Transgender weightlifter sparks criticism after competition win - Sensationalist Headlines

[t]https://s.yimg.com/dh/ap/default/170319/art-lift2.jpg[/t] [quote]Laurel Hubbard, 39, won the women's over 90kg division at the Australian International competition in Melbourne on Sunday, but the win has caused a stir with some believing she had an unfair advantage. Her combined total of 268kg was nearly 20kg better than Samoan runner-up Iuniarra Sipaia, with another 20kg back to the next lifter in the field. While her eligibility passed the International Olympic Committee's criteria, Hubbard's win was met with criticism from Australian competitors who believe a transgender athlete in the female weightlifting category was not an equal playing field. She transitioned in her mid-30s and recent improvements have lifted her to a lofty women's ranking. Another lifter told New Zealand TV news station 1News Now Hubbard's entry into the female category was unfair to other competitors. "We all deserve to be on an even playing field," the weightlifter said. "It's difficult when you believe that you're not. If its not even, why are we doing the sport?" she said. In an interview with the New Zealand news program, prominent sportswriter Phil Gifford said Hubbard had every right to compete with the women after passing "straightforward" hormone regulations. "It's testosterone levels which is a much more scientific way of measuring male gender, female gender than anything else that is currently known. "And Lauren has passed all of those tests over the last 12 months," he said. Olympic Weightlifting New Zealand said it followed the policy of the International Olympic Committee and the world weightlifting governing body in allowing Hubbard to compete in the women's division. The IOC acknowledges athletes as male or female, with no categorisation as transgender.[/quote] [url]https://au.news.yahoo.com/a/34720066/kiwi-transgender-weightlifter-laurel-hubbards-win-causes-stir-among-female-aussie-competitors/#page1[/url] [url]http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399[/url]

Reminds me of the one wrestler in similiar circumstances not to long ago, however: [QUOTE]In an interview with the New Zealand news program, prominent sportswriter Phil Gifford said Hubbard had every right to compete with the women after passing "straightforward" hormone regulations. "It's testosterone levels which is a much more scientific way of measuring male gender, female gender than anything else that is currently known. "And Lauren has passed all of those tests over the last 12 months," he said.[/QUOTE] If she passed hormone tests that would be considered fair in the women's category then what's the problem? Seems pretty clear cut.

Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.

[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;51988598]Reminds me of the one wrestler in similiar circumstances not to long ago, however: If she passed hormone tests that would be considered fair in the women's category then what's the problem? Seems pretty clear cut.[/QUOTE] She was a man for 35 years. Some how I think the muscle and bones growth (along with wider shoulders etc) would just dissapear.

[QUOTE=LoneWolf_Recon;51988598]Reminds me of the one wrestler in similiar circumstances not to long ago, however: If she passed hormone tests that would be considered fair in the women's category then what's the problem? Seems pretty clear cut.[/QUOTE] [quote]She transitioned in her mid-30s and recent improvements have lifted her to a lofty women's ranking.[/quote] it's probably this. There's been testosterone ~flowing~ through her body for >30 years, which has some pretty permanent effects regarding bones, muscle n shit iirc. Changes people get from hormones greatly diminish if they start later than 25 or so iirc, with the most optimal time for transitioning being when natural puberty would have occurred. Ofc if people begin investigating and find what I said to be the accurate answer, that's a pretty shitty situation for late transitioning athletes. You can't have them compete with men because.. duh, you can't have them compete with women because of the aforementioned reasons, and you can't have them compete against themselves just because of sheer quantity making it unviable.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] God damn I would love to watch The Steroid Olympics

[QUOTE=thelurker1234;51988628]it's probably this. There's been testosterone ~flowing~ through her body for >30 years, which has some pretty permanent effects regarding bones, muscle n shit iirc. Changes people get from hormones greatly diminish if they start later than 25 or so iirc, with the most optimal time for transitioning being when natural puberty would have occurred. Ofc if people begin investigating and find what I said to be the accurate answer, that's a pretty shitty situation for late transitioning athletes. You can't have them compete with men because.. duh, you can't have them compete with women because of the aforementioned reasons, and you can't have them compete against themselves just because of sheer quantity making it unviable.[/QUOTE] Ah makes sense, however unlike the wrestler story who was actively on HRT (FTM), Hubbard wasn't on anything performance enhancing. Forgive my lack of knowledge on the matter but whose to say that a person who didn't go through any transitions and just had the genetics to be big boned/muscled/etc shouldn't be allowed to compete?

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] Fun fact: Everyone's actually okay with separating athletes by gender and if you turn it into a ~~~~spectrum~~~~ because of that .00001 of the population who thinks it's fair to be a man for 35 years and then perform as a woman, you're going to do a thousand times more harm than good.

