4x Gmod Initiative

[|Arblarg|]

[B]This is a project that is an attempt to revitalize the sandbox gamemode and allow for greater possibilities in all other gamemodes.[/B]

[video=youtube;Ite3aKZxjjQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ite3aKZxjjQ[/video]

[B]More progress[/B]
[video=youtube;ffhR8WXCNKs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ffhR8WXCNKs[/video]

[B]Coming off of an idea from the 'Post your current WIP' thread from screenshots is where this started.[/B]
The idea to make maps bigger...or at least proportionally so. Due to sources many arbitrary limits, it simply is not possible to make a map past 31k size on X/Y without sacrificing stability of the engine. However, rather than make the maps bigger, we can make the players smaller. The price of doing this however is having to completely remake models at 1/4th scale, as well as scale back physics to 1/4. Mappers will have to also scale back texture sizes and brushes to accommodate the new 'smaller' players. However, this brings so much potential to not only sandbox, but also RP and other game modes that prefer larger maps.

[U]There are some drawbacks, however.[/U]

[B]Carrying through with this project requires a lot of dedication and a lot of support from content makers alike[/B].
Though myself and a friend already have a sample script and a sample map done, we are just in the beginning stages of what this project hopes to succeed. We still need models to be scaled down, or new gmod compatible lua functions to scale things appropriately in real time as well as accommodate for the fact the player is smaller (different player camera, different aim positions, etc). Mappers will also have to create their maps at a 1/4 scale to make things appear 'normal'. Coders of addons would be suggested to make things scale-able to fit properly.

[B]What we will gain from this -[/B]
-overall smaller download sizes
-seemingly larger maps, by proportion
-A new take on mapping for gmod
-A new outlook for game modes that desire large maps

[B]What is already done -[/B]
-A sample map
-A working script, which 'overlays' onto any gamemode

[B]What is needed -[/B]
-More coders, specifically for new glua functions
-Support from the mapping community
-Resized models , specifically their collision boxes (or a way to do in real time via code)
-Dedication

[B]If anyone would like to take part or is able to contribute, please post and offer up what you can. Together we can make gmod better.[/B]

[[POR]Shoterxx]

Won't models get too low quality with the downsize?
Or are you just plain downsizing them, with the same polygon number?

[Whitewater]

Replying by request:

My current script *attempts* to scale down everything in GMod by 1/4, by hooking every function I could find that deals with position. There are obvious and massive problems with that approach, but I'm able to avoid most of them in Sandbox by scaling placement position, yet tools are broken due to that same scaling. There's no one true solution and it'd be a lot of hard work and effort that I didn't want to/haven't had time to put in.

It does the traditional setting of player hulls, run speed, and eye heights to accomplish what he showed in the video.

[Metallics]

I've worked on a similar project before, the dogfight arcade gamemode from ages ago scaled everything to 1/16th. It was a royal pain to make maps for because the minimum unit size in hammer is 1 so you lose a lot of detail. There is also a precision limit to texture scales, lightmaps can look really bizzare as there's a lower limit on them too... If you want a flat grass remake it's ok, but anything with any detail is a nightmare.

[Acecool]

I've been working on a scaling system for players, models, vehicles etc. You don't have to re-make the models, but the only thing I can't figure out is updating vehicle physics boxes. If I edit the mesh, the server/client crashes.

GTA uses tiny models and scales them to what they need, at no real loss of quality.

[|Arblarg|]

[QUOTE=Acecool;41414674]I've been working on a scaling system for players, models, vehicles etc. You don't have to re-make the models, but the only thing I can't figure out is updating vehicle physics boxes. If I edit the mesh, the server/client crashes.
[/quote]
That is indeed the problem. If the models do not get re-made, there has to be something in the code to be able to scale the collision box properly with the model.

[QUOTE=Acecool;41414674]
GTA uses tiny models and scales them to what they need, at no real loss of quality.[/QUOTE]

The thing about mapping at smaller scale is that the biggest thing you lose is shadow and light quality. Well made textures still look nice at smaller scale. Scaling up is what makes things ugly. Doing this though would allow for proportionally 4x larger maps.

[QUOTE=metallics;41414627]I've worked on a similar project before, the dogfight arcade gamemode from ages ago scaled everything to 1/16th. It was a royal pain to make maps for because the minimum unit size in hammer is 1 so you lose a lot of detail. There is also a precision limit to texture scales, lightmaps can look really bizzare as there's a lower limit on them too... If you want a flat grass remake it's ok, but anything with any detail is a nightmare.[/QUOTE]
This is at 1/4 scale, which is still quite possible to map for without a massive loss in quality or detail.

