Tesla factory workers reveal pain, injury and stress; Musk defends workplace - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE]Ambulances have been called more than 100 times since 2014 for workers experiencing fainting spells, dizziness, seizures, abnormal breathing and chest pains, according to incident reports obtained by the Guardian. Hundreds more were called for injuries and other medical issues. In a phone interview about the conditions at the factory, which employs about 10,000 workers, the Tesla CEO conceded his workers had been “having a hard time, working long hours, and on hard jobs”, but said he cared deeply about their health and wellbeing. His company says its factory safety record has significantly improved over the last year. Musk also said that Tesla should not be compared to major US carmakers and that its market capitalization, now more than $50bn, is unwarranted. “I do believe this market cap is higher than we have any right to deserve,” he said, pointing out his company produces just 1% of GM’s total output. “We’re a money-losing company,” Musk added. “This is not some situation where, for example, we are just greedy capitalists who decided to skimp on safety in order to have more profits and dividends and that kind of thing. It’s just a question of how much money we lose. And how do we survive? How do we not die and have everyone lose their jobs?” ... He was one of several workers who said they had seen co-workers collapse or be taken away in ambulances. “We had an associate on my line, he just kept working, kept working, kept working, next thing you know – he just fell on the ground,” said Mikey Catura, a worker on the battery pack line. Richard Ortiz, another production worker, spoke admiringly of the high-tech shop floor. “It’s like you died and went to auto-worker heaven.” But he added: “Everything feels like the future but us.” ... Now Sanchez has two herniated discs in his neck, is on disability leave from work, and can no longer grip a pencil without pain. Tesla said that the employee’s injury occurred while he was installing a wheel, but Sanchez said it was caused by the years he spent working on Tesla’s assembly line. The cars he worked on were suspended above the line, and his job required looking up and working with his hands above his head all day. ... Tesla’s manufacturing practices appear to have been most dangerous in its earliest years of operations. The company does not dispute that its recordable incident rate (TRIR), an official measure of injuries and illnesses that is reported to workplace safety regulators, was above the industry average between 2013 and 2016. Tesla declined to release data over those four years, saying such information “doesn’t reflect how the factory operates today”. The company did release more recent data, which indicates its record of safety incidents went from slightly above the industry average in late 2016, to a performance in the first few months of 2017 that was 32% better than average. The company said that its decision to add a third shift, introduce a dedicated team of ergonomics experts, and improvements to the factory’s “safety teams” account for the significant reduction in incidents since last year. Musk said safety was paramount at the company. “It’s incredibly hurtful, and, I think, false for anyone to claim that I don’t care.” The CEO said his desk was “in the worst place in the factory, the most painful place”, in keeping with his management philosophy. “It’s not some comfortable corner office.” In early 2016, he said, he slept on the factory floor in a sleeping bag “to make it the most painful thing possible”. “I knew people were having a hard time, working long hours, and on hard jobs. I wanted to work harder than they did, to put even more hours in,” he said. “Because that’s what I think a manager should do.” ... Tesla argues the challenge in building vehicles from scratch with new production and manufacturing methods should not be underestimated, but that “nothing is more important” than protecting the health and safety of its workers. “We’re trying to do good for the world and we believe in doing the right thing,” Musk said. “And that extends to caring about the health and safety of everyone at the company.” [/QUOTE] [url]https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/18/tesla-workers-factory-conditions-elon-musk?[/url]

It's possible that in Musk's mind the poor treatment of his employees is probably worth it if the end result is edging closer to no more gas vehicles polluting the planet.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52245964]It's possible that in Musk's mind the poor treatment of his employees is probably worth it if the end result is edging closer to no more gas vehicles polluting the planet.[/QUOTE] A future built on the pain and misery of others. Sounds like we've made a lot of progress, right

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52245964]It's possible that in Musk's mind the poor treatment of his employees is probably worth it if the end result is edging closer to no more gas vehicles polluting the planet.[/QUOTE] musk can fuck himself if that is the case

