Teacher suspended for referring to a transgender pupil as a girl rather than a boy in class - Sensationalist Headlines

[quote]A teacher has been suspended for referring to a transgender boy as a girl during class. Joshua Sutcliffe, 27, could face the sack after the child’s mother complained to the Oxfordshire secondary school where he works. The maths teacher said that he accidentally told the teenager and another pupil “well done girls” when he saw they were working hard. He apologised when the pupil objected but will face a formal disciplinary hearing this week and could face misconduct charges for 'misgendering'. Mr Sutcliffe had also called him by a female pronoun on several other occasions, according the Mail on Sunday.[/quote] [url]https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/teacher-suspended-for-referring-to-a-transgender-pupil-as-a-girl-rather-than-a-boy-in-class-a3689146.html[/url] [quote]The maths teacher, who is also a pastor at the Christ Revelation church in Oxford, said he tried to balance his beliefs with the need to treat the pupil sensitively. He claimed he did this by avoiding the use of gender-specific pronouns and by referring to the pupil by name. "While the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts sharply with my Christian beliefs... I have never looked to impose my convictions on others", he said He said he had apologised to the student, but said he did not consider it "unreasonable" to call someone a girl "if they were born a girl".[/quote] [url]http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-oxfordshire-41966554[/url] Video on the guy [media]https://youtu.be/_9_b49s-xVg[/media]

This is going a bit too far

I mean, if he kept antagonizing her by calling him as a "she", it's definitely not out-of-line to suspend the teacher? The articles say it was a slip of the tongue, but also go on to say that he's done it multiple times before, and he argues that the concept of transgenderism conflicts with his beliefs (which is fine, but this is a school; his religious beliefs should be set aside for the betterment of the children).

[quote]The maths teacher said that he accidentally told the teenager and another pupil “well done girls” when he saw they were working hard.[/quote] This seems a bit ridiculous considering how minor of a slip-up this was.

If you do it on accident and are corrected, so be it. But if you keep doing it and keep repeatedly having to be reminded, especially as someone in a position of authority over this person. This is definitely an issue.

You can deliberately word it as "Was suspended for referring to a transgender student as the wrong gender" if you want to make the kind of people that always crawl out to defend things like this come out in support of how "snowflakey and triggered" they must be to suspend them, but it's massively intellectually dishonest and everyone knows it. Being on the side of reality would see this stated as "Was suspended for bullying transgender student" because that is clearly what this is and anyone that isn't contriving a narrative in which they get to be victims instead of someone who was bullied by a teacher can see that. I'm getting very sick of these insidious little wording changes to create a hostile atmosphere of untruth around stories like these.

This is where the multiple claims comes from [quote]Documents seen by The Mail on Sunday show the investigation also heard uncorroborated claims that Mr Sutcliffe had made several other references to the pupil as a ‘girl’ and had inappropriately discussed religious issues in his maths lessons, which he denies. He said he had raised religious issues such as the anniversary of the Reformation in his general tutor group, in which he encourages older pupils to discuss topical issues in the news, but not during maths classes.[/quote]

I feel like if I had to spend time in charge of a class that had like, one or two trans kids, and the rest were your usual variety, you'd probably catch me slipping up on pronouns or whatever every once in a while just based on attrition, especially over the course of a year or so. I don't think its healthy to teach trans kids that someone who slips and and uses the wrong word to describe them secretly dislikes them and the rest of the trans community. I'd imagine it would happen every now and again, being able to take it in stride without resorting to lawsuits or accusations seems like it'd be necessary.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom.[/QUOTE] This is the source [URL]http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5073511/Teacher-suspended-praising-pupil-using-wrong-gender.html[/URL] , the claim is he admitted to slipping up once and that the daily mail claims there were other slip ups to which he denied. He also denies discussing religious topics during the math class. [quote]He said he had told senior staff carrying out the ‘misgender’ investigation that his private belief was that it was not wrong to call a person born a female a girl, [B]but he would never do that publicly because he was a professional.[/B] [/quote] [QUOTE=The golden;52887935] Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/QUOTE] This isn't forum transphobia, this is an argument of whether someone did something of malicious intent or if it was an accident.

[QUOTE=evilweazel;52887934]I feel like if I had to spend time in charge of a class that had like, one or two trans kids, and the rest were your usual variety, you'd probably catch me slipping up on pronouns or whatever every once in a while just based on attrition, especially over the course of a year or so. I don't think its healthy to teach trans kids that someone who slips and and uses the wrong word to describe them secretly dislikes them and the rest of the trans community. I'd imagine it would happen every now and again, being able to take it in stride without resorting to lawsuits or accusations seems like it'd be necessary.[/QUOTE] The instructor in question commented on an active effort to avoid using any pronouns with the student at all, demonstrating that he was aware. This and him saying referring to the student with respect for their gender identity is against his religious beliefs, indicates a malicious intent.

