Source Engine vs. Unreal Engine 4 (case of modding) - Developers

I've been working on a small mod for about 3 months now on the Source engine, and have came to realization that 80% of my work is pretty much finding ways to fix outdated things for Hammer, and figuring out how to properly export things to it (working on the 2007 release, so it's even more fun...). I started wondering if it wouldn't be a better idea to redo it again in UDK4. Found out it has inner animation system, works good with maya and blender, and looks really pretty. I'm a student so I've sent a request for a github pack (free pack including UDK4), but the wait takes forever, and I would like to get started on the holiday break. So now I'm thinking of buying it for 1 month, and canceling the subscription. But here's my question fp: "Is it worth it?" FYI: I'd like the udk to be easy to use, have a big library of models and textures, and not many bugs.

It's worth it.

[QUOTE=Frying Dutchman;46785711]It's worth it.[/QUOTE] Thanks. Also, may I know what in your opinion are its best and worst sides?

[QUOTE=aln447;46785740]Thanks. Also, may I know what in your opinion are its best and worst sides?[/QUOTE] Source is the worst side, UDK is the best side. A google search would bring you pro's and cons. This should say enough: UDK2 came out 2002 Source came out 2004 UDK3 came out 2009 UDK4 came out 2014 Source is outdated.

[QUOTE=Spherix;46785802] UDK2 came out 2002 Source came out 2004 UDK3 came out 2009 UDK4 came out 2014[/QUOTE] That doesn't mean jack shit really, Source is still easier to use than Unreal Engine 4, atleast in terms of mapping and creating "events" in maps triggered by whatever. UE4 is cool with it's blueprints and all and great, but you can really do alot just in the Hammer editor really easily if you don't even know a coding language.

[QUOTE=Spherix;46785802]Source is the worst side, UDK is the best side. A google search would bring you pro's and cons. This should say enough: UDK2 came out 2002 Source came out 2004 UDK3 came out 2009 UDK4 came out 2014 Source is outdated.[/QUOTE] I. Age is not really an argument here. II. Newest source release was in 2013. III. I'm looking for opinions from facepunch people, whom I somehow believe more than google search results. [editline]24th December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=VaSTinY;46785816]That doesn't mean jack shit really, Source is still easier to use than Unreal Engine 4, atleast in terms of mapping and creating "events" in maps triggered by whatever. UE4 is cool with it's blueprints and all and great, but you can really do alot just in the Hammer editor really easily if you don't even know a coding language.[/QUOTE] I'm really fresh with coding so yes, the event and trigger system in source is great. But I've realized that source has very big problems when you want to use custom content. Heard UE4 doesn't have those issues.

[QUOTE=aln447;46785820] I'm really fresh with coding so yes, the event and trigger system in source is great. But I've realized that source has very big problems when you want to use custom content. Heard UE4 doesn't have those issues.[/QUOTE] I don't know anything about coding either more or less, played around with UE4 a couple days ago and I think so far it's trying to be like what Source is to people who are inexperienced: Easy and user friendly with the blueprint system that is really easy to play around with. The blueprint system is still a challenge though, but if it's anything like Hammer where if you play around with enough of the things for a while and you know your way around it, you can make some pretty cool stuff without knowing much about coding I think I won't argue that UE4 is definitely tons better in importing freshly made models from Blender for example, whereas in Source it takes a few 5-8 minutes -if you know what you're doing- to import a working model with textures. Personally I favor the level design aspect of game editors, so I'm very big on Source because of it's simpleness once you learn what all the buttons do. UE4's level editing is also easy, but to create level events you need to setup a tree system of blueprints and stuff, which you still need to learn a bit to understand how it's put together.