[quote]The company did release more recent data, which indicates its record of safety incidents went from slightly above the industry average in late 2016, to a performance in the first few months of 2017 that was 32% better than average. The company said that its decision to add a third shift, introduce a dedicated team of ergonomics experts, and improvements to the factory’s “safety teams” account for the significant reduction in incidents since last year.[/quote] Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52245964]It's possible that in Musk's mind the poor treatment of his employees is probably worth it if the end result is edging closer to no more gas vehicles polluting the planet.[/QUOTE] If you read it, it seems like he doesn't like the conditions and has worked to improve things quite a bit over the last year.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;52245964]It's possible that in Musk's mind the poor treatment of his employees is probably worth it if the end result is edging closer to no more gas vehicles polluting the planet.[/QUOTE] Why the hell is this getting dumbvoted? [QUOTE]If you read it, it seems like he doesn't like the conditions and has worked to improve things quite a bit over the last year. [/QUOTE] May I ask how? [editline]18th May 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246052]Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).[/QUOTE] Now this is a nice explanation

I'm not personally aware of the specific measures Musk is taking to improve conditions in the plants but evidently they're working - 32% fewer incidents than the industry average so far in 2017 is very good, especially when you consider what a dramatic swing it is from last year. I'm looking forward to Morgen's post since I'm sure he knows way more about the details than I'd be able to find even by googling.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246052]Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).[/QUOTE] So they were too new to talk to OSHA or other safety organizations that have been studying and implementing regulations and guidelines to stop these types of injuries for decades? This isn't 1900. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that a bad safety record is excusable with all the resources available to companies today.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246052]Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).[/QUOTE] Its also worth noting that, when the big three were startups, American Society didnt really care all that much about worker safety. Turn of the 20th US auto factories were deathtraps, to say the least.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246117]So they were too new to talk to OSHA or other safety organizations that have been studying and implementing regulations and guidelines to stop these types of injuries for decades? This isn't 1900. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that a bad safety record is excusable with all the resources available to companies today.[/QUOTE] There are General Motors plants where the managers have only changed 4 times since the company's inception. That's sometimes 30-40 years of experience per manager. Tesla just doesn't have that edge; the kind of knowledge those guys have isn't written down in some "Factory Safety for Dummies" kind of book anywhere, it's just learned from experience and passed down over time to your second and third who also have years of experience long before they get the big hat. Federal safety standards exist, yes, but even those barely cover anything, as much as they may even seem excessive at times, and even if you're doing everything right, you can't really help it if George, in spite of the safety briefings, decides he can move that battery pack without help and blows out his back. I have worked in fully OSHA-compliant warehouses. All the OSHA standards in the world can't save you from accidentally walking off a loading dock (which is easier than you might think) or overexerting yourself trying to move something that ends up being much heavier than it looks and so on. There are tons and tons of hidden dangers in industrial zones and federal safety standards are more concerned about having yellow stripes on stairs than innovating new ways to prevent forklifts from accidentally rolling too close to the edge of the dock. Coming from something that sounds as simple as a warehouse ("How dangerous can a warehouse be?"), I can't imagine how much more chaotic things would get in an automotive factory. The other thing is often if you aren't sure you don't want to ask a federal agency for advice, since they like to throat fuck you instead of being helpful. I know you're a gun guy - so ask yourself this: if you thought you might be in violation of NFA '34, would you call the ATF for advice? If you think you might have a breach of OSHA regulations, you're not going to contact OSHA for help, because they'll shut down your floor.

