Belgian burqa ban upheld by European Court of Justice - Sensationalist Headlines

[QUOTE]Belgium’s ban on burqas and other full-face Islamic veils has been upheld by the European Court of Human Rights.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]She argued that the move infringed her right to wear the niqab guaranteed under the European Convention on Human Rights, with no “legitimate aim”.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]The court found there had been no violation of her right to private life, freedom of religion or discrimination laws, but that Belgium had infringed her right of access to a court when the Conseil d’État ruled an initial application to annul the ban inadmissible.[/QUOTE] [URL]http://uk.businessinsider.com/belgiums-ban-on-burqas-and-full-face-islamic-veils-has-been-upheld-2017-7[/URL] [URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/belgium-burqa-ban-upheld-european-court-of-human-rights-dakir-v-full-face-islamic-veils-headscarf-a7835156.html[/URL]

Good. From what I know, wearing burqas and face-covering veils is not a strict requirement, any head cover is sufficient for women.

Didn't ISIS itself at some point ban full-face burqas due to security reasons? Veiled assassins were masquerading as women and performing hits on ISIS commanders/officials or something along those lines?

[QUOTE=just-a-boy;52460691]Didn't ISIS itself at some point ban full-face burqas due to security reasons? Veiled assassins were masquerading as women and performing hits on ISIS commanders/officials or something along those lines?[/QUOTE] ...and then using it to flee undetected from areas that were recaptured by the Iraqi armed forces.

Im personally still not sure if the burqa is a sign of oppression or one of religious freedom. Does the Quoran literally say that married women have to wear one? Or was this thought up 1000 years ago, by Muslim men that found it to be a useful tool to keep competitors off their womens backs? And after a while it just became part of the religion. [editline]12th July 2017[/editline] Apparently the koran says nothing about covering the face: [I]For women: Cover your chest (24:31); Lengthen your garments (33:59) and for both sexes; The BEST garment is righteousness and modest conduct (7:26). [/I]However, some other verses in the Quoran mention something that is often wrongly translated to a Veil which could be the cause of the idea that women should cover their face. [URL]http://www.quran-islam.org/articles/part_3/the_burqa_(P1357).html[/URL]

[QUOTE=taipan;52461136]Im personally still not sure if the burqa is a sign of oppression or one of religious freedom. Does the Koran literally say that married women have to wear one? Or was this thought up 1000 years ago, by Muslim men that found it to be a useful tool to keep competitors off their womens backs? And after a while it just became part of the religion. [editline]12th July 2017[/editline] Apparently the koran says nothing about covering the face.[/QUOTE] The quran says to dress modestly

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;52460660]Good. From what I know, wearing burqas and face-covering veils is not a strict requirement, any head cover is sufficient for women.[/QUOTE] What is required by the Koran is that women be "modest". What that means is open to interpretation. The burqas and head coverings have their origins in pre-Islamic middle eastern nations.

[QUOTE=Coffee;52461146]The quran says to dress modestly[/QUOTE] Quoran verses: [I]For women: Cover your chest (24:31); Lengthen your garments (33:59) and for both sexes; The BEST garment is righteousness and modest conduct (7:26).[/I] [I][24:31] And tell the believing women to subdue their eyes, and maintain their chastity. They shall not reveal any parts of their bodies, except that which is apparent. They shall cover their chests with their ‘khimar’.[/I] [I] 2:256 There shall be no compulsion in religion: the right way is now distinct from the wrong way. Anyone who denounces the devil and believes in God has grasped the strongest bond; one that never breaks. God is Hearer, Omniscient. [/I]The word Burqua is found nowhere in the Quoran. [B]But:[/B] Like most religious text, it seems to be a contradictory mess, wrongly translated and interpreted a thousand times and then mixed with the agenda's of thousand's of years of influential people and the church.

[QUOTE=taipan;52461136]Im personally still not sure if the burqa is a sign of oppression or one of religious freedom.[/QUOTE] Nothing stops it from being both. When a religious custom is oppressive towards somebody, people who use religious freedom to practice it oppress themselves.

[QUOTE=Laserbeams;52461167]Nothing stops it from being both. When a religious custom is oppressive towards somebody, people who use religious freedom to practice it oppress themselves.[/QUOTE] But if its their own will, shouldn't we let them oppress themselves? I mean, if you want to wear a pink afro with a clowns nose you are free to do it as well. Which leads to the great question whether or note Muslim women wearing a burqua are pressured or brainwashed into oppressing themselves with one. Or if they actually want to wear it.

