So I've been thinking about the Spy and the Engineer. Along with Heavy and Pyro they are the "worst" classes in the game
Even though the fable EngineerVsSpy Update came as the GunMettle and was furthermore tweaked with the ToughBreak and MeetYourMatch, they still are underwhelming compared to the Generalists (Scout,Soldier,Demoman) the Medic and the Sniper.
I've pretty much let my ideas on the Heavy and Pyro come and go as their reworks are (supposedly) coming "soon" and "eventually".
So here are my thoughts on the Engy and the Spy.
I'll begin with the Engy, since he's the easier one.
The main problem I've noticed is his sluggishness. In order to have the full value of this class you need to set up all four buildings and build them up to Level3.
If you're defending on PL or A/D this can be done before the match begins, especially with EurekaEffect+Jag shenanigans.
So in KOTH, PL-Attack, A/D-Attack, CP, CTF and any other gamemode, you might as well run the Gunslinger and/or ignore your support buildings.
Even in the modes that Engy works, when you lose a point, you might as well build two points back and give up the halfway point, if you want a fully operational battle station.
Here, I naively thought to myself, the solution is obvious! Cut the construction speed of support buildings to half!
This way you can on your way to the battlefield pop down an entrance, an exit, a mini and a dispencer.
You already could, but they would most likely be destroyed before they get any value.
After a bit of searching I managed to find a [URL="https://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Buildings"]wikiPage with the construction times[/URL].
So, did you know that all support buildings take DOUBLE the time a Sentry does to construct and redeploy?! Because I didn't.
So, here's my two cents. Cut the build speed of support buildings by THREE FOURTHS and the Upgrade speed by half, making them both half that of a Sentry's.
Then, just to go ham on support buildings, when using a teleporter you gain a speedboost corresponding to its level.
Something around .33 to .5 second at Lvl1, .66 to 1 second at Lvl2 and .1 to .1.5 second at Lvl3.
Another QoL buff would be not to Level down Teleporters when the Engy destroys them.
In addition, Dispencer's Healing speed should be increased to from 10->15->20 to 15->20->25 (inCombatMedigun heals 24/s, outOfCombat up to 72/s)
You can even allow them to Overheal, 0%@Lvl1->10%@Lvl2->20%@Lvl3.
This keeps an overHealed Engy at 150, still able to die by a quickShot, fullyChargedBodyShot and 2 Pipes but survives spam much better.
On to the Spy. He is a pick class that needs to be in melee. He however doesn't have the speed-burst and surviveability the meme-class DemoKnight has and well, the Sniper can take the same important pick (medic) from a comfortable distance, with no janky melee hitreg, without getting killed immediately after and do it FASTER.
So we need to power up the Spy's core kit and help him generalize a bit.
The Updates past did a pretty good job of that with his baseSpeedBuff and the Cloak buffs, so lets work on the rest of his kit.
The DisguiseKit buff is easy. "Spies gain 20% damage resistance when Cloaked or Disguised. Doesn't stack".
This means, a Spy needs one more Wrench hit to die, survives fullyChargedBodyShots and QuickShots with 5HP, can move through spamy chokepoints easier etc.
Lets move on to the Revolver. Straight up increase its damage to 50. This will push his damage output closer to that of a Generalist.
This decreases his ShotsToKill on 125+150HP classes from 4 to 3, on 175+200HP classes from 5 to 4 and on 300HP classes from 8 to 6.
Now, in maxRampUp he can doubleTap a Medic with a max of 75dmg per shot. If this is too much, its ramp up can be decreased to +25% (like the rocketLauncher), making it 63dmg compared to the current maxRampUp 60, thus allowing to doubleTap 125HP classes but not 150HP.
From that point onward, we start reworking the rest of his primaries based on that.
Ambassador and Diamondback get a -20% damage, bumping them to the current Stock's 40 (6 higher than their current), dealing 120dmg on crits. This pushes their lethality even further and their doubleTapping capabilities to the extremes that Generalists have.
L'etranger remains unchanged, the blanket damage buff pushes it to 40 (current stock revolver)
Enforcer. MiniCrits when disguised. This will push its maxRampUp damage at 101, allowing him to doubleTap 175HP classes at maxRampUp.
With the possible reduced maxRampUp of 125% it's 84 damage, dealing 147HP with two maxRampUp shots (84+63).