[QUOTE=Cutthecrap;52246086]Why the hell is this getting dumbvoted?[/QUOTE] Probably because that's a dumb way to make progress.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246147]There are General Motors plants where the managers have only changed 4 times since the company's inception. That's 30-40 years of experience per manager. Tesla just doesn't have that edge; that kind of learned knowledge isn't written down in some "Factory Safety for Dummies" kind of book anywhere, it's just learned from experience and passed down over time to your second and third who also have years of experience long before they get the big hat. Federal safety standards exist, yes, but even those barely cover anything, as much as they may even seem excessive at times, and even if you're doing everything right, you can't really help it if George, in spite of the safety briefings, decides he can move that battery pack without help and blows out his back. I have worked in fully OSHA-compliant warehouses. All the OSHA standards in the world can't save you from accidentally walking off a loading dock (which is easier than you might think) or overexerting yourself trying to move something that ends up being much heavier than it looks and so on. There are tons and tons of hidden dangers in industrial zones and federal safety standards are more concerned about having yellow stripes on stairs. Coming from something that sounds as simple as a warehouse, I can't imagine how much more chaotic an automotive factory would be.[/QUOTE] And coming from the construction industry, there ARE OSHA [B][U]GUIDELINES[/U][/B] (not the same as federal regulations) about all of this, including how to reduce and stop repetitive motion injuries, as well as all other types of injuries. We hear about them every week. Your jobsite safety and accident prevention is only as good as the environment you foster. And as a gun guy, I would check if the gun was compliant before I bought it, and turn it in if it wasn't. They aren't going to ream you for an honest mistake.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246164]And coming from the construction industry, there ARE OSHA [B][U]GUIDELINES[/U][/B] (not the same as federal regulations) about all of this, including how to reduce and stop repetitive motion injuries, as well as all other types of injuries. We hear about them every week. Your jobsite safety and accident prevention is only as good as the environment you foster.[/QUOTE] Yeah, and Tesla does frequent safety briefs. You can't force workers to absorb the briefs. They either do or they don't, it's up to them. If Tesla wasn't doing sufficient safety briefs, the factory would be shut down after the first injury that occurred as a result. They are obviously in compliance or the factories wouldn't be running. The question is why their accident rate was still higher; the answer is that they don't have the nuanced management experience of the larger, more established companies that have been operating for over a century which set the averages.

[QUOTE=T553412;52246035]A future built on the pain and misery of others. Sounds like we've made a lot of progress, right[/QUOTE] Original American Railroad.

