Todd Rogers, owner of longest-standing gaming record, finally outted as cheater and banned for life - Sensationalist Headlines

[img]https://i.imgur.com/oTKWVNY.jpg[/img] [url]https://kotaku.com/infamous-atari-player-gets-world-record-removed-after-3-1822511777[/url] [quote]In 1982, video game score-chaser Todd Rogers supposedly set a world record time of 5.51 seconds in the Atari 2600 racing game Dragster. Last year, speedrunners called that score into question. After a lengthy arbitration process, Rogers’ score was removed from Twin Galaxies, an organization that tracks video game records and high scores. “Based on the complete body of evidence presented in this official dispute thread, Twin Galaxies administrative staff has unanimously decided to remove all of Todd Rogers’ scores as well as ban him from participating in our competitive leaderboards,” Twin Galaxies’ staff said on their message boards. “The presented software analysis model concluded that achieving score times of less than 5.57 seconds is not possible under standard and normal play conditions.”[/quote] about time lol. also, here's a timeline of events for everyone that wasn't playing along (Note, Todd's been suspected of being a cheater for like, years. This is just the recent stuff that led to his removal): [B]May 14th, 2017[/B] Omnigamer constructs a [url=http://tasvideos.org/5517S.html]TAS[/url] and a [url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HhaBah7e48lBRA18v8Mgr-fRVZS5DUJb_pnOsBTC34c/edit?usp=sharing]spreadsheet[/url] to test if Todd's claimed world-record time of 5.51 on the Atari 2600 game "Dragster" is possible. It is deemed impossible to get anything less than a 5.57 [B]August 11th, 2017[/B] Twin Galaxies' user D.B.Cooper officially files a dispute. Cue 271 pages of arguing for FIVE AND A HALF MONTHS, with people trying to explain away the mountains of evidence using such delightful defenses as the TAS not taking into account the "human element" of the records lol [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/175364-Dispute-Dick-Moreland-Atari-2600-VCS-Dragster-NTSC-Game-1-Difficulty-B-Fastest-Time-Player-Todd-Rogers-Score-05-51[/url] [url=http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/175364-Dispute-Dick-Moreland-Atari-2600-VCS-Dragster-NTSC-Game-1-Difficulty-B-Fastest-Time-Player-Todd-Rogers-Score-05-51?p=914017&viewfull=1#post914017][quote=quote by actual TG user, post 14 in the thread]As far as the TAS, it is just that a tool-assisted speedrun. They do not take the human element into consideration at all. If anyone has played this game for longer than an hour you know that it takes a great amount of skill and timing to play at an elite level.[/quote][/url] [B]November 25th, 2017[/B] Twin Galaxies asks Todd to provide them with the certificate he received from Activision regarding his Dragster score for proof towards the scores authenticity. It totally back-fires when all of 2 hours later people tore into and found that it was not only a blatant fake, but that Todd himself bragged on two occasions in the past about generating his own Activision certificates for people [t]https://i.imgur.com/dzbPYLg.png[/t][t]https://i.imgur.com/WC9rwZf.png[/t][t]https://i.imgur.com/h5BtBZ2.png[/t][t]https://i.imgur.com/m6LsGac.png[/t] [B]January 23rd, 2018[/B] An interview was conducted by TG to the original creator of the Dragster game [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/87/dragster-designer-without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt-about-todd-rogers-record/1[/url] [quote]“I had email discussions with Omnigamer,” Crane added, “who in support of a book he was preparing to publish, did a code analysis to try to determine the best possible score on Dragster. I’m sure you are aware of his work. While he is certain that his analysis is definitive, I would not be so sure, even if I had done the analysis myself. I can’t tell you how many times over a 35 year career making games that I thought I had identified the best and fastest way to play a game, only to be proven wrong by a 14 year old game player who came at it in a unique way.” ... I asked him, point-blank, if he believed in Todd Rogers. Very matter-of-factly, Crane stated, “My position is very simple. The high scores published by Activision in the 1980s were authenticated using the established methods at the time, by the governing authority at the time. I have no doubts, then or now, that Todd Rogers achieved the scores attributed to him, provided the necessary corroborating evidence to support those scores, and earned the right to be named world champion by the accepted validating authority. Sorry that I can’t provide anything more concrete than my opinion.”[/quote] despite not being based around any concrete facts, it ends up becoming one of the most recurring defenses for Todd Roger's record... BUT THEN Apollo_Legend puts out a youtube video summarizing the entire stupid situation while also uncovering the fact that a LOT of Todd's other claimed scores are either ridiculous lies or objectively impossible. Gets over a million views [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8e-H4sEHB54[/media] [B]January 24th, 2018[/B] Under a ridiculous amount of pressure, TG commits to making some sort of resolution by March 1st (even tho the evidence already provided is absolute) [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/entry.php/3472[/url] [B]January 27th, 2018[/B] Goldeneye Speedrunner Karl Jobst puts together a full list of every suspicious or even straight up IMPOSSIBLE score Todd Rogers has claimed [url]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12r8Hi8QuIedNKsyrVIyjw4S8194YtnEiGVZxqEx-b7U/edit#gid=0[/url] [B]January 28th, 2018[/B] With NOBODY left defending Todd by this point, TG changes their stance again and declares they're gonna issue a decision within 48 hours, claiming they've received some more mystery evidence [t]https://i.imgur.com/IYiDADJ.png[/t] [B]January 29th, 2018[/B] Former TG referee RTM is revealed to have been the newest source of evidence, having dug into the entire situation and written up a HUGE mountain of evidence revealing that Todd is, of course, full of shit. TG finally declares he's a cheater, removes all his scores, bans him for life, and contacts the Guiness Book of World Records to have Todd's award striped. [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/showthread.php/175364-Dispute-Dick-Moreland-Atari-2600-VCS-Dragster-NTSC-Game-1-Difficulty-B-Fastest-Time-Player-Todd-Rogers-Score-05-51?p=945909&viewfull=1#post945909[/url] [quote]Based on the complete body of evidence presented in this official dispute thread, Twin Galaxies administrative staff has unanimously decided to remove all of Todd Rogers scores as well as ban him from participating in our competitive leaderboards. We have notified Guinness World Records of our decision.[/quote] and they wrote their own article on it as well [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/104/twin-galaxies-dragster-dispute-concludes-with-banning-of-todd-rogers/5[/url] wat a spectacular shitshow