[QUOTE=bitches;52887946]The instructor in question commented on an active effort to avoid using any pronouns with the student at all, demonstrating that he was aware. This and [B]him saying referring to the student with respect for their gender identity is against his religious beliefs, indicates a malicious intent[/B].[/QUOTE] Not really? You might have a hunch but that doesn't actually indicate malicious intent. It's pretty much impossible to tell his intent in this case, it's pretty natural to have a slip of the tongue like this even if you are aware because most people don't constantly ruminate over the political consequences of pronoun usage when speaking in daily life, they just speak naturally. The fact that he ever made the effort to use gender neutral pronouns or refer specifically to that student by name almost indicates the opposite, that he was trying to abide by their pronouns and be respectful.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom.[/QUOTE] I just thought him getting suspended from his job due to something as trivial as an [i]incorrect pronoun[/i] was a bit absurd. What's more absurd is the fact that the student got offended by this in the first place.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom. Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/QUOTE] Are you seriously pulling the "if you disagree with me, you're a bigot" card?

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom. Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/QUOTE] You literally cannot talk any shit about trans people here without getting banned. How on earth is this forum transphobic? Most sites don't moderate that shit at all.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom. [B]Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/B][/QUOTE] You can't honestly think this is a productive way to go about things. Evidence is too devoid to make such strong admonishments of the guy. Personal leaps of faith and assumptions can be made of course, but those aren't compelling arguments for cases like these.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom. Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/QUOTE] What are you actually on about? Why is everyone here transphobic just because they disagree with your posts? This isn't the first time you've called people out and labeled people as transphobic just because you're trans and they disagreed with you, acting like it's because of who you are and not because of your terrible posting. Nobody is out to get you. Now, that aside, it is quite possible that this was accidental. I have many trans friends, some I've known for nearly 10 years, and sometimes it just slips. One of my friends just has a super girly voice and I sometimes find myself misgendering him on accident, but they aren't offended by it unless it's on purpose, accidents happen. In this case it seems to be that this teacher is trying to pass it off as an accident when it was intentional, it's hard to tell since the last quote was this; [quote]"He said in an interview that it was a genuine mistake but that he thought, as a Christian, referring to someone who was born female as a girl was right."[/quote] It just makes it seem like he was doing it on purpose because it was "right", but at the same time calling it an accident to save face. Then you have this gem; [quote]"While the suggestion that gender is fluid conflicts sharply with my Christian beliefs... I have never looked to impose my convictions on others", he said He said he had apologised to the student, but said he did not consider it "unreasonable" to call someone a girl "if they were born a girl".[/quote] You can't apoligize then immediately say "but I still think I'm right". That makes his whole "genuine mistake" defense fly out the window. He's trying to justify his actions, but also says he made a mistake? I call bullshit.

[QUOTE=_demolisher_;52887872]This is going a bit too far[/QUOTE] he has been suspended to go to a hearing in the next few days, not fired instantly. I don't see anything too over reactive about that, but we may disagree on that point [QUOTE=Killajax;52887905]This seems a bit ridiculous considering how minor of a slip-up this was.[/QUOTE] I am less sure if this is truly a "one slip" thing though. alongside with the post above stating that this is not the only time this happened (though I cannot find a source directly for that), the fact he said he did not consider it "unreasonable" to call someone a girl "if they were born a girl" , as well as the fact that he is a pastor of a church, and hes being represented by the "Christian legal center" all cast further doubt. Yes, conservatives generally are, well, more conservative about these issues, though there are the exceptions. However, the school has been pretty tight lipped, so not much is known, we will have to wait to see. And remember, this guy is teaching kids "between 11 and 18." These are largely teenagers, and Im sure you all know how bullying can be a pretty bad issue at that age, even more so if you are the "odd one," if you are gay/trans/weird/different in any way. In environments like these, I expect teachers to really step out and help protect these kids from being bullied, and if he really didnt believe in this kid's issues, the situation may have gotten worse. Again, right now not much is known, but more will come out later. The situation as of right now, with what is known so far, seems to be handled okay so far.