[QUOTE]Musk said safety was paramount at the company. “It’s incredibly hurtful, and, I think, false for anyone to claim that I don’t care.” The CEO said his desk was “in the worst place in the factory, the most painful place”, in keeping with his management philosophy. “It’s not some comfortable corner office.” In early 2016, he said, he slept on the factory floor in a sleeping bag “to make it the most painful thing possible”. “I knew people were having a hard time, working long hours, and on hard jobs. I wanted to work harder than they did, to put even more hours in,” he said. “Because that’s what I think a manager should do.”[/QUOTE] This at least means he's not a total hypocrite. I can respect that while still disagreeing with the issues. He does seem legitimately concerned about improving their safety standards though. With something as complex as an entire assembly line for what's new technology it's to be expected that it would take some time to work out all the kinks. Sucks that people do get injured but as long as Tesla doesn't shit all over those who get injured and takes care of them properly while actively working to improve working conditions I don't see an enormous issue in the long run.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246168]Yeah, and Tesla does frequent safety briefs. You can't force workers to absorb the briefs. They either do or they don't, it's up to them. If Tesla wasn't doing sufficient safety briefs, the factory would be shut down after the first injury that occurred as a result. They are obviously in compliance or the factories wouldn't be running. The question is why their accident rate was still higher; the answer is that they don't have the nuanced management experience of the larger, more established companies that have been operating for over a century which set the averages.[/QUOTE] You can force workers to absorb safety briefs. Any hint of a safety violation out here is an automatic one way walk to the gate. People eat, sleep, and breathe safety when their job is on the line. The bottom line is that your safety record is only going to be as strong as the safety culture you create. Following safety regulations doesn't mean you're doing everything you can to promote a safe work environment.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246287]You can force workers to absorb safety briefs. Any hint of a safety violation out here is an automatic one way walk to the gate. People eat, sleep, and breathe safety when their job is on the line. The bottom line is that your safety record is only going to be as strong as the safety culture you create. Following safety regulations doesn't mean you're doing everything you can to promote a safe work environment.[/QUOTE] "Tesla factory worker fired after minor injury; reveals workers 'fear for jobs' due to pervasive 'safety cult'" Everything will be spun. There is an ongoing smear campaign against Tesla. They are a young company going through the same growing pains as every other new manufacturing startup and their current statistics are really, really good.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246287]Following safety regulations doesn't mean you're doing everything you can to promote a safe work environment.[/QUOTE] This is exactly [I]why[/I] it is taking time for their injury rates to improve. You can follow the regulations all you want but those are wide-reaching generalizations. You have to gear your internal regulations towards the caveats that those guidelines don't cover. Something you can't do much about without having people working the assembly lines so you can see where things need to be improved.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246052]Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).[/QUOTE] You can't compare 100 year old companies with Tesla at all though. You certainly didn't have the tech of today to make things easier, the knowledge in ergonomics and safety, resources, and so on and so forth. Working at Bosch has showed me that if there is anyone at all that cares about his/her workers, that person will fight tooth and nails for better working conditions, be it standard safety, or even tools to make heavier tasks easier and less prone to giving people something like back pain. That being said... Things don't happen over night. You can't complain that shit is fucked, and the next day it will all be fixed. If Tesla managed to change that, hats off to them for being a ludicrously good company to work at, but that takes time no matter how much you push towards it. Theres a whole lot of people to complain to.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246101]I'm not personally aware of the specific measures Musk is taking to improve conditions in the plants but evidently they're working - 32% fewer incidents than the industry average so far in 2017 is very good, especially when you consider what a dramatic swing it is from last year. I'm looking forward to Morgen's post since I'm sure he knows way more about the details than I'd be able to find even by googling.[/QUOTE] The biggest thing is ergonomics. Most of the injuries aren't obvious dumb stuff like someone sticking their hand in a stamping machine or whatever. Most of the injuries are ergonomic related, and are incurred from things that you might not immediately think of. Model 3 was designed with this in mind after they learned a lot from the X and S, and changes are slowly moving over to the X and S production line as well. Having to bend down or whatever 3 times per vehicle on the line when 800 vehicles go through on your shift results in you bending down 4,800 times per shift, 24,000 times a week, over a million times a year. Tesla is reworking how they build their cars with ergonomic experts to avoid these issues, they likely have built up some patterns now and will have noted that certain areas of the line are encountering these injuries more than others, so they are tackling the worst offenders head on. Obviously adding a third shift was a big factor as well, since that cuts it down significantly as well. They have a long way to go still but they are working on it.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246168]Yeah, and Tesla does frequent safety briefs. You can't force workers to absorb the briefs. They either do or they don't, it's up to them. If Tesla wasn't doing sufficient safety briefs, the factory would be shut down after the first injury that occurred as a result. They are obviously in compliance or the factories wouldn't be running. The question is why their accident rate was still higher; the answer is that they don't have the nuanced management experience of the larger, more established companies that have been operating for over a century which set the averages.[/QUOTE] At my last job, we were doing a ridiculous run of duct to cool a single motor on the top floor of a drying facility for the local cheese plant. Due to the heights involved, this would require use of scaffolds. Before we would even be allowed on the job, we were required by the plant (which has a "if you're more than 3 feet off the ground you MUST wear a harness" rule, they're THAT anal about safety) to watch several hours of scaffold safety videos. So we did. One of the things every single video mentioned was that you never, EVER, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES tie your harness to the scaffold. We get to the job, and there's nowhere to tie our harness. Bring it up with the boss, he says "Just tie it to the scaffold, bud". :wideeye: Bring it up with the plant maintenance director, he says not to worry about it, just be safe. (40 feet in the air on scaffolds handling sheet metal and all) :speechless: So yeah, just because a company is briefed, doesn't mean it's being applied. Many companies (not saying Tesla in particular, but it DOES happen) have you watch the videos/attend the meetings just so if something goes wrong they're not held liable because they made you watch the videos/attend the meetings.

With how much Tesla is trying to push things like automation, I'm actually surprised they have actual people working on their assembly lines instead of robots. While the circumstances aren't ideal (to be honest, what auto assembly line is?), it's at least nice to know that Musk seems to care a lot about his employees to the point where he's actually trying to improve things despite operating a business that will continue to lose money for awhile.

[QUOTE=Rahu X;52247544]With how much Tesla is trying to push things like automation, I'm actually surprised they have actual people working on their assembly lines instead of robots. While the circumstances aren't ideal (to be honest, what auto assembly line is?), it's at least nice to know that Musk seems to care a lot about his employees to the point where he's actually trying to improve things despite operating a business that will continue to lose money for awhile.[/QUOTE] Tesla makes use of a lot of robots but I'm not sure if their production lines are anymore automated than other car makers.

