Windows 8, .NET and game development - Developers

Metro will be a big part of Windows 8, considering ARM machines cannot run x86 or x64 applications. I've tried creating Metro applications with my beloved C#, and it seems easy enough, but games are a different story. In order to distribute your game easily on the Windows Store and to ARM computers, it has to work in Metro mode. XNA has been totally put aside from Microsoft for Metro, and it will not work. They are suggesting developers to use C++ with DirectX for Metro-based games. I tried downloading an example, but it's not really my cup of tea, there is a lot of boilerplate code and I strongly prefer C#'s syntax and programming constructs to C++. I've googled around and it seems that only MonoGame is available (and still not feature-complete) for Metro game development... anyone has any other idea? Or do you think it would be worth learning C++ and DirectX?

You can use DirectX in C#, so I'm guessing you'll just have to either try and use MonoGame and hope it gets ported to Metro, find a library that wraps DirectX into a nice API or use DirectX directly. Do you know if it's possible to use OpenGL in a metro app?

Why would they get rid of XNA for Metro? They would get a lot more community content with it.

[QUOTE=danharibo;36238969]You can use DirectX in C#, so I'm guessing you'll just have to either try and use MonoGame and hope it gets ported to Metro, find a library that wraps DirectX into a nice API or use DirectX directly. Do you know if it's possible to use OpenGL in a metro app?[/QUOTE] [url]http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winappswithcsharp/thread/a861db02-dce8-4f61-9969-b8a7a7cd55c7[/url] according to this, no :/

[QUOTE=Perl;36239157][url]http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/winappswithcsharp/thread/a861db02-dce8-4f61-9969-b8a7a7cd55c7[/url] according to this, no :/[/QUOTE] What a stupid move, Microsoft has really dropped the ball.

Windows 8 seems like it'd just turn out to be another vista with it's bad design choices and shitty support. Not to derail the thread, but it seems like most everyone'll be sticking with 7 for now...I sure as hell am.

XNA works on Win8. I'm developing an XNA game on Windows 8 right now.

[QUOTE=geel9;36240632]XNA works on Win8. I'm developing an XNA game on Windows 8 right now.[/QUOTE] [quote] Metro Metro Metro Metro Metro Metro [/quote] Like I said, Windows 8 is mess.

I would hold off starting a big project in XNA right now until Microsoft picks it back up for Win8. From the looks of it, they're either making a successor to XNA or dropping it altogether. The Metro store won't be too much of a problem with selling your game if they do drop it however(on PC). People are competent; they can find your product if it's out there well enough. ..And even then, after a couple of months someone will develop a XNA port that's compatible with Metro. So while I think XNA is done for, it won't be long before the community picks it up.

[QUOTE=danharibo;36240707]Like I said, Windows 8 is mess.[/QUOTE] Yeah but who gives a shit about metro though? I'm confused, is the issue that the OP wants to distribute his apps on the store and they only take metro apps? Is there a particular reason why he wants to stick to Metro? [quote]Metro will be a big part of Windows 8, considering ARM machines cannot run x86 or x64 applications.[/quote] People who have important software will come out with new versions for ARM, it's not the end of the world.

Would not count XNA out. They guys at: [URL]http://monogame.codeplex.com/[/URL] have been working on running XNA in the Metro UI.

[QUOTE=gparent;36242644]Yeah but who gives a shit about metro though? I'm confused, is the issue that the OP wants to distribute his apps on the store and they only take metro apps? Is there a particular reason why he wants to stick to Metro? [/QUOTE] I'd like to know that too. Also, I seem to be a bit confused about what metro actually is. Isn't it just a design they're using?

I'm quite frustrated by the fact that OpenGL won't be available in a Metro environment, but cursing against Microsoft won't solve a thing. Is there any way it can be wrapped or is it an hardware limitation? I would love to use SFML and C# to build Metro apps :/ [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=Darwin226;36244554]I'd like to know that too. Also, I seem to be a bit confused about what metro actually is. Isn't it just a design they're using?[/QUOTE] x86 and x64 apps won't be supported on ARM tablets or other ARM devices. Only Metro apps will be supported in ARM devices. Legacy apps will be available in the store but they will be selected by Microsoft itself and won't auto-install, it will work just like a link to the app's website. Metro apps will be greatly supported, easy to install and distribute, so it's natural that I'm interested in Metro development. Legacy development won't be influenced at all by the Metro environment, but honestly it would be easier to use the store to distribute apps and games.

