VW Engineer Sentenced 40 Months Jail in Diesel Case - Sensationalist Headlines

[url]http://www.reuters.com/article/us-volkswagen-emissions-sentencing-idUSKCN1B51YP?utm_campaign=trueAnthem:+Trending+Content&utm_content=59a05e9b04d301050bce8161&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter[/url] [QUOTE]A federal judge in Detroit sentenced former engineer James Liang to 40 months in prison on Friday for his role in Volkswagen AG’s (VOWG_p.DE) multiyear scheme to sell diesel cars that generated more pollution than U.S. clean air rules allowed. U.S. District Court Judge Sean Cox also ordered Liang to pay a $200,000 fine, 10 times the amount sought by federal prosecutors. Cox said he hoped the prison sentence and fine would deter other auto industry engineers and executives from similar schemes to deceive regulators and consumers. Liang was part of a long-term conspiracy that perpetrated a “stunning fraud on the American consumer,” Cox said, as the defendant’s family looked on in the courtroom. “This is a very serious and troubling crime against our economic system.” Liang pleaded guilty earlier this year to misleading regulators, and had cooperated with U.S. law enforcement officials investigating Volkswagen. Prosecutors last week recommended that Liang, 63, receive a three-year prison sentence, reflecting credit for his months of cooperation with the U.S. investigation of Volkswagen’s diesel emissions fraud. Liang could have received a five-year prison term under federal sentencing guidelines. Liang’s lawyers had asked for a sentence of home detention and community service. Liang can appeal the sentence, Cox said.[/QUOTE]

Why did VW do it anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not exactly inside this whole thing, but apparently the correction they did to fix this even boosted power, supposedly also putting emissions down by a bit, and also making mpg a little worse. I don't know how true this is, because its apparently a "mileage may vary" situation of some people saying A and other people saying B. [editline]26th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Vodkavia;52616551]Pretty light sentence considering how much lung damage all that excess particulate has certainly caused.[/QUOTE] Probably because it was part of a deal, and also because I don't think they give all that much importance to it. It also seems like it "isn't that big of a deal", when you compare it to decated coal runners or really old and busted diesels. I'd bet those two kinds of cars are doing WAY MORE worse than those botched vehicles. I bet even my car, which is neither decated nor old enough to be busted, is shitting out more dirt than these.

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52616559]Why did VW do it anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not exactly inside this whole thing, but apparently the correction they did to fix this even boosted power, supposedly also putting emissions down by a bit, and also making mpg a little worse. I don't know how true this is, because its apparently a "mileage may vary" situation of some people saying A and other people saying B.[/QUOTE] It gave VW an edge against their competitors. It kept their cars "within" regulation, yet because they were actively circumventing the tests, the cars performed much differently outside of the test. So they could tout all this marketing lingo and attract customers, and customers would drive the car and feel a massive difference compared to other brands. I know that a lot of people who listened to VW's recall and got their cars "fixed" ended up with shittier mpg, engine problems and a markedly noticeable loss in power, to the point where they were getting up in arms over it and saying it completely changed the vehicle they were sold.

scapegoated by the company and shifting blame to a singular person, love it the board of directors are the ones accountable, not some engineer doing what he's told

[QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52616559]Why did VW do it anyway?[/QUOTE] Bypass EPA regulations with a cheat system. the emissions it made can expel 10x-40x more than the legal limit. heart disease and lung problems can be a thing with long exposure. tl;dr the germans tried to gas the world again. john oliver talked about it [video=youtube;V-p4gB-23tA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-p4gB-23tA[/video]

This is why software engineers need licenses/unions. You would not ask a civil engineer to use lower safety margins on structures, but it's perfectly acceptable to do so for software.

[QUOTE=LAMB SAUCE;52616681]scapegoated by the company and shifting blame to a singular person, love it the board of directors are the ones accountable, not some engineer doing what he's told[/QUOTE] other company employees are also in the process of being charged. Liang was the lowest amongst them, so some higher ups are being targeted for sure. that being said, I do believe more members of the company should be held accountable, though the article makes a strong point of saying Liang was pivotal towards this. VW told him to find a way to circumvent the emissions tests. He should have used his own judgement to realise shit could go wrong if it was discovered. He's as much to blame and I don't feel he's being scapegoated.