[QUOTE=Rahu X;52247544]While the circumstances aren't ideal (to be honest, what auto assembly line is?), it's at least nice to know that Musk seems to care a lot about his employees to the point where he's actually trying to improve things despite operating a business that will continue to lose money for awhile.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say that compassion is the only reason; if he were truly compassionate, these wouldn't have been issues in the first place. It's more likely that they realised there would be a huge risk if their OHS standards were sub-par, opening them up to lawsuits if employees became significantly injured. That could cost the company money and therefore cause shareholders to minimise losses by divesting from Tesla, so it's more that they are protecting shareholders than anyone else.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246117]So they were too new to talk to OSHA or other safety organizations that have been studying and implementing regulations and guidelines to stop these types of injuries for decades? This isn't 1900. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that a bad safety record is excusable with all the resources available to companies today.[/QUOTE] You're living in a daydream if you think any workplace isn't going to have accidents. What matters is if safety issues are being addressed which clearly they are. I was a safety officer for some time, one thing I can tell you is you can do constant prevention, training, and hold people accountable and there will still be accidents. Some are caused by stupid choices, some are caused by factors you were not aware off until the accident. The place I worked at never had an accident because of neglect. OSHA rules are not some magic thing that prevents all accidents. I've had facilities are in 100 percent compliance with OSHA regulations and accidents still happen. Tesla is a new company and there has been a very clear smear campaign against them, unions are trying to get their hand into Tesla for a while. To me this is very clearly an attack. What matters is if accidents are happening that they're being addressed and everything is being done to prevent it. Go look at other manufacturing centers or companies in a similar field and see what their accident rates are. I'm sure they're similar or worse.

[QUOTE=OvB;52247586]Tesla makes use of a lot of robots but I'm not sure if their production lines are anymore automated than other car makers.[/QUOTE] This is one of the best videos I know of on the Model S manufacturing process, it's not as automated as you might think in some areas. [video]https://youtu.be/AVCCroN7vS0[/video]

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52246052]Understand something: industry averages are what they are because the majority of major players in the industry are 100+ year old companies that have had a long time to figure their shit out. Tesla as a company is brand new, the plants are brand new, the approach is brand new, the management is brand new, everything is brand new. Tesla is not a new branch of an ancient company like Ford, which has had 114 years to smooth out its workflow (GM: 109 years, Dodge: [I]117 years[/I]). If you think the slightly higher than average incident rate in 2016 was bad you should look at the current major manufacturers' statistics when [I]they[/I] were startups. Sorry, but this isn't going to be what makes me go "yes, Elon Musk is evil and Tesla sacrifices their workers to the future gods" and if it does it for any of you, well, you need to formulate a better grasp on working conditions in this industry. Tesla is a startup that is always looking for ways to improve. It doesn't make sense to assume that it knowingly endangers its workers or allows them to work themselves to the point of injury because even if you discount ethics entirely and assume Tesla is run by a calculator, it's not cost effective to injure your workers, especially when your profit margins are so narrow already (or nonexistent as the case may be).[/QUOTE] Well, playing devil's advocate here, Grenadiac, a question. Companies aren't people, and don't learn exactly like people. They're a sum of all their parts. Could one not make the argument that Tesla dropped the ball by not hiring experienced organizational planners and managers early on (or as soon as they had the means to)? Those other companies that have been around for over a hundred years don't in the least prevent their experienced employees from seeking new employment, after all.

[QUOTE=Silence I Kill You;52246117]So they were too new to talk to OSHA or other safety organizations that have been studying and implementing regulations and guidelines to stop these types of injuries for decades? This isn't 1900. I'm sorry, but you're not going to convince me that a bad safety record is excusable with all the resources available to companies today.[/QUOTE] OSHA standards tell you how to safely operate a crane or build a wood ladder, but not the proper height for wheel installation. OSHA isnt the end all be all of safety and technique.

[QUOTE=archangel125;52255675]Well, playing devil's advocate here, Grenadiac, a question. Companies aren't people, and don't learn exactly like people. They're a sum of all their parts. Could one not make the argument that Tesla dropped the ball by not hiring experienced organizational planners and managers early on (or as soon as they had the means to)? Those other companies that have been around for over a hundred years don't in the least prevent their experienced employees from seeking new employment, after all.[/QUOTE] I'd argue that they probably actually couldn't. From what I know it's not a part of the industry with a ton of room for expansion so there's not huge demand in general meaning that those experienced people are already going to be employed and probably difficult to headhunt.