About fucking time.

Finally

also it can't be emphasized enough just how frowned upon it was for anyone to speak out about Todd for the longest time [QUOTE=postal;53089882]So thanks to stuff like the documentary 'King of Kong', the Donkey Kong world record battles are probably one of the main things people think of when they hear about Twin Galaxies. For the last 3 and a half years it's just been two guys going back and forth on the record, and one of them (the world recorder holder until only last month) just chimed in on this whole dispute [img]https://i.imgur.com/wM5mHfq.png[/img] that next to last paragraph. yeaaa it's probably about time for TG to just die already[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://i.ytimg.com/vi/0ClSU_6B-v8/hqdefault.jpg[/IMG] Not surprised at all. Glad they're yanking all his listings and "accomplishments." EDIT: How did he cheat in 1982 dragster as the 2600 didn't have a action replay or anything like that? I remember reading a ton about that high score, but I can't see how he cheated unless he simply lied about his score. Oh wait that's what he did. Shocked they accepted it with zero proof. Lying about one's accomplishments in a game. That's about the lowest as you can possibly stoop.

So, do I win anything by being one of the 3 people who guessed this outcome correctly on[URL="https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1591866&p=53088389&viewfull=1#post53088389"] your poll[/URL] (it says 6 people now but these other 3 are scummy cheaters)

I wouldn't be too sure it's over. It looks like Todd was just the least competent faker - plenty of the other records are suspicious AF, and there's already circumstantial evidence of TG staffers conspiring to validate false records for each other to bypass the no-self-entry rule.

So fucking confused as to why anyone would fight tooth and nail to defend him?