[QUOTE=Arc Nova;51988629]God damn I would love to watch The Steroid Olympics[/QUOTE] Watch strongman competitions with people like Eddie Hall, it's pretty much that

Most likely they will probably reform the rules soon for transgender people competing. I wouldn't be surprised if you soon need to have started using hormones below a certain age to even compete in for eg women class if you were born male. Like above posters said testosterone have some permanent affects on bone structure and muscle growth and makes it just hopeless for non trans woman to compete.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] If you have a normal bracket, and introduce the equivalent of a steroid bracket, that normal bracket is now going to be under shadowed by cheaters to the point where people who normally don't use steroids will be using steroids. People want to see the best.

I may not have the popular opinion, but I have to agree with the other women athletes. This would seem quite unfair to me as well if I were competing. I'm glad I don't have to make any decisions on a touchy subject like this.

These competitions should be separated by sex and not gender. Why we're splitting a contest of physical strength by a mental and emotional construct is nonsensical. While you can change your mental state of mind and how other people see you, you can only change your biology so much.

[QUOTE=Fapplejack;51988785]These competitions should be separated by sex and not gender. Why we're splitting a contest of physical strength by a mental and emotional construct is nonsensical. While you can change your mental state of mind and how other people see you, you can only chance your biology so much.[/QUOTE] The person transitioned, though.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51988800]The person transitioned, though.[/QUOTE] Yeah, it's a pretty terrible argument that ignores what happens when people transition, and the variance between one sex. We might have a conundrum with late transitioners with great lingering effects. But people who transition at like 15? There shouldn't be anything to worry about.

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51988745]If you have a normal bracket, and introduce the equivalent of a steroid bracket, that normal bracket is now going to be under shadowed by cheaters to the point where people who normally don't use steroids will be using steroids. People want to see the best.[/QUOTE] That's like saying that people don't watch lightweights or college football because "they want to see the best" so they only watch heavyweights and the NFL, etc. Watching a guy who can't feed themselves because of their steroid muscles lift a train is novel yeah, but watching a guy who's dedicated enough to train his natural muscle to the point he can lift a car or something is far more impressive and interesting to see really. Also there are a plethora of sport puritans who would probably still hold steroid and drug use bracket as a non-sportsman-like bracket and probably not watch it. Sports aren't about novelty for most fans I think, yeah there's novelty in sports but I think the actual spirit of the game lives true to a greater degree than you're giving it credit. [QUOTE=Tone Float;51988701]Fun fact: Everyone's actually okay with separating athletes by gender and if you turn it into a ~~~~spectrum~~~~ because of that .00001 of the population who thinks it's fair to be a man for 35 years and then perform as a woman, you're going to do a thousand times more harm than good.[/QUOTE] Lol what are you?

Training and being able to lift a car and be 100 % natural lol

[QUOTE=freaka;51988960]Training and being able to lift a car and be 100 % natural lol[/QUOTE] Regardless of the realistic possibility for the example, the analogy is still valid because of the difference between the examples, thanks.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] Lol, you don't know what you are talking about. Women sport exists because women simply can not compete with men. Every record in the world is held by men and each record is 10-15 percent better than a female record. That doesn't sound much, but do you know what only 10-15% difference means in sport ? It is the difference between world class athlete and a amateur. So with your solution, what you would end up with is sport with over 90% men and the rest are women that end up being last on every competition. [QUOTE=Ishwoo;51988627]She was a man for 35 years. Some how I think the muscle and bones growth (along with wider shoulders etc) would just dissapear.[/QUOTE] It's basically like an athlete was using steroids and growth enhancing hormones his entire life, and then he gets clean for a year and now "he's all natural" and shit and can compete in the Olympics. This should not be allowed.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988922]That's like saying that people don't watch lightweights or college football because "they want to see the best" so they only watch heavyweights and the NFL, etc. Watching a guy who can't feed themselves because of their steroid muscles lift a train is novel yeah, but watching a guy who's dedicated enough to train his natural muscle to the point he can lift a car or something is far more impressive and interesting to see really. Also there are a plethora of sport puritans who would probably still hold steroid and drug use bracket as a non-sportsman-like bracket and probably not watch it. Sports aren't about novelty for most fans I think, yeah there's novelty in sports but I think the actual spirit of the game lives true to a greater degree than you're giving it credit.[/QUOTE] In wrestling, each of the weight classes has it's own meta so all of them are entertaining to watch. Same goes for college football, that shit is hardcore and arguably more entertaining to watch than professional football. Weightlifting has weight classes but when you introduce subclasses is those class that determine the amount of testosterone one has, then it's just going to be a muddled mess.