[Whitewater]

[QUOTE=metallics;41414627]I've worked on a similar project before, the dogfight arcade gamemode from ages ago scaled everything to 1/16th. It was a royal pain to make maps for because the minimum unit size in hammer is 1 so you lose a lot of detail. There is also a precision limit to texture scales, lightmaps can look really bizzare as there's a lower limit on them too... If you want a flat grass remake it's ok, but anything with any detail is a nightmare.[/QUOTE]

Double precision has half of it's... precision in [0, 1), so there shouldn't be any precision problems with models at least, and if one needs super high (sub-1-unit) detail, then what one is making should probably be a model anyway.

[Sestze]

I'm willing to try doing stuff with this/for this. At the very least it'll lead to people making comically tiny contraptions

[Metallics]

Whilst I'm not sure I totally agree (It's the equivalent of making everything in normal scale gameplay on the smallest grid size of 4 in your case, which can still look odd for things like openings in walls and thickness of surfaces, I was just talking in my experience of mapping on a smaller scale, also I know float precision, but hammer truncates texture scales to 2 or 3 dp I fail to remember exactly, so if you want to be more precise you have to manually edit the vmf and not open it after that with hammer.

[Whitewater]

Scaled props.

Breakables don't break, otherwise everything works AFAIK.

EDIT: Prediction is bad (walking on top of props and such).

[KKlouzal]

This is an amazing idea, my current map is as big as the source engine can handle and its just not big enough, double the current size would be acceptable, 4x the current size would be more than plenty.

I fail to see the issue with designing maps at these smaller scales other than bullets pass through walls that are are smaller than a certain amount of units, but things like this are negligible.

shadows and lighting on the other hand I could see them acting weird, if its just the quality of a shadow/lighting that as well is negligible but if its things like shadows going through brushes/light traveling through brushes (which I don't thing will happen) this is also negligible.

The #1 issue is scaling the collision boxes which is something I don't believe is possible without creating new models completely. Trying to re-create every model is just not feasible. creating a "mini-model pack" for servers that use this is definitely feasible.

#2 compile times for these maps would go through the roof and they better have plenty of hint/skip/area portals or else FPS is going to drop through the floor.

Garry, the community desperately needs some functions to scale collision models. If it were easy/possible I'm sure they would already be available. Hopefully it is possible just not easy.

Overall, if this can be accomplished it would greatly increase the quality of gameplay for gamemodes that need/want larger maps.

[Metallics]

[QUOTE=kklouzal23;41415595]This is an amazing idea, my current map is as big as the source engine can handle and its just not big enough, double the current size would be acceptable, 4x the current size would be more than plenty.

I fail to see the issue with designing maps at these smaller scales other than bullets pass through walls that are are smaller than a certain amount of units, but things like this are negligible.

shadows and lighting on the other hand I could see them acting weird, if its just the quality of a shadow/lighting that as well is negligible but if its things like shadows going through brushes/light traveling through brushes (which I don't thing will happen) this is also negligible.

The #1 issue is scaling the collision boxes which is something I don't believe is possible without creating new models completely.

#2 compile times for these maps would go through the roof.

Garry, the community desperately needs some functions to scale collision models. If it were easy/possible I'm sure they would already be available. Hopefully it is possible just not easy.

Overall, if this can be accomplished it would greatly increase the quality of gameplay for gamemodes that need/want larger maps.[/QUOTE]

Compile tims shouldnt be an issue, you arnet physically making the map any bigger, lightmaps have a lower limit of 1 unit between light sampling spots or luxels, so the edges of shadows could potentially look weird as you're effectively again limiting the luxel distance to 4 units on a regularly scaled map. This can do all kinds of bizzare things potentially, including lighting bleeding through walls and displacements (to an amount that would have otherwise been unnoticable at the larger scale and shadows not being so accurate.

[Sestze]

I'm currently running the bare-bones setup that Arblarg has for the 1/4 scale thing on a GGG server.

GGG - Oliver Twist's Personal Nightmare [1/4]
IP: 198.27.82.68:27028

Come take a look see, maybe we can figure some crap out.

[Ralphie624]

This means revolution (Probably).

[Whitewater]

Also, it doesn't have to be 1/4. If that's too small, it's a quick setting change for 1/2, 3/7, 5/8, 6/1, etc.