Ben Heck even built what was essentially a TAS Machine that works with real hardware and sat down with Todd and had Todd provide guidance for the inputs to try to prove it and they still never got lower than 5.57 :v: [video=youtube;qfXwSYzEjcE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=qfXwSYzEjcE[/video]

#ToddIsReal #IstandWithTodd as only said by the stupid

[QUOTE=Zeos;53091978]So fucking confused as to why anyone would fight tooth and nail to defend him?[/QUOTE] Two hypotheses: Some people are just innate contrarians. 9/11 nutjobs, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers... as long as someone is taking a position, someone will take the opposite just out of spite. Some people may have a vested personal interest in discouraging deeper investigation into Twin Galaxies records... like, for instance, people who also hold falsified records in the TG database.

[QUOTE=gman003-main;53091990]Two hypotheses: Some people are just innate contrarians. 9/11 nutjobs, flat earthers, anti-vaxxers... as long as someone is taking a position, someone will take the opposite just out of spite. Some people may have a vested personal interest in discouraging deeper investigation into Twin Galaxies records... like, for instance, people who also hold falsified records in the TG database.[/QUOTE] i mean sure but I think it's mostly just because Todd Roger's is famous as hell as far as record breaking gamers go, even having a spot in the Guinness Book of World Records. his very presence on TG helped keep them relevant. Losing him AND finding out how shit their score entry system was for the longest time such that it'd allow people like Todd to get on there would be crushing for them, so it's not surprising so many people fought against it even in the face of undeniable proof. Funny and sad, but not surprising. but god the lengths people went to justify keeping Todd on there l o l

If he was just lying about his records with no proof, why didn't someone else just come along and go "hey I did it in 5.49"? I mean, any kind of world record claim is just a joke if they don't require some hard evidence.

[QUOTE=Loofiloo;53092014]If he was just lying about his records with no proof, why didn't someone else just come along and go "hey I did it in 5.49"? I mean, any kind of world record claim is just a joke if they don't require some hard evidence.[/QUOTE] Well because Todd had a TG referee (who turned out to be a child rapist) fully backing him and that was all it'd take to justify listing a score for TG incredibly enough, and to top it off Todd was at one point a referee himself and apparently able to enter his own scores lol (tho he wasn't really supposed to). what a great system.

Did anyone else misread the title as banned from life? I'm curious how many other scores are faked, considering Todd was also a referee.

Finally Todd is perma'd.

[QUOTE=Loofiloo;53092014]If he was just lying about his records with no proof, why didn't someone else just come along and go "hey I did it in 5.49"? I mean, any kind of world record claim is just a joke if they don't require some hard evidence.[/QUOTE] He got the scores accepted by either entering them himself using his privilege as a staff member, or by having one of his staff member friends "verify" and add them in for him.

It's insane to me how long thoses scores stayed when it's virtually impossible to get his "WR" in many games by simple addition logic. And in the end all of his lies must have hurt speedrunning of thoses games as a whole, with people not bothering to run games because of a insanely high fake WR. This whole website is a joke.

[QUOTE=Hilton;53092043]Finally Todd is perma'd.[/QUOTE] finally the mods do their jo- wait [QUOTE=Loth;53092054]It's insane to me how long thoses scores stayed when it's virtually impossible to get his "WR" in many games by simple addition logic. And in the end all of his lies must have hurt speedrunning of thoses games as a whole, with people not bothering to run games because of a insanely high fake WR. This whole website is a joke.[/QUOTE] I hope that they work hard on legitimizing themselves as a website because this kind of delegitimized it quite a bit but removing him is a good step in the right direction

Referees just shouldn't have scores at all in TG, honestly. Way too much potential for conflict of interest.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;53092068]Referees just shouldn't have scores at all in TG, honestly. Way too much potential for conflict of interest.[/QUOTE] The whole way the website is completely flawed. Theres a reason every every other speedrunning sites don't do it this way.