[QUOTE=taipan;52461215]But if its their own will, shouldn't we let them oppress themselves? I mean, if you want to wear a pink afro with a clowns nose you are free to do it as well. Which leads to the great question whether or note Muslim women wearing a burqua are pressured or brainwashed into oppressing themselves with one. Or if they actually want to wear it.[/QUOTE] Sure we should. Especially if it's one of those head scarf things rather than the thing that covers your whole face. It's not really that oppressive, and muslim males often wear some sort of turban or beanie for religious purposes as well. But if they are actually being forced to wear the headdresses, then we have a big problem, since it's very much the opposite of religious freedom and freedom of expression, and such things should be dealt with very severely.

[QUOTE=taipan;52461215]But if its their own will, shouldn't we let them oppress themselves? I mean, if you want to wear a pink afro with a clowns nose you are free to do it as well. Which leads to the great question whether or note Muslim women wearing a burqua are pressured or brainwashed into oppressing themselves with one. Or if they actually want to wear it.[/QUOTE] It's a little more nuanced than "either free will, or brainwashed". This isn't some great mystery either. It's just down to social norms

I had no idea Belgium was doing this, interesting.

From a religious standpoint I don't think it's a huge deal so long as it is voluntary. However I don't like the idea of people walking around with obscured identities.

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52461346]However I don't like the idea of people walking around with obscured identities.[/QUOTE] When there's a safety vs. freedom issue, I tend to lean towards the freedom side of things. Don't really see why I shouldn't here

It isn't oppressing if they voluntary want to wear them. As a former muslim from morocco, it's more of a cultural thing. Morocco is bit more westernized compared to other arab countries but a lot of women view them as freedom from beauty standards and stuff like that other then something they must do to please their gods. This are definitely cases wear some muslim women ARE forced to cover themselves but it isnt practiced by muslims as whole just a minority of controlling douchebags. Theres typical lots of reasons why muslims want to wear it. They are not brainwashed sex slaves like the media and french like to make it out to be. You are not "liberating" muslim women by telling them what not to wear. You are oppressing them due to ignorance of their faith practices. These types of laws are nothing more but suger-coated islamophobia. Otherwise why ain't hats, sunglasses, wigs and various other types of headcoverings ain't banned as well?

[QUOTE=Trebgarta;52461364]If this were about security they could have made their case as such - not referencing burka, just obscuring identity in general. This is a plain ban.[/QUOTE] Oh yeah I'm not agreeing with singling out the Burqa. If I ran a business I wouldn't want people walking in with balaclavas or motorbike helmets, same with the burqa. The issue I have is not a religious thing but I'm not a fan of anything that obscures identities regardless of it's form

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52461418]Oh yeah I'm not agreeing with singling out the Burqa. If I ran a business I wouldn't want people walking in with balaclavas or motorbike helmets, same with the burqa. The issue I have is not a religious thing but I'm not a fan of anything that obscures identities regardless of it's form[/QUOTE] "Okay you ready? Theres no security guard it appears. All we have to do is walk the bank and wave our illegally owned firearms and we will walk out with the cash. Now put on this mask an-" "Are you out of your mind?! We can't rob the bank with those skimasks. That's illegal!" "Oh right. Silly me. Lets just go home then"

[QUOTE=Sky King;52461428]"Okay you ready? Theres no security guard it appears. All we have to do is walk the bank and wave our illegally owned firearms and we will walk out with the cash. Now put on this mask an-" "Are you out of your mind?! We can't rob the bank with those skimasks. That's illegal!" "Oh right. Silly me. Lets just go home then"[/QUOTE] Obscuring identity makes it harder to identify and therefore track criminals which is why I'm not ok with people walking in to, say, a petrol station with a motorcycle helmet. Also the reason places like that have signs instructing riders to remove helmets.

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;52461448]Obscuring identity makes it harder to identify and therefore track criminals which is why I'm not ok with people walking in to, say, a petrol station with a motorcycle helmet. Also the reason places like that have signs instructing riders to remove helmets.[/QUOTE] That doesn't mean someone who's already committing a crime is going to see the sign and say "ah, yes, I'm not allowed to obscure my face while committing this crime" and remove whatever's hiding their face.