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988966]Regardless of the realistic possibility for the example, the analogy is still valid because of the difference between the examples, thanks.[/QUOTE] The weight class differences between weights in male and female competitions are fucking massive, you can't compare them as fair at all. Men world record at 77 kg class clean and jerk is 214 kg while the woman 75 kg class is 161 kg. It's not valid at all and this is why the system needs reforms because it's fucking stupid differences and not long all records will be broken by transgender females.

I guess I'm just glad I never want to get into sports... At least I can stay out of this particular part of the debate...

[QUOTE=Fapplejack;51988785]These competitions should be separated by sex and not gender. Why we're splitting a contest of physical strength by a mental and emotional construct is nonsensical. While you can change your mental state of mind and how other people see you, you can only change your biology so much.[/QUOTE] Ah, Yes! The classic of "You'll never be a real [gender]"! Gosh, you sure help me cope with the crushing burden of knowing the skin I live in is a false approximation of what I really wish I was! You really, really make my life easier! Gosh it's like that's why it's fucking soul destroying to be trans.. Really Makes U Think..

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] Yea because being a professional womans soccer team that can't beat 17 and under boys high school team wouldn't be absolutely fucking soul crushing if you had to do it all the time lmao How would your idea even work? hahahahaha the men's teams would always be considerably younger than females

[QUOTE=F.X Clampazzo;51988619]Tbh I find the idea of separating athletes by gender to be stupid anyway. If we just regulate it in hormone brackets based on the results of these tests we can so easily do, we'd put people on a much more fair playing field and we wouldn't have to worry about this or, as an added bonus, steroid abuse because high t-count would just throw you into a bracket where you're competing fairly with all the other drug pushing muscle heads.[/QUOTE] Im gonna point to this post next time someone tells me FP isn't full of far left liberals. How does a post like this go over uncontroversially? [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] There simply is no solution to the transgender athlete problem. Even if they started taking hormones at a young age (I don't think they should be able to until age 18 but whatever) there is still a measurable advantage in bone structure and musculature. They shouldn't be allowed to compete like this. I hope dumb stories like this stop popping up every week and sports don't get shat up with this nonsense.

I'm expected to believe this woman got ~30 or so years of steroid exposure and is a fair match for women who didn't. Right.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51989645]Im gonna point to this post next time someone tells me FP isn't full of far left liberals. How does a post like this go over uncontroversially?[/QUOTE] It didn't?

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51989645]Im gonna point to this post next time someone tells me FP isn't full of far left liberals. How does a post like this go over uncontroversially?[/QUOTE] It didn't though? People are disagreeing with him and talking about it. Unless by controversy you mean people losing their shit over it. But he was just throwing out a suggestion that we figure out a new way to segregate sports, and how he think he could work. It's a pretty innocent proposition about an unimportant topic. That'd be disappointing as fuck if people blew up about it.

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51989645]Im gonna point to this post next time someone tells me FP isn't full of far left liberals. How does a post like this go over uncontroversially? [editline]20th March 2017[/editline] There simply is no solution to the transgender athlete problem. Even if they started taking hormones at a young age (I don't think they should be able to until age 18 but whatever) there is still a measurable advantage in bone structure and musculature. They shouldn't be allowed to compete like this. I hope dumb stories like this stop popping up every week and sports don't get shat up with this nonsense.[/QUOTE] I could just as easily say that certain well-built cis women have an advantage over other cis women due to their natural bone structure and musculature. What makes them any different from a transgender woman who transitioned early in their life and was on puberty blockers prior to that?

[QUOTE=Pantz Master;51989645]Im gonna point to this post next time someone tells me FP isn't full of far left liberals. How does a post like this go over uncontroversially? [/QUOTE] Lol it didn't at all but okay guy. If anything it sparked an interesting conversation about how sports are segregated, which is good. The only potential "point" to be taken here is that some people are semi-rude about disagreeing with a "far left liberal" (lol) point. And tbh I wouldn't even go much further than saying mildly impolite, since it's pretty hard to gather tone usually from an internet forum post. Anyway, yeah you guys are probably right it'd be pretty hard to properly implement a hormone bracket. Though imo everyone downplaying women to "being equal to a 17 year old boy's soccer team" are maybe being a bit sexist imo, not too much to be socially unacceptable,just a little bit biased toward the "all men are physically better than women" thing. Women are, imo, just as capable as most men, and those who are dedicated athletes are pretty damn good athletes. I still think it could be done in theory, but you'd have to really revolutionise the way sports are handled too, probably more co-ed and less gender segregated teams, idk. It'd be a challenge for sure.