Denmark Is Killing Tesla (and Other Electric Cars) - Sensationalist Headlines

[quote] The electric car has dropped out of favor in the country that pioneered renewable energy. Sales in Denmark of Electrically Chargeable Vehicles (ECV), which include plug-in hybrids, plunged 60.5 percent in the first quarter of the year, compared with the first three months of 2016, according to latest data from the European Automobile Manufacturers Association (ACEA). That contrasts with an increase of nearly 80 percent in neighboring Sweden and an average rise of 30 percent in the European Union.[/quote] [url]https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-02/denmark-is-killing-tesla-and-other-electric-cars[/url]

Im wondering if this is due to market saturation or is actually due to the removal of the subsidies. Like, it would have been helpul if the article compared EV sales to ICE sales during the subsidy removal period.

[quote] electric car dealers were for a long time spared the jaw-dropping [B]import tax of 180 percent[/B] that Denmark applies on vehicles fueled by a traditional combustion engine. [/quote] [I][U]what the actual shit[/U][/I] 180% import tax!?

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52348256][I][U]what the actual shit[/U][/I] 180% import tax!?[/QUOTE] That’s why so many people were buying them, to get around this tax. :mysterysolved:

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;52348256][I][U]what the actual shit[/U][/I] 180% import tax!?[/QUOTE] "In the fall of 2015, the Liberal-led government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field." Seems like denmark is just doing things for the sake of it, right now?

Not just a problem with the import tax being ludicrous. There's also a secondary registration fee applied to the car, based on the value of the car... So what that means is that cheaper, but less ecological cars are "cheap" whereas higher value, but greener, cars like Teslas gets stupidly expensive. The lower fees on electric cars that the ariticle talks about was supposed to balance this out, but they raised them too quickly. In their defense, the government has acknowledged that the growth of electric cars has been severely impacted by this raise, and they have agreed to lower them back to a more sustainable level, for the time being. One solution being proposed by some politicians is to reform this 'value fee', so that it is based on how much the vehicle pollutes rather than the value of it; makes more sense in regards to the national green energy police. Trouble is, it's quite a lucrative fee for the government, so they might not want to reform it based on the finances alone; we might have high taxes, and we are happy to pay them, but no government is going to be popular if they suggestions raising taxes in other areas to allow for a reformed car registration fee.

The problem is many of these high fees and taxes on car sales are supposed to be green taxes and the like, it doesn't really make sense to apply them to Tesla. (I might be wrong.) That said, I've seen a surprising number of Teslas where I live, but only really in the wealthy parts of town.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;52348253]Im wondering if this is due to market saturation or is actually due to the removal of the subsidies. Like, it would have been helpul if the article compared EV sales to ICE sales during the subsidy removal period.[/QUOTE] I can assure you, this is because of removal of subsidies. A hundred percent.

Denmark is in desperate need of reforms when it comes to import taxes. The reason ordinary cars costs so much is because it's supposed to deter people from buying them, but because our transit system is shite, they do it anyways. Now that we have a greener alternative, I do not see why we should tax it so heavily, since it doesn't pollute. There's talks of changing how all of this works, but so far, nothing has come of it. I hope our government figures this one out soon.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52348435]Denmark is in desperate need of reforms when it comes to import taxes. The reason ordinary cars costs so much is because it's supposed to deter people from buying them, but because our transit system is shite, they do it anyways. Now that we have a greener alternative, I do not see why we should tax it so heavily, since it doesn't pollute. There's talks of changing how all of this works, but so far, nothing has come of it. I hope our government figures this one out soon.[/QUOTE] Transport system is shite? It's the best public transport system I've encountered anywhere in Europe by a really long shot. It's just kinda expensive but so is everything out there.