If the higher ups get away with the same, less, or no sentence, then corporate social responsibility has failed us and the whole concept will be shot down with distrust

This actually is quite huge, and something software writers need to know. Just because your business told you to do something doesn't mean that you're remotely safe to do it.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52616714]This actually is quite huge, and something software writers need to know. Just because your business told you to do something doesn't mean that you're remotely safe to do it.[/QUOTE] You're stuck between a rock and a hard place

Is such a lengthy sentence and an even more excessive fine reasonable for him, though? I know he was involved in this but at the end of the day it's hard not to look at this as a man being scapegoated so that higher figures in the company can escape the blame. I know it's arguable that he could've told VW no to the changes but wouldn't that have potentially cost him his job? Not that ethics should be thrown entirely aside but given how whistleblowers/"ethical" people have been treated in the past it's a little easier to understand.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52616714]This actually is quite huge, and something software writers need to know. Just because your business told you to do something doesn't mean that you're remotely safe to do it.[/QUOTE] Kind of fucked up though, isn't it? If the dude said no he'd almost certainly have been fired, and without this whole fiasco being discovered there wouldn't have been much he could do. Target the decision makers, not the people who were told to implement it.

didn't harley davidson do essentially the same thing and get away with it?

[QUOTE=Araknid;52616834]didn't harley davidson do essentially the same thing and get away with it?[/QUOTE] Uhh, no, Harley Davidson doesn't offer a diesel engine in their bikes and far as I'm aware they never have. [QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;52616559]Why did VW do it anyway? Correct me if I'm wrong, because I'm not exactly inside this whole thing, but apparently the correction they did to fix this even boosted power, supposedly also putting emissions down by a bit,[B] and also making mpg a little worse[/B].[/quote] Here's your answer. They wanted the highest MPG with the lowest emissions, and since they couldn't do both at one time, they decided to rig the system to make it [i]think[/i] they could. [quote] I'd bet those two kinds of cars are doing WAY MORE worse than those botched vehicles. I bet even my car, which is neither decated nor old enough to be busted, is shitting out more dirt than these.[/QUOTE] It is way worse than coal-rolling douchnozzles and clattery old 80s heaps, on the basis that for every one bro-dozer with a 15" sewer pipe for an exhaust you have 40 or 50 Jettas and Golfs with the diesel engine. For every one '87 Volvo 240d you have on the road there's 30 or 40 VW TDI's. And those TDI owners aren't trying to make smoke or anything, much to the contrary, they bought what they were told was a much cleaner and much more fuel efficient vehicle. Unlike the bros in the brodozers, TDI drivers were innocent, they weren't trying to pollute for some dumb thrills.

[QUOTE=loopoo;52616693]other company employees are also in the process of being charged. Liang was the lowest amongst them, so some higher ups are being targeted for sure. that being said, I do believe more members of the company should be held accountable, though the article makes a strong point of saying Liang was pivotal towards this. VW told him to find a way to circumvent the emissions tests. He should have used his own judgement to realise shit could go wrong if it was discovered. He's as much to blame and I don't feel he's being scapegoated.[/QUOTE] yes I read the article yes he's being scapegoated. He had the choice of no job Vs doing what he is told. One needs to realize he might have dependents on his income and mortgage etc. no shit he wants to keep his job. the people who made the executive decision to cheat are to blame, not him.

[QUOTE=rampageturke 2;52616722]You're stuck between a rock and a hard place[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;52616776]Kind of fucked up though, isn't it? If the dude said no he'd almost certainly have been fired, and without this whole fiasco being discovered there wouldn't have been much he could do. Target the decision makers, not the people who were told to implement it.[/QUOTE] There are whistle-blower laws to deal with this, though I'm not sure if they're adequate. If they aren't, then they need to be improved. Being told by higher ups to do something you know is illegal is not really an excuse to do it.