[QUOTE=SupahVee;36244564]I'm quite frustrated by the fact that OpenGL won't be available in a Metro environment, but cursing against Microsoft won't solve a thing. Is there any way it can be wrapped or is it an hardware limitation? I would love to use SFML and C# to build Metro apps :/ [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] x86 and x64 apps won't be supported on ARM tablets or other ARM devices. Only Metro apps will be supported in ARM devices. Legacy apps will be available in the store but they will be selected by Microsoft itself and won't auto-install, it will work just like a link to the app's website. Metro apps will be greatly supported, easy to install and distribute, so it's natural that I'm interested in Metro development. Legacy development won't be influenced at all by the Metro environment, but honestly it would be easier to use the store to distribute apps and games.[/QUOTE] ARM devices? Those are smartphones and tablets, right? If so, why does it matter? Not many people use Windows Mobile anyways.

[QUOTE=Darwin226;36244597]ARM devices? Those are smartphones and tablets, right? If so, why does it matter? Not many people use Windows Mobile anyways.[/QUOTE] It's not Windows Mobile, it's Windows 8. There will be WinRT-only tablets that run the full version of Windows 8, but won't be able to run legacy apps because they have an ARM processor. Other tablets will not have ARM processors and will be able to run legacy apps, but they will be more expensive

I'm a little upset that it's Direct3D only. I guess my programs won't run on Metro.

[QUOTE=SupahVee;36244736]It's not Windows Mobile, it's Windows 8. There will be WinRT-only tablets that run the full version of Windows 8, but won't be able to run legacy apps because they have an ARM processor. Other tablets will not have ARM processors and will be able to run legacy apps, but they will be more expensive[/QUOTE] Why is it so important to get on the app store? Sure its a huge advantage but surely its easier to just setup a sales page on your own site and just make a game like you always have and compile it for ARM

Windows RT will not support "legacy" desktop applications except for a touch optimised Microsoft Office and Internet Explorer. The store is the only way to distribute Metro applications except in an internal company network.

[QUOTE=SupahVee;36244564]I'm quite frustrated by the fact that OpenGL won't be available in a Metro environment, but cursing against Microsoft won't solve a thing. Is there any way it can be wrapped or is it an hardware limitation? I would love to use SFML and C# to build Metro apps :/ [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] x86 and x64 apps won't be supported on ARM tablets or other ARM devices. Only Metro apps will be supported in ARM devices. Legacy apps will be available in the store but they will be selected by Microsoft itself and won't auto-install, it will work just like a link to the app's website. Metro apps will be greatly supported, easy to install and distribute, so it's natural that I'm interested in Metro development. Legacy development won't be influenced at all by the Metro environment, but honestly it would be easier to use the store to distribute apps and games.[/QUOTE][QUOTE=Darwin226;36244554]I'd like to know that too. Also, I seem to be a bit confused about what metro actually is. Isn't it just a design they're using?[/QUOTE] There's some confusion as to what Metro apps are. Metro apps can't use OpenGL mostly because no one here has the time to implement OpenGL into WinRT. Metro apps run in a Sandbox environment, and getting both DirectX and OpenGL into that would be a waste of resources and time. It's not worth the effort to implement OpenGL for the very small market that exists for it. Metro refers to what's known as the WinRT API. It's a special API that uses the Metro UI elements, and allows for some really cool stuff like developing apps in C++, C#, VB, or JavaScript/HTML/CSS. The really neat part is that you can have apps interact with each other.... For example, if I make a notepad app, I could have a todo list in it that sets an Alarm in the Alarm app, which goes off when I drive near the grocery store and remind me of which groceries I need. All you have to do is code some simple "Contracts" which other apps can use. Of course, there's even more neat stuff like Live Tiles, displaying info on the lock screen, notifications, and much more. [QUOTE=ief014;36239061]Why would they get rid of XNA for Metro? They would get a lot more community content with it.[/QUOTE] Again, they didn't "get rid of it!!!1" we just didn't have time to implement it into WinRT. However, I would not give up all hope. At the BUILD event last fall, the Xbox team talked about some stuff regarding an "easy to use API" that they are working on, and we might see that in the future but that all depends on what they want to release. [QUOTE=ief014;36239061] So what do I suggest you do? Well, Direct2D and the Direct3D APIs are worth a look at. DirectX11 is super easy to learn, plus there's already 3rd party solutions working on what you want to do. Or, you can just wait and see what happens. Or, just develop your XNA game without Metro for now.