[QUOTE=aln447;46785740]Thanks. Also, may I know what in your opinion are its best and worst sides?[/QUOTE] I am working on a commercial game based on UE4, and in fact we did prototype on Source Engine (in garry's mod even). Some good things: the editor is designed for artists. The content pipeline is basically "do you have textures/models/sounds? lets get them into game right away!". Material system is [B]wow[/B]. You can make any material you need easily. Same goes for audio, etc. Blueprint scripts are more awkward that writing actual program code, but they can give you much nicer and complex logic than Hammer ever will. Sorta-not-really bad side: the approach to mapping in UE4 is different than in Source. Forget about brushes - in UE4 you will assemble the map out of static meshes. It's up to you how you will make these meshes and such, but if you wanna level design like in hammer, you'll need some external application. Just forget about brush-based level design in UE4. It still has things to precompute visibility (think VVIS) and very good support for lightmaps (albeit needs a bit of manual configuring - you need to specify lightmap sizes and such to hint lightmap UV generator on best solutions), so something like VRAD is present there (and seems a bit more powerful than actual VRAD). Brushes in UE4 are used only for level geometry prototyping, sealing plain holes, that kinda stuff, but in no way for real level design. Even better things: the map limits are virtually non-existent (for singleplayer you can create unlimited size worlds, for multiplayer currently limit is about ~5x5 km for things to stay stable, but there is no real invisible wall at 5 km). The engine is inherently 64-bit so you have no limit on how much data you can load in memory. Streaming levels are supported though. Assets: okay, I admit I can't tell you what about assets. We're making all own assets for our game, from scratch, so I have no issue with assets and I never actually looked into what kinda assets are available for UE4. Any 3D models or textures are importable into it though, so there's that. As a side note, audio system in UE4 is much more advanced than in Source. Source audio is outdated and obsolete, and rubbish. I'm a bit hungry right now, so my opinion might not be very coherent here, but I'll try to write up more details if you'd like. Also there's no 'UDK4'. It's called Unreal Engine 4, and you use UE4 SDK. It has nothing to do with UDK3 or things before (albeit some of code is based on UDK3, it's a brand new 'from scratch' engine). UE4 used to be in 'beta' kinda state, and there are still issues, but as some more seriously developers are starting to use it, the issues are ironed out. There are numerous commits per day into UE4 repository with bugfixes and such.

[QUOTE=BlackPhoenix;46786041]I am working on a commercial game based on UE4, and in fact we did prototype on Source Engine (in garry's mod even). Some good things: the editor is designed for artists. The content pipeline is basically "do you have textures/models/sounds? lets get them into game right away!". Material system is [B]wow[/B]. You can make any material you need easily. Same goes for audio, etc. Blueprint scripts are more awkward that writing actual program code, but they can give you much nicer and complex logic than Hammer ever will. Sorta-not-really bad side: the approach to mapping in UE4 is different than in Source. Forget about brushes - in UE4 you will assemble the map out of static meshes. It's up to you how you will make these meshes and such, but if you wanna level design like in hammer, you'll need some external application. Just forget about brush-based level design in UE4. It still has things to precompute visibility (think VVIS) and very good support for lightmaps (albeit needs a bit of manual configuring - you need to specify lightmap sizes and such to hint lightmap UV generator on best solutions), so something like VRAD is present there (and seems a bit more powerful than actual VRAD). Brushes in UE4 are used only for level geometry prototyping, sealing plain holes, that kinda stuff, but in no way for real level design. Even better things: the map limits are virtually non-existent (for singleplayer you can create unlimited size worlds, for multiplayer currently limit is about ~5x5 km for things to stay stable, but there is no real invisible wall at 5 km). The engine is inherently 64-bit so you have no limit on how much data you can load in memory. Streaming levels are supported though. Assets: okay, I admit I can't tell you what about assets. We're making all own assets for our game, from scratch, so I have no issue with assets and I never actually looked into what kinda assets are available for UE4. Any 3D models or textures are importable into it though, so there's that. As a side note, audio system in UE4 is much more advanced than in Source. Source audio is outdated and obsolete, and rubbish. I'm a bit hungry right now, so my opinion might not be very coherent here, but I'll try to write up more details if you'd like. Also there's no 'UDK4'. It's called Unreal Engine 4, and you use UE4 SDK. It has nothing to do with UDK3 or things before (albeit some of code is based on UDK3, it's a brand new 'from scratch' engine). UE4 used to be in 'beta' kinda state, and there are still issues, but as some more seriously developers are starting to use it, the issues are ironed out. There are numerous commits per day into UE4 repository with bugfixes and such.[/QUOTE] Thanks for the detailed reply. I believe I won't have much trouble with the blueprint system. I'll probably make the purchase tomorrow, or after Christmas. Thank you all for the replies. I hope my work with UE4 will be fruitful. Merry Christmas!