[QUOTE=NitronikALT;52348276]"In the fall of 2015, the Liberal-led government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field." Seems like denmark is just doing things for the sake of it, right now?[/QUOTE] Basically it was because the Liberal Alliance (which was a supporting party at that time, but now part of the coalition government after they had to drop their ultimatum on tax cuts) wanted to lower the registration fee (I'm almost a 100% certain it isn't actually an import tax as the article describes), so they "had" to find the money somewhere, and making it so EVs are no longer exempt from the registration fee meant they could lower it to 150% (it's actually slightly more complex but whatever). Basically it was because of internal politics - Venstre is the largest party (and at that time, the only) in government, but actually only the third largest overall, and they need support from the other liberal parties as well as the Danish People's Party (DF, which is the second largest party, anti-immigration, but fairly left when it comes to fiscal policy) to stay in government. Basically this was (on of) the only concessions Liberal Alliance could get to make it seem like they were getting something from supporting that government. Basically DF's got the government by the balls, and as far as I can tell very little liberal policy is actually getting through. "No one" (yeah well I called it when the shit was dragged through parliament) expected EV sales to plummet as much as they did, and now they're doing a break on phasing it in - which opens the question of how they're the fuck they're funding the cut to registration fee if no EVs are even getting sold. But yeah whatever, this current government is kind of a mess. [editline]12th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52348435]Denmark is in desperate need of reforms when it comes to import taxes. The reason ordinary cars costs so much is because it's supposed to deter people from buying them, but because our transit system is shite, they do it anyways. Now that we have a greener alternative, I do not see why we should tax it so heavily, since it doesn't pollute. There's talks of changing how all of this works, but so far, nothing has come of it. I hope our government figures this one out soon.[/QUOTE] It's expensive but honestly out public transport works as well as any system I've ever used, so I don't really know what you're getting at. I've been using my bike almost exclusively the last three years, but up until then I used almost exclusively public transport. I'm talking of Copenhagen, but still.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52348496]It's expensive but honestly out public transport works as well as any system I've ever used, so I don't really know what you're getting at. I've been using my bike almost exclusively the last three years, but up until then I used almost exclusively public transport. I'm talking of Copenhagen, but still.[/QUOTE] You said it yourself, you don't use it much. But something constantly breaks and delays are unacceptably common. When you can't use public transport reliably, you'll end up with people who will resort to getting their own means of transportation. The new metro system, whenever it might be finished, will hopefully make it easier for people to get around, without all the delays that plague the trains right now.

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52348429]I can assure you, this is because of removal of subsidies. A hundred percent.[/QUOTE] This totally seem based upon statisticts and objective facts.

180% import tax?! The Denmark black market must be thriving with those idiotic rates. now that I think about it, it's probably cheaper to bribe officials to get a high value item into denmark via imports.

[QUOTE=Spetsnaz95;52348596]You said it yourself, you don't use it much. But something constantly breaks and delays are unacceptably common. When you can't use public transport reliably, you'll end up with people who will resort to getting their own means of transportation. The new metro system, whenever it might be finished, will hopefully make it easier for people to get around, without all the delays that plague the trains right now.[/QUOTE] I don't use it because it's healthier to bike and I don't want to spend money if I can avoid it. If I were lazier I'd use public transport. [editline]12th June 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=IQ-Guldfisk;52348685]This totally seem based upon statisticts and objective facts.[/QUOTE] Did the Tesla S suddenly get worse? Is there some great, cheap car that got introduced right at the same time as these changes? I guess you could argue that other cars got cheaper as well and I should've included that, but it's most definitely due to the changes in registration fees. Like, what are you getting at?

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52348934]I don't use it because it's healthier to bike and I don't want to spend money if I can avoid it. If I were lazier I'd use public transport. [editline]12th June 2017[/editline] Did the Tesla S suddenly get worse? Is there some great, cheap car that got introduced right at the same time as these changes? I guess you could argue that other cars got cheaper as well and I should've included that, but it's most definitely due to the changes in registration fees. Like, what are you getting at?[/QUOTE] This guy is right. The tax-break led to people adopting it at insane rates and everyone genuinely thought that this was a purposeful omission from the governments part in order to push clean energy in transportation. Then the left shat everywhere and then sat everyone else down in it to enjoy the fumes. This process of eliminating progress towards positive outcomes has been on the governments' order of business ever since their party got voted in, in 2001. Education, healthcare and elder care has suffered in order for millionaires to get tax cut after tax cut and while everything is burning around them, they go to the far east to fuck kids and burn down hotel rooms on the danish tax-payers dime.