[QUOTE=Wii60;52616686][...] tl;dr the germans tried to gas the world again. [...][/QUOTE] Worst part: The companies seem to be getting away with a slap on the wrist here. The only glimpse of hope in the situation is that people here seem to slowly be fed up with the car manufacturers' role and influence too.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52617102]There are whistle-blower laws to deal with this, though I'm not sure if they're adequate. If they aren't, then they need to be improved. Being told by higher ups to do something you know is illegal is not really an excuse to do it.[/QUOTE] someone I knew worked in Banking. there was a massive money-laundering operation going on, he was let in on it. he whistle blew. he's now on the dole and working bottom of the barrel jobs. no bank will touch him. it's destroyed him. he was on a six fig salary, now he's making peanuts. damned if you do, damned if you don't. if you go along with it, you're in the deep end if it gets found out. if you whistle blow, you'll be avoided like the plague. I guess you could back out, but I'm not entirely sure what would happen in that case, if you were made aware of certain things.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52616551]Pretty light sentence considering how much lung damage all that excess particulate has certainly caused.[/QUOTE] No this reeks of sleaze. The ECU in VW's was set up to recognize when the car was undergoing emissions testing, and to drastically alter the enigne's tune to conditions that would run in compliance with the emissions standards for that region. And then in regular service, run in what's essentially cummins mode, which makes the motor way more powerful/drivable, because deisel engines will basically put out power for as much air and fuel as you can stuff in it, [URL="https://youtu.be/qDK86kzgUPg?t=1037"]making it super easy to get a bunch of power out of it[/URL], at the consequence of a very inefficient burn, which doesn't meet the regulations. And so VW PR bragged about how great their engines are, so great that it didn't need certain emission auxiliary parts to bring it line, when in fact the motors were just all set up to cheat emissions testing. One engineer doesn't do this on his own, and one engineer sure as shit doesn't go to his boss and say "hey, our engine is fucked, so i made a cheater system for it and shipped it, mind running it by the higher ups?". This was a top down conspiracy, and yet one randy engineer gets the [I]entire legal brunt of the blame[/I], and as the article says, 10 times the fine that the prosecution was seeking. I have no doubt that he was just doing as he's told, and now he's been robbed of 200 grand and 40 months of his life, for what was doubtless a crime committed by suits. [QUOTE]“This is a very serious and troubling crime against our economic system.”[/QUOTE] Also this is hyperbole. It was a company cheating regulations, not an international conspiracy against the american economy itself. Fuck off

[QUOTE=loopoo;52617162]someone I knew worked in Banking. there was a massive money-laundering operation going on, he was let in on it. he whistle blew. he's now on the dole and working bottom of the barrel jobs. no bank will touch him. it's destroyed him. he was on a six fig salary, now he's making peanuts. damned if you do, damned if you don't. if you go along with it, you're in the deep end if it gets found out. if you whistle blow, you'll be avoided like the plague. I guess you could back out, but I'm not entirely sure what would happen in that case, if you were made aware of certain things.[/QUOTE] This^ Whistleblower laws can't prevent other places from not wanting to hire you after the fact.

[QUOTE=TestECull;52616885]Uhh, no, Harley Davidson doesn't offer a diesel engine in their bikes and far as I'm aware they never have.[/QUOTE] I'm aware of that, I mean that they were cheating emissions tests.

[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;52617251]This^ Whistleblower laws can't prevent other places from not wanting to hire you after the fact.[/QUOTE] Perhaps. They can try working on the potential compensation, and anonymity, if those are lacking. And of course, the punishment to an employee should be relatively minor. The power imbalance between employer and employee does come into it, especially in a job like his where it is fairly tight-knit.

[QUOTE=Matthew0505;52617850]Making your employees to do illegal things with the implied threat of what happens when you don't obey seems to be safe though.[/QUOTE] No? Prosecutors are going after them too according to the article. The company itself has suffered billions in fines and even more in recall costs, etc.. They are paying dearly. The US has even basically stuck one under lock-down [URL="http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html"]to prevent him from escaping to Germany[/URL] where he'd be safe. This engineer is also able to appeal the sentence itself, which perhaps when brought to another court will also get him the lighter sentence his lawyers are seeking, as this court says they're trying to make an example out of him.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52616551]Pretty light sentence considering how much lung damage all that excess particulate has certainly caused.[/QUOTE] Why do people keep saying shit like this Three years in jail is a long time