Also no damage fall-off would mean all-range 68 damage, quite strong when you know every enemy's HP.
Off to the Knives now. Spy's strength compared to Sniper, comes from being able to quickly dispose of fullyOverhealed targets, especially Heavies and from chainstabs. Do you know what helps with chainstabs? Speedboost. So, this might sound crazy but stick with me, after all this is pen'n'paper balancing.
Stock Knife: Gain a 3(?) second speed boost on backstab.
Imo too much, but we're straight up stealing this from the BigEarner. I'd say 1" to begin with and then balance accordingly.
Now you can choose to chain your kills or try and run away, and you don't even need the DeadRinger! How'bout'dat.
Balancing Unlocks based on new Stock:
YourEternalReward, remove all negatives, no SpeedBoost on kill(<-it would actually fuck with the weapon's usage).
Possible buff, inherit all of the target's buffs (speedboost, max overheal, VaccinatorBubble, etc).
Possible counter-nerf, inherit all of the target's de-buffs (ally's Jarate, bleed, afterburn, etc) (<-also slight buff, helps with believability).
Kunai gets no SpeedBoost on kill. Remove Health penalty, or reduce to -25. Tweak maxOH accordingly to balance.
Spycicle, keep as is. Maybe reduce afterBurn immunity.
BigEarner. As we stole the speedboost from it I recommend a complete rework. +1" Critboost on successful backstab, no speedboost.
This combined with the stronger Revolver, will allow a Spy to backstab the pocket and then 1hit QuickShot the Medic.
It takes .5" to change weapons and the Revolver's rateOfFire is .58", allowing only one critical shot per backstab.
I believe the Sapper is fine, but the RedTapeRecorder could do with a buff. +35% HP, meaning it takes 3 Wrench hits, 4 Jag hits and 2 Homewrecker hits.
The definitive "kill me before removing the sapper" and "fuck off Pybros" option.
Finally, even though this is almost dreamlike and will likely never happen, completely rewrite the melee hitreg code. Yes for all classes, because its trash, but mostly to redo (on a better base) the Backstab hitreg. No more "totally a trickstab, not a facestab, promise", please.
So, forgive me for the block of text. Tell me why my ideas are trash and I'll do my best to tweak and iterate.
PS: I started writing this on the GCSS but it kept growing and growing. So instead of taking a monitor-sized chunk in there, I chose to make my first thread, woo~
PSS: Watch the PyroJungleContracts3 Update drop with big Engineer and Spy changes, making this thread 100% useless.
I'd love to see engineer's sentry guns nerfed slightly and the other buildings buffed considerably.
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52769807]I'd love to see engineer's sentry guns nerfed slightly and the other buildings buffed considerably.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure if Engy can take a Sentry nerf when running stock loadout.
Now when you combine it with the meta RescueRanger+Wrangler+Jag I can see it, but that's more of an Unlock balancing rather than a core-Class change.
Well I don't want to argue about sentry guns.
I approve of your suggestion to make other buildings build faster.
I don't know if I agree with the speed boost on teleport thing. I'd rather see teleporters be less of a hassle to set up/not have to start from square one every time spawn changes.
I don't think I like the idea of dispensers overhealing. I can't help but think there'd be pretty serious consequences. Wouldn't this make stalemates more common by bolstering the staying power of an engie nest?
[QUOTE=Mockingbird;52770193]Well I don't want to argue about sentry guns.
I approve of your suggestion to make other buildings build faster.
I don't know if I agree with the speed boost on teleport thing. I'd rather see teleporters be less of a hassle to set up/not have to start from square one every time spawn changes.
I don't think I like the idea of dispensers overhealing. I can't help but think there'd be pretty serious consequences. Wouldn't this make stalemates more common by bolstering the staying power of an engie nest?[/QUOTE]
The proposed change of not de-leveling the teleporter when the Engy destroys it would help with the "starting at square one" every new spawn. With the faster building speed it becomes even easier to move forward.
The overheal is less than what a Medic would do, even with a QuickFix, so ideally no extra stale mates. After all most stalemates come from bad teamcomps and/or bad maps. An Ubered Demoman should still be able to destroy a nest with relative ease.
I think the highest value of Dispencer is not next to the Engy and his nest but near the choke for the rest of the team and there the Overheal will be important for teams with no or pocket-only Medics. Even better for Medics as they can get OH without needing a second doctor.