No one's shit runs on metro = not using metro = no one using metro = no one using Windows 8 = not caring about Windows 8 = Windows 7 [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] Metro, because I want my PC to be like a smartphone.

[QUOTE=Se1f_Distruct;36249024]No one's shit runs on metro = not using metro = no one using metro = no one using Windows 8 = not caring about Windows 8 = Windows 7[/QUOTE] Hardly. It's incredibly easy to port an app into Metro. Like I said, WinRT adds the possibility to develop even more impressive applications due to how apps can share data.

This thread really shows how compatible XNA, OpenGL, and the .NET framework is! Thanks guys! I'm going to switch from W7 to metro now! [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] Data sharing is cool, but I don't see any practical uses for most of it unless you use your computer as a smartphone.

[QUOTE=Se1f_Distruct;36249100]This thread really shows how compatible XNA, OpenGL, and the .NET framework is! Thanks guys! I'm going to switch from W7 to metro now! [editline]8th June 2012[/editline] Data sharing is cool, but I don't see any practical uses for most of it unless you use your computer as a smartphone.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure I understand. OpenGL, XNA, .NET, and existing/future desktop applications will work fine, if not better in Win8. It's more than just data sharing. Right now if you develop a Metro app, you get incredibly easy-to-use APIs for things like webcams, touch, Bluetooth, NFC, the Cloud, syncing data across PCs, and networking (social, web, etc). For the first time, you don't have to worry about those messy COM imports and all that other nonsense. If you have basic JavaScript knowledge, you can make pretty much any app you can think of. I'm really not exaggerating, it's that easy.

And they will NOT work on Windows RT, the ARM version which will be on the cheaper devices.

"No-cost Windows 8 desktop development returns with Express for Desktop" YES. YES. YES. [url]http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/no-cost-windows-8-desktop-development-returns-with-express-for-desktop/[/url]

[QUOTE=Se1f_Distruct;36249100]This thread really shows how compatible XNA, OpenGL, and the .NET framework is! Thanks guys! I'm going to switch from W7 to metro now![/QUOTE] This is sarcastic right? .NET and XNA are only officially supported on Windows, and XNA uses DirectX rather than OpenGL.

[QUOTE=SupahVee;36251827]"No-cost Windows 8 desktop development returns with Express for Desktop" YES. YES. YES. [url]http://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2012/06/no-cost-windows-8-desktop-development-returns-with-express-for-desktop/[/url][/QUOTE] Great! Not that I ever wanna make something for W8, but still great! That day Microsoft limit poor developers to just write shitty apps that they have full control over is not here yet.

[QUOTE=AlienCat;36277012]Great! Not that I ever wanna make something for W8, but still great! That day Microsoft limit poor developers to just write shitty apps that they have full control over is not here yet.[/QUOTE] You were hardly limited. You could just like, I dunno, use an older Visual Studio? Move to another language and IDE? Change which framework you were using? Use one of the hundreds of workarounds people on the Internet would have found? It wasn't the best move on their part, but it was hardly the end of the world.

[QUOTE=AlienCat;36277012]Great! Not that I ever wanna make something for W8, but still great! That day Microsoft limit poor developers to just write shitty apps that they have full control over is not here yet.[/QUOTE] What do you mean by "shitty apps"? If developers are that poor, they can apply for Bizspark and get software for free.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;36278120]You were hardly limited. You could just like, I dunno, use an older Visual Studio?[/QUOTE] That's awful. Slower code, lesser standards compliance, etc. It was completely moronic move and I'm glad MS had the common sense to reverse it.