I find it funny how [URL="http://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/104/twin-galaxies-dragster-dispute-concludes-with-banning-of-todd-rogers/5"]the Twin Galaxies official statement[/URL] makes it sound like the testimony of a former TG Ref held the most weight in their decision, not the overwhelming amount of digital proof the scores were impossible. Guess the 'human element' still mattered in the end, right? [QUOTE]Based on the information provided by Mruczek regarding his time as a Twin Galaxies Referee, his personal relationship with Todd Rogers, and his various personal research into many of the scores provided by Rogers, it could be concluded that this didn’t just strengthen the case studies provided by analytical voices like Omnigamer and Ben Heck. It also brought the same level of legitimate concern to an alarming many of Rogers’ other scores. This reasoning likely led to the decision provided by Twin Galaxies Adjudication to remove all of Rogers’ scores from the Twin Galaxies database, instead of just the Dragster score.[/QUOTE] Also interesting that their official dispute system was only "released around halfway into 2017".

So does he now hold a world record for most revoked records on a single day or something? Because Todd is the kind of fuck who would want that, a records is a record no matter how ill gotten after all!

[QUOTE=hexpunK;53092146]So does he now hold a world record for most revoked records on a single day or something? Because Todd is the kind of fuck who would want that, a records is a record no matter how ill gotten after all![/QUOTE] In the end Todd has the last laugh, the final win, the grand victory after all He gets 'longest held fake record' as well, so think of it as a double win for him

is twin galaxies even necessary anymore? referees don't seem needed since the advent of livestreaming and self-policing.

[quote=the smartest poster on a speedrunning forum]As far as the TAS, it is just that a tool-assisted speedrun. They do not take the human element into consideration at all. If anyone has played this game for longer than an hour you know that it takes a great amount of skill and timing to play at an elite level.[/quote] please have mercy

I remember a documentary talking about the Dragster record and saying something along the lines of, "the score happened because of a glitch and that it was impossible to emulate or recreate without the original game" or some shit, so using TAS was out of the question to confirm he cheated. Good to hear that it was bullshit the whole time because I always thought how it makes no sense that someone could get a record like that, some one in a billion type occurrence.

[QUOTE=Cpn Crunch21;53092672]I remember a documentary talking about the Dragster record and saying something along the lines of, "the score happened because of a glitch and that it was impossible to emulate or recreate without the original game" or some shit, so using TAS was out of the question to confirm he cheated. Good to hear that it was bullshit the whole time because I always thought how it makes no sense that someone could get a record like that, some one in a billion type occurrence.[/QUOTE] O that reminds me, I forgot to mention in the timeline but it's worth also taking into account that very recently (i think after this drama started?) TG asked the original creator of the game if he thought the score was possible, and he said yes. But again, none of that shit matters if a TAS shows it can't be done under any circumstances. The defense around this record basically revolved entirely around "This credible guy says it's possible!" and somehow that trumped "this TAS and everything else shows it's absolutely impossible" [editline]29th January 2018[/editline] [url]http://www.twingalaxies.com/feed_details.php/87/dragster-designer-without-a-shadow-of-a-doubt-about-todd-rogers-record/1[/url] yea here it is. Posted January 23rd, so right when the Apollo_Legend video went live. [editline]29th January 2018[/editline] [quote]“I had email discussions with Omnigamer,” Crane added, “who in support of a book he was preparing to publish, did a code analysis to try to determine the best possible score on Dragster. I’m sure you are aware of his work. While he is certain that his analysis is definitive, I would not be so sure, even if I had done the analysis myself. I can’t tell you how many times over a 35 year career making games that I thought I had identified the best and fastest way to play a game, only to be proven wrong by a 14 year old game player who came at it in a unique way.”[/quote] it's a fucking game that takes less than 10 seconds to beat and is played with like, one button and a control stick. why do people keep insisting that there's some magical method todd must've used that nobody could possibly have figured out lol

O also, for people wondering what the Guinness Book of World Records is gonna do, looks like we already got our answer: like an hour after this news broke, the link to Todd's world record page on their site [url]http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/106130-longest-standing-videogame-record[/url] has been deleted. RIP

[QUOTE=postal;53092725]O also, for people wondering what the Guinness Book of World Records is gonna do, looks like we already got our answer: like an hour after this news broke, the link to Todd's world record page on their site [url]http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/106130-longest-standing-videogame-record[/url] has been deleted. RIP[/QUOTE] Archive link of the above from before the nuke. [url]http://web.archive.org/web/20180129171456/http://www.guinnessworldrecords.com/world-records/106130-longest-standing-videogame-record[/url]