[EvacX]

[QUOTE=Whitewater;41416554]Also, it doesn't have to be 1/4. If that's too small, it's a quick setting change for 1/2, 3/7, 5/8, [B]6/1[/B], etc.[/QUOTE]

Yeah let's make maps appear 6 times smaller... That'll solve all our problems! :v:

[Whitewater]

[QUOTE=EvacX;41416631]Yeah let's make maps appear 6 times smaller... That'll solve all our problems! :v:[/QUOTE]

Silly though it may be, the option is there :3

EDIT:

[url]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/313549/physicscaling.lua[/url]

Dupes *will* break. You can basically just kind of spawn things and then admire how small they are. You can put things inside other things if you're into that, too.

EDIT 2:

You can also make tiny forts, which are fun. Added protection against really small things, since Havok *will* choke and die when vertices are too close to one another.

EDIT 3:

Don't complain about gravity.

Gravity, as a force, is scaled quadratically based on distance. I already had to take the square root of scaling for the jump power, but since you're smaller you're going to be that much closer to the ground, and therefore pulled in that much faster.

EDIT 4:

Drop it in /lua/autorun

EDIT 5 (Hours later):

Also that link is basically always going to be the most updated version that I've given to anybody else, so you can redownload it to see what's changed if you want.

[Holt]

You win my respect for the Evil Genius music alone.

[karbine]

i may start mapping again for shit like this

[gamerpaddy]

BlackPhoenix tried the same few years ago, with few commands... around 40 lines of code
it worked, but no models was scaled correctly..
gmod 10 wasnt optimized for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of the normal size, it should be possible in 13 or later.

[Archemyde]

[QUOTE=|Arblarg|;41414431][B]This is a project that is an attempt to revitalize the sandbox gamemode and allow for greater possibilities in all other gamemodes.[/B]

[video=youtube;Ite3aKZxjjQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ite3aKZxjjQ[/video]

[B]Coming off of an idea from the 'Post your current WIP' thread from screenshots is where this started.[/B]
The idea to make maps bigger...or at least proportionally so. Due to sources many arbitrary limits, it simply is not possible to make a map past 31k size on X/Y without sacrificing stability of the engine. However, rather than make the maps bigger, we can make the players smaller. The price of doing this however is having to completely remake models at 1/4th scale, as well as scale back physics to 1/4. Mappers will have to also scale back texture sizes and brushes to accommodate the new 'smaller' players. However, this brings so much potential to not only sandbox, but also RP and other game modes that prefer larger maps.

[U]There are some drawbacks, however.[/U]

[B]Carrying through with this project requires a lot of dedication and a lot of support from content makers alike[/B].
Though myself and a friend already have a sample script and a sample map done, we are just in the beginning stages of what this project hopes to succeed. We still need models to be scaled down, or new gmod compatible lua functions to scale things appropriately in real time as well as accommodate for the fact the player is smaller (different player camera, different aim positions, etc). Mappers will also have to create their maps at a 1/4 scale to make things appear 'normal'. Coders of addons would be suggested to make things scale-able to fit properly.

[B]What we will gain from this -[/B]
-overall smaller download sizes
-seemingly larger maps, by proportion
-A new take on mapping for gmod
-A new outlook for game modes that desire large maps

[B]What is already done -[/B]
-A sample map
-A working script, which 'overlays' onto any gamemode

[B]What is needed -[/B]
-More coders, specifically for new glua functions
-Support from the mapping community
-Resized models , specifically their collision boxes (or a way to do in real time via code)
-Dedication

[B]If anyone would like to take part or is able to contribute, please post and offer up what you can. Together we can make gmod better.[/B][/QUOTE]

if you can successfully scale players and make maps seemingly larger in a fluid way, i swear to god, i'll love you forever.
Map limits in source drive me bat-shit-fucking-insane.

Edit: I'll be porting over my AirWar project to use this system as soon as possible.

[Whitewater]

[QUOTE=gamerpaddy;41416935]BlackPhoenix tried the same few years ago, with few commands... around 40 lines of code
it worked, but no models was scaled correctly..
gmod 10 wasnt optimized for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of the normal size, it should be possible in 13 or later.[/QUOTE]

Check my script, it scales models visually and physically now.

EDIT:

No, it doesn't make boxes. It scales the physics model. If you spawn a bathtub you can put things inside it.

EDIT 2:

Does anybody know how to move the near Z plane closer? I tried to modify it in CalcView but it appears that the value is clamped.

EDIT 3:

People keep crashing the server by spawning small things. I kindly ask you avoid doing that until we implement protection against that.

[Anonyderp]

while you guys are at it, can we find some kind of non-shitty fix for players being unable to walk on props? Gravity Hull Designator sometimes just doesn't cut it, especially with how it crashes if a smaller contraption enters the larger contraptions' interior.