Keep in mind that this should also be applicable in attack with the increased build speed!
Engi doesn't need everything level three to be effective, the jag makes rapid deployment of level 2's very viable, to say nothing of the gunslinger.
[QUOTE=Petroklos;52769455]So, forgive me for the block of text. Tell me why my ideas are trash and I'll do my best to tweak and iterate.
[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]PSS: Watch the PyroJungleContracts3 Update drop with big Engineer and Spy changes, making this thread 100% useless. [/QUOTE]
Where have you been the last few months? Are you not aware that there is already an official blog post that details how Valve intends to balance a huge number of the weapons in the game, including multiple owned by Spy and the Engineer? Which brings me to this:
[QUOTE]Ambassador and Diamondback get a -20% damage, bumping them to the current Stock's 40 (6 higher than their current), dealing 120dmg on crits. This pushes their lethality even further and their doubleTapping capabilities to the extremes that Generalists have.[/QUOTE]
You actually suggested buffing the Ambassador, when the TF2 developers themselves admit that the weapon is overpowered and are preparing to nerf it significantly in the new update.
[QUOTE=CyclonatorZ;52770876]Where have you been the last few months? Are you not aware that there is already an official blog post that details how Valve intends to balance a huge number of the weapons in the game, including multiple owned by Spy and the Engineer? Which brings me to this:
You actually suggested buffing the Ambassador, when the TF2 developers themselves admit that the weapon is overpowered and are preparing to nerf it significantly in the new update.[/QUOTE]
I didn't touch any of the Engineer's weapons, so that puts the Rescue Ranger out of the Picture.
I didn't touch the Deadringer as well.
My changes on both the YER and Amby work on both their Live and Proposed version, as neither plays with the stats Valve might change.
The buff is for +4 damage, whereas Stock would get +10 and Ambassador's negative would increase from +15% to +20%.
Maybe it wasn't obvious, but I've thought this through. Including how the Ambassador still can't 1shot kill any class with full Health.
[editline]12th October 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52770479]Engi doesn't need everything level three to be effective, the jag makes rapid deployment of level 2's very viable, to say nothing of the gunslinger.[/QUOTE]
I'm looking at stock, not the meta loadouts. Weak stock leads to crutches and band-aid weapons and mechanics. See: Pyro.
And I do agree that not everything needs to be Lvl2, but most of the time, when not on Defense, you'll have a MiniSentry and likely nothing else. Most buildings tend to get destroyed before they get built or have any value OR be too far away from the fight to be of much use.
You can preemptively build a point back, but that pretty much forfeiting a big part of your usefulness in the mid fights.
Another important thing that might be worthy of mention on the OP, those ideas came from considering "How would I make a 6s team with all-class limits of 1".
Scout-Soldier-Demoman-Medic, easy 4/6.
Add Pyro, even right now, because Powerjack's speed and Airblast against the certainty of both explosive classes.
That leaves one more gap that no class REALLY fits in.
Heavy could with the GRU, even better if combined with Tomislav.
Sniper could with any loadout, but with a very niche role.
Engineer needs Gunslinger, but he would still be the last one, without Sniper's burst or Heavy's HP, he would also need to build a Mini to have his full combat value and no other building would be even close to ready for the midfight. It's just too slow.
Spy suffers from the same speed issues, being the last in mid (Medic can piggyback the Scout after all) and having to walk behind the enemies for the possibility of a backstab, something the aforementioned Sniper would do better by Quickshoting the enemy medic.
Both the Spy and Engineer changes are meant to reinforce their capabilities on Attack and the powerup nest-Engies would get, easily gets counter balanced from the powerup Spies get against them, with resistance to damage when disguised, faster time to kill, better Sap'n'Shoot with the higher damage revolvers and more viable Sapper options.
[QUOTE=Petroklos;52771897]I'm looking at stock, not the meta loadouts. Weak stock leads to crutches and band-aid weapons and mechanics. See: Pyro.
And I do agree that not everything needs to be Lvl2, but most of the time, when not on Defense, you'll have a MiniSentry and likely nothing else. Most buildings tend to get destroyed before they get built or have any value OR be too far away from the fight to be of much use.
