Hollow is bad? - Developers

I've heard that using the "hollow" function on brushes is bad. I mean, I know that using "carve" is like one of the worst mapping crimes but whats so bad about hollow?

Because it's actually [b]carving.[/b] mapdoc.cpp; line 4865 [quote] // Carve every solid in the selection with a scaled copy of itself. This accomplishes // the goal of hollowing them. [/quote]

Why is carving bad? I use it for windows- I make a brush the size of the window, put it into the wall, carve it, ungroup the wall and put the window in. Accomplishes the same thing if I had made space for it beforehand and saves me two minutes.

Never use carve; that includes hollowing. Carving fucks up your maps, and I assume most of us had to learn that the hard way. Carving creates more brushes, and unlike clip, the tool assumes where to clip the brushes, and usually horizontally. Clipping, however, is more "cleaner", and you may clip where ever is necessary and where you want it. Same idea for hollowing.

[QUOTE=HighdefGE;19435656]Never use carve; that includes hollowing. Carving fucks up your maps, and I assume most of us had to learn that the hard way. Carving creates more brushes, and unlike clip, the tool assumes where to clip the brushes, and usually horizontally. Clipping, however, is more "cleaner", and you may clip where ever is necessary and where you want it. Same idea for hollowing.[/QUOTE] The dev wiki said that carve is okay if it's a rectangle aligned to the grid. Is this OK? Edit: Really simple carving, like so: [url]http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/images/6/6e/Hammer_carving.jpg[/url]

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19435688]The dev wiki said that carve is okay if it's a rectangle aligned to the grid. Is this OK? Edit: Really simple carving, like so: [url]http://developer.valvesoftware.com/w/images/6/6e/Hammer_carving.jpg[/url][/QUOTE] No, carving is not okay, even if it's for rectangles and squares.

[QUOTE=HighdefGE;19435795]No, carving is not okay, even if it's for rectangles and squares.[/QUOTE] Wow, seriously? I've been using it for rectangles and haven't yet had a problem with it. Why shouldn't it be used?

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19435883]Wow, seriously? I've been using it for rectangles and haven't yet had a problem with it. Why shouldn't it be used?[/QUOTE] Because it clips brushes where you don't want them, thus creating more brushes than you originally want. Carving/hollowing won't align anything correctly, and it also increases compile time. The point is, it's just buggy, and it's possible that if you have a leak in your map, the carving/hollowing might be the cause of that.

Well, looks like I won't be hollowing anymore...

[QUOTE=HighdefGE;19435982]Because it clips brushes where you don't want them, thus creating more brushes than you originally want. Carving/hollowing won't align anything correctly, and it also increases compile time. The point is, it's just buggy, and it's possible that if you have a leak in your map, the carving/hollowing might be the cause of that.[/QUOTE] Ah, damn. I just read up a bit on carving. So, even if I don't carve, it's better in a place where I have to make a square hole in a wall, it's better to make trapezoids instead of rectangles around the hole? Also: Is this a "stop doing it from now on" thing or "go back through any map I plan on releasing and fix it because the effect is that dramatic" thing?

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19436051]Ah, damn. I just read up a bit on carving. So, even if I don't carve, it's better in a place where I have to make a square hole in a wall, it's better to make trapezoids instead of rectangles around the hole?[/QUOTE] Nah, rectangles are easier to resize, carving just picks a retarded way of making the hole, which means it's easy to resize the width of the hole, but not the height and means holes of differing position and size in the same wall will amke an absolute clusterfuck of brushes. [img]http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/9072/clipvscarve.jpg[/img] An illustration of what I mean, I hope this clears things up for you.

I'm getting the feeling that this is the kind of thing that people are telling me to steer clear of only because if I get in the habit of using it, it'll cause me problems when I try to do something even borderline complicated, but it doesn't cause problems just because it was used. Bottom-line question: Can it be used for very simple window patterns like this: [IMG]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d58/photobug101/wall.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19436442]I'm getting the feeling that this is the kind of thing that people are telling me to steer clear of only because if I get in the habit of using it, it'll cause me problems when I try to do something even borderline complicated, but it doesn't cause problems just because it was used. Bottom-line question: Can it be used for very simple window patterns like this: [IMG]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d58/photobug101/wall.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Still awkward o resize height wise. See my last post. In other words, no.

[QUOTE=metallics;19436825]Still awkward o resize height wise. See my last post. In other words, no.[/QUOTE] Awkward resizing is the only problem?