Switching to a modern engine is probably one of the best decisions you will make in game design. I was working on a mod not to long ago with source and just kept hitting so many limits engine wise, and getting custom content in and everything was a pain. When I switched to UE4 everything was so much easier, and better looking too! The ability to use blueprints really gives way to so much potential, far far more advanced than anything you could possibly do in hammer, and they are super useful for prototyping everything.

My only real complaint about UE4 is its interface is messy and you need to figure out what option is buried under what for more advanced things like texture streaming, and what channel lightmaps use, etc. But as far as its asset pipeline goes it's really easy to get working concepts in and out quickly. You'll need to figure out UE4's material system properly before you can really do too much with it, otherwise you'll be compiling the shaders for all of eternity. (material instances and whatnot)

Thanks. And how is it about making more story based mods. Ie. Is it possible to make map transitions, making cutscenes etc?

[QUOTE=aln447;46787575]Thanks. And how is it about making more story based mods. Ie. Is it possible to make map transitions, making cutscenes etc?[/QUOTE] You'll have to start to remember that it wont be a mod anymore, but a full standalone game if you use UE4. With UE4, you dont need any map transitions, there is no loading maps (unless you want to) because the engine can support massive worlds and level streaming. Cut scenes are super easy with Matinee and far more flexible and powerful than anything you'd get in Source.

[QUOTE=aln447;46787575]Thanks. And how is it about making more story based mods. Ie. Is it possible to make map transitions, making cutscenes etc?[/QUOTE] You can split your game world into big sections which are easily streamed on the fly, have a massive big world that you can freely move through, etc. Making cutscenes is trivial, UE4 has something like a video editor which lets you specify keyframes and events for anything in the animation.

[QUOTE=Shirky;46788126]You'll have to start to remember that it wont be a mod anymore, but a full standalone game if you use UE4. With UE4, you dont need any map transitions, there is no loading maps (unless you want to) because the engine can support massive worlds and level streaming. Cut scenes are super easy with Matinee and far more flexible and powerful than anything you'd get in Source.[/QUOTE] I know, I know, I just got kinda used to the term mod when working on it on the source engine. [editline]25th December 2014[/editline] [QUOTE=BlackPhoenix;46788599]You can split your game world into big sections which are easily streamed on the fly, have a massive big world that you can freely move through, etc. Making cutscenes is trivial, UE4 has something like a video editor which lets you specify keyframes and events for anything in the animation.[/QUOTE] Good to know. Does it work also for npc animations? I know that UE compatible with maya and blender for animations, but I was wondering how is it with that inside the soft.

SOURCE VS UDK BSP vs Quadtree-like-thing It. [editline]27th December 2014[/editline] Hammer is pickier and requires more precompilation. UDK is weird. I don't like the whole UScript idea, just a waste of resource, all the code that you will write is open to everyone's eyes too (unless they have some sort of obfuscation now, I don't follow it). Try Ogre3D, that's the real shit. Don't bitch yourself out to Valve or Epic.

[QUOTE=crowbarb;46807372]SOURCE VS UDK BSP vs Quadtree-like-thing It. [editline]27th December 2014[/editline] Hammer is pickier and requires more precompilation. UDK is weird. I don't like the whole UScript idea, just a waste of resource, all the code that you will write is open to everyone's eyes too (unless they have some sort of obfuscation now, I don't follow it). Try Ogre3D, that's the real shit. Don't bitch yourself out to Valve or Epic.[/QUOTE] >tfw when you expect shrek, and you get a cool 3d engine. Thanks. I'll keep it in ming, although I already bought the first month od Unreal, so gues I'l stick to it for now.. Ps. You people got any cool places to download model resources from, apart from the marketplace?

[QUOTE=aln447;46809273]>tfw when you expect shrek, and you get a cool 3d engine. Thanks. I'll keep it in ming, although I already bought the first month od Unreal, so gues I'l stick to it for now.. Ps. You people got any cool places to download model resources from, apart from the marketplace?[/QUOTE] UDK and UE4 are vastly different, don't get the two confused.