Not that i care about ratings, but why is this rated Winner? Was it because the thread got moved from Polidix, or is there something I fail to see why this is a good thing?

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52349763]Not that i care about ratings, but why is this rated Winner? Was it because the thread got moved from Polidix, or is there something I fail to see why this is a good thing?[/QUOTE] A lot of people just hate Tesla and electric cars in general and refuse to give them a chance, so any blow to them is a good thing in their eyes.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52349763]Not that i care about ratings, but why is this rated Winner? Was it because the thread got moved from Polidix, or is there something I fail to see why this is a good thing?[/QUOTE] petrolheads

$100K cost + 180% import tax... it's not really a mystery

[QUOTE=NitronikALT;52348276]"In the fall of 2015, the Liberal-led government of Prime Minister Lars Lokke Rasmussen announced the progressive phasing out of tax breaks on electric cars, citing budget constraints and the desire to level the playing field." Seems like denmark is just doing things for the sake of it, right now?[/QUOTE] pretty standard conservative bullshit

[QUOTE=GoDong-DK;52348934] Did the Tesla S suddenly get worse? Is there some great, cheap car that got introduced right at the same time as these changes? I guess you could argue that other cars got cheaper as well and I should've included that, but it's most definitely due to the changes in registration fees. Like, what are you getting at?[/QUOTE] All I'm getting at is that there could be more than meets the eye. I totally agree that the tax change is probably a big part of it but smaller things as other cars getting cheaper or that year saw an unusual increase in sales of cars and an unusually low amount of cars were sold this period. Like, it could come down to simple luck. And statements about a single thing being the absolute only reason for something to happen is a bit of a petpeeve of mine. Especially when it's something that happens in a very unpresictable area such as economy, politics or crisises.

Model S starts at the equivalent of $120k for the base model with no options in Denmark. At the end of 2015 when they started phasing out the incentives it was the best selling car in the country. In December 2016 all brands of EVs sold less than Tesla did in one month of 2015. At the same time they did this Denmark's government also dropped the "NOx tax", creating an incentive for diesel cars.

I have seen more and more EV's on the road than ever before, even my dad has driven one at work, seems to mostly be municipal/public services that use them, just a few days ago I had some really angry woman in my back who honked at me because I had not heard her car creep up on me, thought it was an old man on a mobility scooter from the sound of it. Surprised about reading it here, not surprised on our government being terrible as usual, though.

I disagree with subsidies for electric cars on the basis that most electric cars are boutique toys for rich kids; it's not in the public interest to subsidise cars made for millionaires, especially considering that many of those buyers would have probably been able to afford such cars without the subsidies anyways. Now of course, there are upcoming electric cars which are more-affordable and targeted at the wider market, such as the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3. But that's the thing; even without subsidies, those cars should be able to compete with cars such as the Audi A4 and the BMW 3 series. It's the imperative of the automakers to make the luxury of an electric car affordable, not governments. And hey, Tesla and GM seem to be doing just that. As for why Denmark has such a high duty on cars, well in concern for the environment, it makes sense. Sure, electric cars may not directly pump out carbon dioxide or particulate matter into the atmosphere, but they are incredibly taxing on the environment to produce. In a country as small and with as concentrated of a population as Denmark, it makes the most sense, regarding the environment, to encourage people to use utilise public transport. Buses, trains etc may be more taxing on the environment to produce than individual cars, and ICE-powered public transport (not a necessity for public transport; it can be electric as well) may spew out more greenhouse gases than electric cars, but the sheer economies of scale in both production and running of public transport are ultimately better for the environment. Electric cars were never the be-all-end-all for a green society.