[QUOTE=da space core;52888051]alongside with the post above stating that this is not the only time this happened (though I cannot find a source directly for that)[/QUOTE] First source: [quote]Mr Sutcliffe had also called him by a female pronoun on several other occasions, according [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5073511/Teacher-suspended-praising-pupil-using-wrong-gender.html]the Mail[/url] on Sunday.[/quote] [editline] oh hamburgers[/editline] Also from the Mail: [quote]He later discovered that the pupil’s family had claimed he had not only ‘misgendered’ the pupil but had unfairly given the pupil a disproportionate number of detentions for poor behaviour, though this later claim was not upheld during the investigation. It is understood that the family’s main concern was that Mr Sutcliffe was picking on their child and they would not have complained about misgendering on its own as they are supporters of free speech. ... ‘I had always tried to respect the pupil and keep a professional attitude as well as my integrity, but it seemed to me that the school was trying to force me to adhere to its liberal, Leftish agenda.’[/quote] I don't remember if the Daily Mail was considered an acceptable source or not, I feel like I've heard they're essentially tabloid trash, but that's what they're reporting at least.

[QUOTE=The golden;52887935]Go back and read the sources. It wasn't a single slip-up and nor is it just some accident. The teacher confessed to it being against his religious beliefs. There isn't anything more to this. He needs to leave his beliefs out of his classroom. Edit: I forgot this forum is transphobic. I'll stop wasting my time here. Cheers all.[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say Transphobic, I'd say the size of shoe is too small for them to get their feet it, but I wouldn't call it strict transphobia, but definite wild ignorance. Either way the dude shouldn't be teaching if he can't adapt to the new world. I don't think he needs sacked yet though, he should think about his line of thinking while he's on suspension. Perhaps we just created a better man by handing him a suspension.

[del]I could understand if the teacher repeatedly did it out of spite but this really just looks like a mistake which the teacher apologised for.[/del] Nope, seems he was doing it deliberately.

[QUOTE=Megadave;52888088]I wouldn't say Transphobic, I'd say the size of shoe is too small for them to get their feet it, but I wouldn't call it strict transphobia, but definite wild ignorance. Either way the dude shouldn't be teaching if he can't adapt to the new world. I don't think he needs sacked yet though, he should think about his line of thinking while he's on suspension. Perhaps we just created a better man by handing him a suspension.[/QUOTE] i don't think suspending and firing people from their jobs over a societal shift that happened fairly recently is going to win over any hearts or minds to the "Transgenderism" movement. Neither is labeling someone on a scale of how transphobic they are because of their beliefs. If someone told me that my upbringing and beliefs were inherently more ignorant than another's, and that I was unqualified to do my job because of it, id tell them to fuck off. People are a little bit more complex than "wrong" and "not wrong" .

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888172]i don't think suspending and firing people from their jobs over a societal shift that happened fairly recently is going to win over any hearts or minds to the "Transgenderism" movement.[/quote] I'd like to point out that he hasn't been fired yet, he's just suspended pending a disciplinary hearing. It's entirely possible he'll get off with a warning. [quote]If someone told me that my upbringing and beliefs were inherently more ignorant than another's, and that I was unqualified to do my job because of it, id tell them to fuck off.[/QUOTE] He isn't being punished because he's a Christian or because of his upbringing. He's being temporarily suspended because he possibly did this intentionally to spite a student.

[QUOTE=iownuall;52888041]What are you actually on about? Why is everyone here transphobic just because they disagree with your posts? This isn't the first time you've called people out and labeled people as transphobic just because you're trans and they disagreed with you, acting like it's because of who you are and not because of your terrible posting. Nobody is out to get you. Now, that aside, it is quite possible that this was accidental. I have many trans friends, some I've known for nearly 10 years, and sometimes it just slips. One of my friends just has a super girly voice and I sometimes find myself misgendering him on accident, but they aren't offended by it unless it's on purpose, accidents happen. In this case it seems to be that this teacher is trying to pass it off as an accident when it was intentional, it's hard to tell since the last quote was this; It just makes it seem like he was doing it on purpose because it was "right", but at the same time calling it an accident to save face. Then you have this gem; You can't apoligize then immediately say "but I still think I'm right". That makes his whole "genuine mistake" defense fly out the window. He's trying to justify his actions, but also says he made a mistake? I call bullshit.[/QUOTE] Or he apologized but is also pointing out how ludicrous it is that he could actually lose his job over calling someone who was born and looks like a girl a girl?

[QUOTE=Paramud;52888185]He isn't being punished because he's a Christian or because of his upbringing. He's being temporarily suspended because he possibly did this intentionally to spite a student.[/QUOTE] but my point is that it sounds like his beliefs are being used as evidence against him for his actions, which could have been entirely accidental. Or not. He's really the only one that knows. But it seems that because of his beliefs and that he vocalized them, there is a propensity to believe that he did it out of spite, which i don't think is entirely fair.