You can preemptively build a point back, but that pretty much forfeiting a big part of your usefulness in the mid fights.[/QUOTE]
But the entire game is designed around weapons being situationally useful. They buff your ability to fill certain roles while nerfing your ability to fulfill other roles. If stock was the optimal choice for all cases, you wouldn't ever equip anything else. It's FINE for stock wrench to be a poor choice in most cases on offense. It means that you have to think about which weapon is useful for which situation. The Wrench is for playing defensively, the jag is for playing more aggressively, on holds where the enemy is pushing up quickly or when playing on offense, and the gunslinger is for playing extremely aggressively on offense, koth, or specific situations where you're getting rolled on defense. The Jag isn't some be-all-end-all engineer meta wrench, it has substantial downsides in building survivability. It might have been too all-around useful before they gave it the sapper nerf, but now its downsides are quite reasonable.
The reason 6's doesn't accommodate engi well is because the 6s community refuses to playing anything other than 5cp or koth, not because engi doesn't have enough aggressive options.
[QUOTE]And I do agree that not everything needs to be Lvl2, but most of the time, when not on Defense, you'll have a MiniSentry and likely nothing else.[/QUOTE]
Only if you're a bad engi. The jag is extremely useful on offense.
[QUOTE=Mort Stroodle;52772110]But the entire game is designed around weapons being situationally useful. They buff your ability to fill certain roles while nerfing your ability to fulfill other roles. If stock was the optimal choice for all cases, you wouldn't ever equip anything else. It's FINE for stock wrench to be a poor choice in most cases on offense. It means that you have to think about which weapon is useful for which situation. The Wrench is for playing defensively, the jag is for playing more aggressively, on holds where the enemy is pushing up quickly or when playing on offense, and the gunslinger is for playing extremely aggressively on offense, koth, or specific situations where you're getting rolled on defense. The Jag isn't some be-all-end-all engineer meta wrench, it has substantial downsides in building survivability. It might have been too all-around useful before they gave it the sapper nerf, but now its downsides are quite reasonable.
The reason 6's doesn't accommodate engi well is because the 6s community refuses to playing anything other than 5cp or koth, not because engi doesn't have enough aggressive options.
Only if you're a bad engi. The jag is extremely useful on offense.[/QUOTE]
I'll take you up on that and try it some more, but so far my experiences have been negative.
And concerning Jag's balance, its only downside is the weakness against Spies, which is easily countered. In my eyes there's barely ever a reason to use stock Wrench over the Jag.
[QUOTE=Petroklos;52772291]I'll take you up on that and try it some more, but so far my experiences have been negative.
And concerning Jag's balance, its only downside is the weakness against Spies, which is easily countered. In my eyes there's barely ever a reason to use stock Wrench over the Jag.[/QUOTE]
The jag suffers from both weakness to spies and lower healing rate. Yes the healing reduction is mostly negated by the swing speed [I]in theory[/I], giving it only a slightly smaller health per second, but in practice the wrench is burst healing, and 102 damage repaired in that first swing vs the 82 repaired with the jag is a big difference. In the vast majority of cases you're not repairing a sentry for an extended period of time, you're repairing it from sudden burst damage, and the extra health immediately makes a big difference. Even the 5% overall increase in health per second can be decisive under some circumstances. The sapper damage penalties aren't easily countered by any stretch. Any small amount of teamwork makes destroying the sentry very easy when the engi has to hit it three times to destroy it the sapper, and a simple sapper-revolver combo is very reliable against a jag engi. Even if the engi does kill the spy it's going to be very hard to save the sentry when it has taken revolver damage in addition to that 1/3 more sapper damage. There's also the small point of not being able to as effectively make use of melee damage on spies as you can with the wrench, which is relevant because a sapping spy is likely to be in close range of you, though to be fair melee isn't going to be a very good idea against competent spies.
In general the use of the jag means you're forced not to use the rescue ranger under most circumstances, because you really need a reliable way to kill spies as quickly as possible, which RR just isn't very good at. This means giving up an arguably even more important source of sentry survivability.
I wonder how would it be if spy's decloak time was lower.
Not a suggestion, just a genuine question. I can't imagine the impact this buff would give in gameplay. It could be good but maybe there's a reason this buff hasn't been made earlier
[QUOTE=cidra;52774209]I wonder how would it be if spy's decloak time was lower.
Not a suggestion, just a genuine question. I can't imagine the impact this buff would give in gameplay. It could be good but maybe there's a reason this buff hasn't been made earlier[/QUOTE]
spies would get more aggressive with decloaks
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