Hijabs are fine by me

[QUOTE=Sky King;52461405]It isn't oppressing if they voluntary want to wear them. As a former muslim from morocco, it's more of a cultural thing. Morocco is bit more westernized compared to other arab countries but a lot of women view them as freedom from beauty standards and stuff like that other then something they must do to please their gods. This are definitely cases wear some muslim women ARE forced to cover themselves but it isnt practiced by muslims as whole just a minority of controlling douchebags. Theres typical lots of reasons why muslims want to wear it. They are not brainwashed sex slaves like the media and french like to make it out to be. You are not "liberating" muslim women by telling them what not to wear. You are oppressing them due to ignorance of their faith practices. These types of laws are nothing more but suger-coated islamophobia. Otherwise why ain't hats, sunglasses, wigs and various other types of headcoverings ain't banned as well?[/QUOTE] Because the only one out of those examples covering the face are sunglasses and those have a practical purpose. [editline]12th July 2017[/editline] As far as it's been reported in Belgian media this ban is on all full-face veils. Not just the ones used by Islamic people but also the Jewish in Antwerp for example. So it's not just sugar-coated islamophobia.

[QUOTE=rider695;52461616]Because the only one out of those examples covering the face are sunglasses and those have a practical purpose. [editline]12th July 2017[/editline] As far as it's been reported in Belgian media this ban is on all full-face veils. Not just the ones used by Islamic people but also the Jewish in Antwerp for example. So it's not just sugar-coated islamophobia.[/QUOTE] I mean it kinda is when most of the pubic rhetoric surrounding this decision is about the niqab and burqa and not the face veils that the Jewish in Antwerp wear. Just because it affects [I]all[/I] face veils, doesn't mean it isn't quite clear whose face veils they wanted to ban.

[QUOTE=just-a-boy;52460691]Didn't ISIS itself at some point ban full-face burqas due to security reasons? Veiled assassins were masquerading as women and performing hits on ISIS commanders/officials or something along those lines?[/QUOTE] Some North-African countries (in which the burqa is extremely rare, they're much more used to less concealing types of headscarves) have banned the Burqa due to a series of robberies that used them as part of their escape plan. [editline]13th July 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Laserbeams;52461167]Nothing stops it from being both. When a religious custom is oppressive towards somebody, people who use religious freedom to practice it oppress themselves.[/QUOTE] And yet there's an underlying issue in France (and I guess Belgium too) where those issues are deemed oppressive by default and thus outlawed, with no actual consultation of the affected parties. This doesn't stop with the burqa either, at least in France. We've been plagued with the same issue when it comes to prostitution: for some reason the French government decided decades ago that any woman working as a prostitute is automatically, irrevocably a victim and has sought to "protect" them by constantly making their job more difficult, which has garnered immense criticism both from prostitutes and from police forces. The same problem is applicable to "oppressive" customs like the burqa. Back when it was voted for ban in France people protested in the streets because they were offended at the idea that the government would ignore their thoughts and feelings and just label them as victims of oppression.

[QUOTE=Carlito;52462907]I mean it kinda is when most of the pubic rhetoric surrounding this decision is about the niqab and burqa and not the face veils that the Jewish in Antwerp wear. Just because it affects [I]all[/I] face veils, doesn't mean it isn't quite clear whose face veils they wanted to ban.[/QUOTE] It's hugely focused on Islam because an Islamic woman took this case to court.

we shouldn't ban them, their beliefs should be visible to all so people know how to treat them

[QUOTE=Anteep;52465092]we shouldn't ban them, their beliefs should be visible to all so people know how to treat them[/QUOTE] With dignity and respect for the fellow citizen?

[QUOTE=Anteep;52465092]we shouldn't ban them, their beliefs should be visible to all so people know how to treat them[/QUOTE] The fuck do you mean by this?

Burqas are an extreme, hijabs should be the maximum as they are stylish and don't hide the face.

[QUOTE=Grenadiac;52461489]That doesn't mean someone who's already committing a crime is going to see the sign and say "ah, yes, I'm not allowed to obscure my face while committing this crime" and remove whatever's hiding their face.[/QUOTE] What it means is that you only have your self to blame when jumpy store clerk shoots you