[QUOTE=BF;52351759]I disagree with subsidies for electric cars on the basis that most electric cars are boutique toys for rich kids; it's not in the public interest to subsidise cars made for millionaires, especially considering that many of those buyers would have probably been able to afford such cars without the subsidies anyways. Now of course, there are upcoming electric cars which are more-affordable and targeted at the wider market, such as the Chevy Bolt and Tesla Model 3. But that's the thing; even without subsidies, those cars should be able to compete with cars such as the Audi A4 and the BMW 3 series. It's the imperative of the automakers to make the luxury of an electric car affordable, not governments. And hey, Tesla and GM seem to be doing just that. As for why Denmark has such a high duty on cars, well in concern for the environment, it makes sense. Sure, electric cars may not directly pump out carbon dioxide or particulate matter into the atmosphere, but they are incredibly taxing on the environment to produce. In a country as small and with as concentrated of a population as Denmark, it makes the most sense, regarding the environment, to encourage people to use utilise public transport. Buses, trains etc may be more taxing on the environment to produce than individual cars, and ICE-powered public transport (not a necessity for public transport; it can be electric as well) may spew out more greenhouse gases than electric cars, but the sheer economies of scale in both production and running of public transport are ultimately better for the environment. Electric cars were never the be-all-end-all for a green society.[/QUOTE] EVs have incentives for the government as well, such as decreased health care costs from treating people with lung issues. Maybe you should advocate for a cap on incentives based on rrp instead? While public transport is the best option, the point of EV incentives is to encourage people to buy an EV over an ICE rather than an EV instead of public transport.

[QUOTE=Morgen;52351834]EVs have incentives for the government as well, such as decreased health care costs from treating people with lung issues. Maybe you should advocate for a cap on incentives based on rrp instead? While public transport is the best option, the point of EV incentives is to encourage people to buy an EV over an ICE rather than an EV instead of public transport.[/QUOTE] That incentive for public health isn't exclusive for just electric cars, and is why governments have been advocating that people ride bikes or catch public transport well before electric cars were viable. And based on current trends in the market (environmental consciousness etc), tightening emissions standards, and manufacturers figuring out how to make electric cars at a lower cost than ever before, electric cars are going to replace ICE cars anyways, regardless of whether subsidies for electric cars exist or not. Point is, subsidies for electric cars are just a waste of taxpayer money. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by a cap on incentives based on RRP. If you mean subsidies that are proportional to the price of a car, eg government covering 20% of the cost, that would hardly be effective; the more expensive the car is, the more cash that the government throws at it. Won't make an awful amount of difference for cheaper cars; the cars that most people would buy, but would save a millionaire a hell of a lot of money when they go and buy the latest boutique electric car, like a Tesla Model S. If there absolutely has to be subsidies for electric cars, it should be something simple like a flat $2,000 cash rebate for qualifying vehicles.

[QUOTE=BF;52351886]That incentive for public health isn't exclusive for just electric cars, and is why governments have been advocating that people ride bikes or catch public transport well before electric cars were viable. And based on current trends in the market (environmental consciousness etc), tightening emissions standards, and manufacturers figuring out how to make electric cars at a lower cost than ever before, electric cars are going to replace ICE cars anyways, regardless of whether subsidies for electric cars exist or not. Point is, subsidies for electric cars are just a waste of taxpayer money. I'm not sure what exactly you mean by a cap on incentives based on RRP. If you mean subsidies that are proportional to the price of a car, eg government covering 20% of the cost, that would hardly be effective; the more expensive the car is, the more cash that the government throws at it. Won't make an awful amount of difference for cheaper cars; the cars that most people would buy, but would save a millionaire a hell of a lot of money when they go and buy the latest boutique electric car, like a Tesla Model S. If there absolutely has to be subsidies for electric cars, it should be something simple like a flat $2,000 cash rebate for qualifying vehicles.[/QUOTE] By a cap based on rrp I meant if the manufacturers recommended retail price is above a certain point then incentives stop applying. EVs will replace everything even without incentives but incentives will speed up the process.

[QUOTE=chipsnapper2;52348266]That’s why so many people were buying them, to get around this tax. :mysterysolved:[/QUOTE] i wouldnt say to get around the tax, more that the tax is incentive to import an ev.

Electric cars are one of the only times subsidies are a great idea tbh. Fighting negative externalities is good shit.