The only use I have for hollow is to create a "lazy" skybox, otherwise I wouldn't bother putting it into my brushwork. If you ever use it for whatever reason, always CTRL+U (ungroup).

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19437083]Awkward resizing is the only problem?[/QUOTE] No, it also causes weird issues too. Bottom line is, don't carve [B]EVER[/B]. Clip it. [editline]09:02PM[/editline] [QUOTE=Yadda;19437685]The only use I have for hollow is to create a "lazy" skybox, otherwise I wouldn't bother putting it into my brushwork. If you ever use it for whatever reason, always CTRL+U (ungroup).[/QUOTE] Cordon tool is better.

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19437701]No, it also causes weird issues too. Bottom line is, don't carve [B]EVER[/B]. Clip it. Cordon tool is better.[/QUOTE] Alright, no carving. Again, should I go back and replace every instance that I've carved in or just not do it from now on?

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19437756]Alright, no carving. Again, should I go back and replace every instance that I've carved in or just not do it from now on?[/QUOTE] Replace them.

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19437756]Alright, no carving. Again, should I go back and replace every instance that I've carved in or just not do it from now on?[/QUOTE] Make sure the vertices are aligned properly (I've seen carve create microscopic holes), or just replace them, but don't use from now on.

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19437762]Replace them.[/QUOTE] I feel like if I just ungrouped every place I've carved and align it to the grid if it's off it would accomplish the same thing if I deleted everything that I carved and replacing it with the same brushwork.

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19437839]I feel like if I just ungrouped every place I've carved and align it to the grid if it's off it would accomplish the same thing if I deleted everything that I carved and replacing it with the same brushwork.[/QUOTE] Its not the same. Sometimes when you carve it messes with the brush faces after compile, i.e. wrong texture in game but right in hammer. (Happened to a friend of mine I yelled at) Remake it!

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19437874]Its not the same. Sometimes when you carve it messes with the brush faces after compile, i.e. wrong texture in game but right in hammer. (Happened to a friend of mine I yelled at) Remake it![/QUOTE] Unless it has the capability of corrupting my entire map and making it unplayable, I think it would be a more productive use of my time and effort to not do it again and if I see a texture wigging out or some weird geometry going on then I can take steps to fix it then. I haven't noticed any problems in the multiple compiles and testing I've done on my map, so I really don't want to spend time fixing a problem that doesn't appear to be there. If I'm wrong on that, tell me now. I'm new to mapping. So basically, I don't want to spend time fixing the orthodoxy of the map.

I've always liked clipping instead of carving, in all situations.

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19437946]Unless it has the capability of corrupting my entire map and making it unplayable, I think it would be a more productive use of my time and effort to not do it again and if I see a texture wigging out or some weird geometry going on then I can take steps to fix it then. I haven't noticed any problems in the multiple compiles and testing I've done on my map, so I really don't want to spend time fixing a problem that doesn't appear to be there. If I'm wrong on that, tell me now. I'm new to mapping.[/QUOTE] You are wrong good sir. Clip it/them.

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19437980]You are wrong good sir. Clip it/them.[/QUOTE] nonono, I'm not going to carve any more, but I think it's a poor use of my time to go back and replace every instance that I might have carved.

Its better to fix them up now then have issues later on. Besides, I think something about vertical clips are more optimized then carve's horizontal clips.

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19438069]Its better to fix them up now then have issues later on.[/QUOTE] What I'm saying is, if there are no issues now, and I don't repeat what could cause problems, then what's the point of fixing a problem that only might come up? It's like resurfacing a road before it starts to crack and get potholes just because it may be prone to doing so later on.

Stop being lazy and just fucking clip! It only takes a second.

[QUOTE=Sirrus;19438131]What I'm saying is, if there are no issues now, and I don't repeat what could cause problems, then what's the point of fixing a problem that only might come up? It's like resurfacing a road before it starts to crack and get potholes just because it may be prone to doing so later on.[/QUOTE] Good god sir are you stubborn or what? Remake the carved brushes and clip them. Your level will be easier to create, and will probably be more optimized.

[QUOTE=Firegod522;19438248]Good god sir are you stubborn or what? Remake the carved brushes and clip them. Your level will be easier to create, and will probably be more optimized.[/QUOTE] Alright, I'm just trying to make the most efficient use of my time. Also what exactly do you mean when you say clip? I understand the clip tool in the context of, say, making a corner, but how can it be used to make a hole in a wall (if that's what you're talking about doing)?