and we can't paste our battleships. with no admin in sight,we go find another server.
Plus, In my opinion, it'd add more complexity to the system than is needed. YOu're aiming for simplicity, having the players try and "budget" their "value" points would just move the complexity to another aspect of gameplay, instead of removing it completely.
However the convar is better than the first suggestion.
I havn't been online with Gmod in a long, long time. Are admin-less servers a problem? Hm.
Well, what about this variation of the "value" idea: What if the top-of-the-line devices were "special" and a player could only spawn 1 or 2 of them? This might still be enough to encourage teamwork and prevent everyone from only using the very best devices, and it also opens up a nice kind of "specialization" emergent gameplay mechanic (that is, what part of their creation gets the "special" part?). Again, this would be controllable by a Cvar.
[QUOTE=Levybreak;16845858]I'm curious as what happened to Tad's RDx and LPine's uRD that they decided to present as "competitors" to RD3.[/QUOTE]
Tad is still working on his RD. But isn't really a competitor.
I made RD3 awaiting the release of TAD's new version, this is because he doesn't have much time to work on his version, and RD2 was having issues...
LPine has stopped working on his as far as I heard. But he could always start working on it again I guess.
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