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888229]but my point is that it sounds like his beliefs are being used as evidence against him for his actions, which could have been entirely accidental. Or not. He's really the only one that knows. But it seems that because of his beliefs and that he vocalized them, there is a propensity to believe that he did it out of spite, which i don't think is entirely fair.[/QUOTE] He's the one who raised the issue of his beliefs. You can't just apologize and then add a caveat that, according to your religion, you've done nothing wrong, without people raising their eyebrows. It shows that any time he's used the proper terms with his student, he's only done so because he's required to do so. That doesn't prove that he intentionally misgendered him, but it does show a certain level of contempt that he's not trying to hide. Even with the apology, if and when he returns to teaching, it will be openly known that he thinks transgender kids are full of shit.

[QUOTE=The golden;52888028]it was a shitty post I am sorry. I have had a fucking horrible day. I apologize.[/QUOTE] A saying I really like is: "Always assume ignorance before malice", or something like that. Basically instead of getting instantly mad at people, try to understand what they really meant, to see if it was truly malicious rather than just poor wording.

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888172]i don't think suspending and firing people from their jobs over a societal shift that happened fairly recently is going to win over any hearts or minds to the "Transgenderism" movement. Neither is labeling someone on a scale of how transphobic they are because of their beliefs. If someone told me that my upbringing and beliefs were inherently more ignorant than another's, and that I was unqualified to do my job because of it, id tell them to fuck off. People are a little bit more complex than "wrong" and "not wrong" .[/QUOTE] If your upbringings and beliefs cause you to disrespect your own students then yeah, you reap what you sow.

[QUOTE=srobins;52888223]Or he apologized but is also pointing out how ludicrous it is that he could actually lose his job over calling someone who was born and looks like a girl a girl?[/QUOTE] Let's say you (who I will assume identifies as a man because of the demographics of this site) were in his class at a tender 11 years old. He regularly refers to you as she, despite your insistence that you are a boy. You've had patience and he's been told to do otherwise. He keeps doing so anyway, and is on record as saying it's his beliefs that cause this to keep happening. Would that not feel pretty hostile, even if he's apologized every time? Is the apology genuine if nothing changes after it? This is almost certainly in addition to your peers who may signal you out as a girl, despite your certainty as a man. Is it outrageous that the school takes corrective action so that you feel more accepted? Or should you not be accommodated because you're in the vast minority? There's no clean or easy way to tackle the issue but it's not like after someone hits 25 they can't change. If they have to be more inclusive to keep their job, and the request is as little as staying gender neutral, why not? Maybe when larger demands are made of this teacher I'll take his side.

[QUOTE=Sega Saturn;52888247]He's the one who raised the issue of his beliefs. You can't just apologize and then add a caveat that, according to your religion, you've done nothing wrong, without people raising their eyebrows. It shows that any time he's used the proper terms with his student, he's only done so because he's required to do so. That doesn't prove that he intentionally misgendered him, but it does show a certain level of contempt that he's not trying to hide. Even with the apology, if and when he returns to teaching, it will be openly known that he thinks transgender kids are full of shit.[/QUOTE] I think half my customers are full of shit too, but that doesn't mean i don't know how to exercise self-restraint and tolerance when it comes to shit I don't like. You can be outspoken about your belief but still conduct yourself in a socially acceptable manner. and if my 10 years of private school has taught me anything, its that Christians are very open about their beliefs, whether you like it or not. He's apologized for what he's done, but he still finds it morally against his beliefs. From what he's stated, he's made a genuine effort to accommodate his student despite his upbringing and religion. but he's a Math Teacher, not a Lawyer. Not only that, he was giving out praise for working hard when he made the mistake. what kind of mental gymnastics would you have to go through to both praise someone for their hard work, as well as attempt to belittle someone because of your religious beliefs?

[QUOTE=bob4life;52888293]Not only that, he was giving out praise for working hard when he made the mistake. what kind of mental gymnastics would you have to go through to both praise someone for their hard work, as well as attempt to belittle someone because of your religious beliefs?[/QUOTE] Whether he was or wasn't doing so intentionally isn't the issue. It's him failing to act appropriately in spite of his beliefs and upbringing, which is guaranteed to have had an impact on what he said. Maybe he was genuinely attempting to give praise and had no bad intentions, but he fell flat on the more important part of it. [editline]14th November 2017[/editline] I am unsure how inclined I would be to learn from someone who believes how I identify myself is wrong, and we can truly only speculate what the real nature of their student-teacher relationship was. It just appears the teacher failed to live up to what was asked him to do his job, hopefully he may rectify that.