[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]

maybe we could have a variant of gravity hull that ONLY accounts for players
so you could walk around in the ship while it flies and store shuttles in it and the shuttles don't deconstruct the server upon exiting or entering the localised physics area

[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE]Does anybody know how to move the near Z plane closer? I tried to modify it in CalcView but it appears that the value is clamped.[/QUOTE]

CapsAdmin's CTP addon has a NearZ controller, why not look into the code and find out how he does it?

( it's not clamped at all -- I've fucked up Gmod many times by setting NearZ to negative values for shits and giggles )

[Acecool]

I tried that script above, well the part about waiting before resizing, on my vehicle script; and it gave me an error about please insert disk into DR3 on SRCDS; crashed.. Happens reliably lol.

[CapsAdmin]

Being anything below 0.1 in scale becomes problematic. Building at this scale is not really a good either. Scaling yourself 0.5 might work so you'll get twice the size.

[video=youtube;RKtRYk3fG98]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKtRYk3fG98[/video]

This was made in gmod 10 or 11 though. I used loads of hacky methods to get to get 10000 times smaller.

[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(2).jpg[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(3).jpg[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(4).jpg[/img]
[img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(5).jpg[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(6).jpg[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(7).jpg[/img][img]https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/244444/scaled%20(8).jpg[/img]

[B]The proper way is to have cells. When you reach the end of the end of a cell you get teleported to a new one. You just have to make it seamless.[/B]

[Whitewater]

[QUOTE=Acecool;41418412]I tried that script above, well the part about waiting before resizing, on my vehicle script; and it gave me an error about please insert disk into DR3 on SRCDS; crashed.. Happens reliably lol.[/QUOTE]

Waiting before resizing?

Do you mean where I hook :Spawn because it's a really bad idea, or the part where it runs on Tick to update all the entities I filter?

[editline]12th July 2013[/editline]

[QUOTE=CapsAdmin;41418771]Being anything below 0.1 in scale becomes problematic.[/QUOTE]

Yes. That is why we are aiming for 1/4.

EDIT: Also, cells are difficult to manage with large, heavily constrained contraptions.

[|Arblarg|]

[QUOTE=gamerpaddy;41416935]BlackPhoenix tried the same few years ago, with few commands... around 40 lines of code
it worked, but no models was scaled correctly..
gmod 10 wasnt optimized for 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 or 1/16 of the normal size, it should be possible in 13 or later.[/QUOTE]
We're going to make it happen.

[QUOTE=Amplar;41416764]i may start mapping again for shit like this[/QUOTE]
Hope to see you at the party.

[QUOTE=Tomthetechy;41416709]You win my respect for the Evil Genius music alone.[/QUOTE]
Thanks.

[QUOTE=metallics;41415655]Compile tims shouldnt be an issue, you arnet physically making the map any bigger, lightmaps have a lower limit of 1 unit between light sampling spots or luxels, so the edges of shadows could potentially look weird as you're effectively again limiting the luxel distance to 4 units on a regularly scaled map. This can do all kinds of bizzare things potentially, including lighting bleeding through walls and displacements (to an amount that would have otherwise been unnoticable at the larger scale and shadows not being so accurate.[/QUOTE]
I'm going to work on a simple construct tomorrow. The thing is even at .25 scale, you can still achieve proper detailing. Honestly very few things should ever be under 8 units thick, at the .25 scale, that is 2 units, which is still acceptable. We'll see though.

[QUOTE=Archemyde;41417003]if you can successfully scale players and make maps seemingly larger in a fluid way, i swear to god, i'll love you forever.
Map limits in source drive me bat-shit-fucking-insane.

Edit: I'll be porting over my AirWar project to use this system as soon as possible.[/QUOTE]
The mapping is the easy part if you ask me. The biggest hurdle to jump right now is properly scaling models and the hulls / collision boxes properly. Also converting things to be used in maps, not just in game.

[Whitewater]

I've got work in progress for scaling literally every single vector in the game, so scripts would believe that you're actually out at unit 40,000 or whatever, but it seems like I would need to

A: Scale every vector that comes out of Source by the inverse of the current scale
B: Scale every vector that goes into Source by the current scale

So while there's some groundwork that's been done, wrapping everything fully would take a lot of time that I don't have right now for results that might not even fully work.

[Complicated]

Meanwhile Garry thinks the current mapsize is more than enough for most of us here :/

[Bubbus]

So how reliable is PhysicsFromMesh + does it work well in MP? I remember the old queryphys module didn't handle MP well but maybe that's changed since. Good luck on this one, if you can get all the scaling working reliably without a big performance hit we'll all love you long time.