[QUOTE=Trilby Harlow;52617238]No this reeks of sleaze. The ECU in VW's was set up to recognize when the car was undergoing emissions testing, and to drastically alter the enigne's tune to conditions that would run in compliance with the emissions standards for that region. And then in regular service, run in what's essentially cummins mode, which makes the motor way more powerful/drivable, because deisel engines will basically put out power for as much air and fuel as you can stuff in it, [URL="https://youtu.be/qDK86kzgUPg?t=1037"]making it super easy to get a bunch of power out of it[/URL], at the consequence of a very inefficient burn, which doesn't meet the regulations. And so VW PR bragged about how great their engines are, so great that it didn't need certain emission auxiliary parts to bring it line, when in fact the motors were just all set up to cheat emissions testing. One engineer doesn't do this on his own, and one engineer sure as shit doesn't go to his boss and say "hey, our engine is fucked, so i made a cheater system for it and shipped it, mind running it by the higher ups?". This was a top down conspiracy, and yet one randy engineer gets the [I]entire legal brunt of the blame[/I], and a I have no doubt that he was just doing as he's told, and now he's been robbed of 200 grand and 40 months of his life, for what was doubtless a crime committed by suits. [/QUOTE] This doesnt have to be the case. If you have been pouring your hearth and soul into a new engine design for years and it turns out to not work as intended. Or even worse, regulatons change to make it not work. You can be inclined to cheat the system just to prevent your years of work being scrapped. It is up to the judges to decide what really happened.

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;52617856]No? Prosecutors are going after them too according to the article. The company itself has suffered billions in fines and even more in recall costs, etc.. They are paying dearly. The US has even basically stuck one under lock-down [URL="http://money.cnn.com/2017/03/17/news/companies/volkswagen-executive-denied-bail/index.html"]to prevent him from escaping to Germany[/URL] where he'd be safe. This engineer is also able to appeal the sentence itself, which perhaps when brought to another court will also get him the lighter sentence his lawyers are seeking, as this court says they're trying to make an example out of him.[/QUOTE] Until one of them gets prosecuted and sentenced with jail time, it's a bunch of bullshit. Fining the company doesn't affect any of them individually nearly as much as that software engineer being fined $200,000 and [I]40 months[/I] jail time. There's an implicit threat of losing your job when you go against your employers, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, who knows what this guy's financial situation is. Some people can't afford to risk their job by whistleblowing when they've got a fat mortgage, or a sick family member with outrageous medical costs, or who knows what else. Meanwhile those fat greedy fucks who made that decision to increase profits and abused the power dynamic of employer and employee to make him do something illegal in the first place are getting off basically scot-free. The guy they made do it at the financial equivalent of at gunpoint isn't the person they should be making an example of.

[QUOTE=loopoo;52616642]It gave VW an edge against their competitors. It kept their cars "within" regulation, yet because they were actively circumventing the tests, the cars performed much differently outside of the test. So they could tout all this marketing lingo and attract customers, and customers would drive the car and feel a massive difference compared to other brands. I know that a lot of people who listened to VW's recall and got their cars "fixed" ended up with shittier mpg, engine problems and a markedly noticeable loss in power, to the point where they were getting up in arms over it and saying it completely changed the vehicle they were sold.[/QUOTE] Really? What a fuck up. Only heard about a few cases where it changed mpg for the worst but gave more hp. [editline]27th August 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=TestECull;52616885]Uhh, no, Harley Davidson doesn't offer a diesel engine in their bikes and far as I'm aware they never have. Here's your answer. They wanted the highest MPG with the lowest emissions, and since they couldn't do both at one time, they decided to rig the system to make it [i]think[/i] they could. It is way worse than coal-rolling douchnozzles and clattery old 80s heaps, on the basis that for every one bro-dozer with a 15" sewer pipe for an exhaust you have 40 or 50 Jettas and Golfs with the diesel engine. For every one '87 Volvo 240d you have on the road there's 30 or 40 VW TDI's. And those TDI owners aren't trying to make smoke or anything, much to the contrary, they bought what they were told was a much cleaner and much more fuel efficient vehicle. Unlike the bros in the brodozers, TDI drivers were innocent, they weren't trying to pollute for some dumb thrills.[/QUOTE] I'd love to see tests on this though. Pre emission car vs straight piped vs just old cat Starting to see a lot of "koffings" on the road, and I do wonder how much are they shitting out, because even as someone who admittedly doesn't cares much about emissions, I get a bit alarmed when I whiff in a bit of air mixed with burnt diesel or see a black cloud of smoke that almost looks like an actual forest fire.

[QUOTE=taipan;52618096]This doesnt have to be the case. If you have been pouring your hearth and soul into a new engine design for years and it turns out to not work as intended. Or even worse, regulatons change to make it not work. You can be inclined to cheat the system just to prevent your years of work being scrapped. It is up to the judges to decide what really happened.[/QUOTE] there was never an issue of the engines not working as intended. every diesel engine can be made to meet modern emissions regulations, it is just a matter of installing exhaust after-treatment. VW thought they could simply cheat and get away with not installing that equipment, to save on cost, and now they are in hot water.